Freewill vs Predestination

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

And still, we love you 17th, (sigh)

And I respect you people.

Originally Posted by InLove

Well, I see your point, Angel, but I'll just say that there is still communication. I trust that there always has been. What I am saying is that God has provided an avenue.

If I were to say more right here, it would derail the thread--and it isn't my thread to derail.

InPeace,
InLove

True, sorry my bad.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

And I respect you people.



True, sorry my bad.

In the immortal words of Jimmy Cagney -

"Shee, two kinds of attitude get you respect around here...one is blessedness like the shister there, and the other is cussedness, like myeee...!"

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

In the immortal words of Jimmy Cagney -

"Shee, two kinds of attitude get you respect around here...one is blessedness like the shister there, and the other is cussedness, like myeee...!"

I have no idea who he is lol... But sounds like he has a lisp... :O I just go with the "Give respect to get respect."

[Silas]

17th Angel

That's a load of crap...... Ugh my eyes are watering... such a strong aroma of self righteousness coming off this one...

The crux of the issue between man and God is that we call ourselves good when He calls us evil. Be certian that your creator God calls you evil and that you need Christ' righteousness to be seen as "good" in His eyes. Apart from Christ, you are the worst of people, because it is only by his grace that you even obey His commandments. You do this unknowingly and claim you do it for yourself. If you are found without Christ on the day of your judgement, you will suffer God's Holy Wrath for not only spurning His grace, but for taking the credit for the good you do when it is ONLY by God's grace you do it.

I know many GOOD people... You don't need to have your god to be a good person. You and all other christians are not better than me or non christians...

Bingo! I am no better than you or any body. Apart from Christ, I am Hitler for lack of God giving me opportunity to be as evil as I can be. I would ask you to judge yourself by Jesus, since He is God's standard of goodness. Dont judge yourself by other people, because compared to them, you probabably are a good person. But again, Judge yourself by Jesus and the Law of God (The Ten Commandments) and let the weight of the law crush you. If you feel that you need forgivess from God for your law breaking, call out to Christ and He will gladly save you!

[17th Angel]

The crux of the issue between man and God is that we call ourselves good when He calls us evil. Be certian that your creator God calls you evil and that you need Christ' righteousness to be seen as "good" in His eyes. Apart from Christ, you are the worst of people, because it is only by his grace that you even obey His commandments. You do this unknowingly and claim you do it for yourself. If you are found without Christ on the day of your judgement, you will suffer God's Holy Wrath for not only spurning His grace, but for taking the credit for the good you do when it is ONLY by God's grace you do it.

Hmmm so if I do something good, god should take the credit? If I do something evil? Oh I guess I take the credit for that.... or the devil :O With this being the case.... do we have free will? Or are we simply freaking puppets and your god and satan are two spoilt little children trying to fight over the controls of the puppet and not willing to share the puppet.

Bingo! I am no better than you or any body. Apart from Christ, I am Hitler for lack of God giving me opportunity to be as evil as I can be. I would ask you to judge yourself by Jesus, since He is God's standard of goodness. Dont judge yourself by other people, because compared to them, you probabably are a good person. But again, Judge yourself by Jesus and the Law of God (The Ten Commandments) and let the weight of the law crush you. If you feel that you need forgivess from God for your law breaking, call out to Christ and He will gladly save you!

I do not feel like I need forgivness.. I haven't done anything to ask to be forgiven for... So being humble isn't an option, I am far from humble.

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Repentence -

"In the New Testament, the word translated as 'repentance' is the Greek word μετάνοια (metanoia), "after/behind one's mind", which is a compound word of the preposition 'meta' (after, with), and the verb 'noeo' (to perceive, to think, the result of perceiving or observing). In this compound word the preposition combines the two meanings of time and change, which may be denoted by 'after' and 'different'; so that the whole compound means: 'to think differently after'. Metanoia is therefore primarily an after-thought, different from the former thought; a change of mind accompanied by regret and change of conduct, "change of mind and heart", or, "change of consciousness"."

Source - Wiki

So a person must willing to have a change of heart first about their sin and turn to God.

It is interesting that John the Baptist started his ministry preaching repentence:

"In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." - Matthew 3:1-2

"John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." - Mark 1:4

"...O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance...." - Luke 3:7-8

So repentence seems to be a command to action on the part of the sinner.

And, Look! After John the Baptist, Jesus preached the same thing:

"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." - Matthew 4:17

And Behold! Peter preached the same after Pentacost:

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." - Acts 2:38

Seems this repentence thing is a pre-requisite to getting saved and receiving the Holy Spirit. Am I not correct?

Way to go!!! I was waiting for someone to say this. Yes, Metanoia (repetance) IS a command and pre-requisite for being saved! So the obvious question from you should now be why then do I believe in predestination? Simple. Because metanoia, like Pistis (saving faith), is a gift that God gives, e.g., 2Ti 2:25 Acts, 5:31, Acts 11:18, Acts 2:36-39, etc. If God doesnt give one this gift, they remain in their natural state of loving sin and hating God (totally depraved).

[Silas]

17th Angel

Hmmm so if I do something good, god should take the credit?

Yes, it is by His grace that you do good. It is by His grace that you're breathing His air and not standing before Him being judged as a guilty sinner. You ought to thank Him!

If I do something evil? Oh I guess I take the credit for that.... or the devil :O

If you do something bad, you should take the credit, since all bad desieres come from within you.

With this being the case.... do we have free will?

You have a free will to do all you want and with it, you choose to not repent and come to Christ. Why? Because you dont want to submit to Him, you'd rather be free.

Or are we simply freaking puppets and your god and satan are two spoilt little children trying to fight over the controls of the puppet and not willing to share the puppet.

No. God is God! He's totally Sovereign and in total control. Do not image that He is in Heaven trying to fight satan for souls. Rather, He knows His and is happy! Moreover, is He not willing that any perish but that all of His will come to the faith. Then, He will come back and judge the unrighteous unbelievers in righteousness. I beg you, dont die without the Savior. Do not die spurning God's grace. If anything any Christian said to you concerning sin and why Jesus came, please repent and trust in Jesus and you will be saved.

I do not feel like I need forgivness.. I haven't done anything to ask to be forgiven for... So being humble isn't an option, I am far from humble.

If you say you dont have sin you make God a liar. The sad/scary thing about unbelievers is that they dont even have the grace to see their guilt before God since they choose not to anyway. Have you ever lied before? That makes you a liar in God's eyes. Have you ever looked with lust? That makes you and adulter in God's eyes. Have you ever been angry with a person before? That makes you a murderer in God's eyes. God is THAT PERFECT. He not only judges our actions, but our heart's intent. You have thought things you should not have and you have done things you shouldnt have. God sees ALL your sins: From youth to NOW and He will by no means let the guilty go unpunished. If you repent and trust in Christ, Jesus' righteousness will be credited to you and your crimes will be imputed to Him, where He suffered for them on the cross. Repent and Trust in Christ.

[17th Angel]

Silas, Catholic?



You ever hear the saying "god is perfect, but not a perfectionist..." Whats your thoughts on that?

[Silas]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Silas, Catholic?

You ever hear the saying "god is perfect, but not a perfectionist..." Whats your thoughts on that?

Nah, never heard that saying at all! Its not even biblical...the God of the Bible is both Perfect and a perfectionist. The thing about the unsaved person is that he/she dont love the True and Holy God. They create idols in their minds and say stuff like "my god will not send anyone to hell. he is a god of love." They're are right though, their God will never send anyone to hell because he does not exist. He is a figment of their imagination. Bow to the True and Living God and do not committe idolatry (2nd Commandment). Repent and Trust in Jesus. Oh by the way, Im not a Catholoic. Im just a sinner saved by grace. Oh yeah, and I have prodestant views.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Silas

Nah, never heard that saying at all! Its not even biblical...the God of the Bible is both Perfect and a perfectionist. The thing about the unsaved person is that they dont love this Holy God. They create idols in their minds and say stuff like "my god will not send anyone to hell. he is a god of love." They're right though. They're are right though, their God will never send anyone to hell because he does not exist. He is a figment of their imagination. Bow to the True and Living God and do not committe idolatry (2nd Commandment). Repent and Trust in Jesus. Oh by the way, Im not a Catholoic. Im just a sinner saved by grace. Oh yeah, and I have prodestant views.

Suprising.. You are very hell and brimstone ain't cha? Gives me shivers

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I believe the Bible does advise that one can throw away salvation.

Here is where I get this idea:
(Ezekiel 18:21-24 NIV) [21] "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. [22] None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. [23] Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
[24] "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.


(Matthew 24:10-13 NIV) [10] At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, [11] and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. [12] Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, [13] but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.


(1 Timothy 1:18-19 NIV) [18] Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, [19] holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.


(1 Timothy 6:20-21 NIV) [20] Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, [21] which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you.


(2 Peter 3:17 NIV) Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

(John 15:6 NIV) If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.



Oh, sorry I mis-understood your point a few posts up. I apologize.

v/r

Joshua

I know there are scriptures that insinuate that a person can lose their salvation. Within Christiandom, there are different views concerning Soteriology. Some believe you can lose it because you got it yourself and others feel that since you had nothing to do with it, you cannot lose it and that God will cause you to grow in Holiness whereby you will see Him. I could give you my views on the scriptures you posted, but I think I'll do that another time? For now, I just wanted to say thanks for the apology. Dont sweat it!

[Silas]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Suprising.. You are very hell and brimstone ain't cha? Gives me shivers

Well, it should. God's wrath is not a joke. That said though, I preach Christ Crusified for sin and His Ressurrection to justify Sinners before God. I preach repentence and faith. Yes it entials God's Holiness and wrath, but that shouldnt be your motivation for coming to Christ. If it is, it surely wont last. Your love for sin is larger than your fear of God...oddly enough. Come to Jesus because He left Glory and died for sinners when He didnt even have to. He took God's wrath of sinners behalf that we may have eternal life with God.

Come to Christ for those reasons!

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Silas

Come to Christ for those reasons!

What if he is not one of God's elect? Could he come to Christ on his own?

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Silas

Way to go!!! I was waiting for someone to say this. Yes, Metanoia (repetance) IS a command and pre-requisite for being saved! So the obvious question from you should now be why then do I believe in predestination? Simple. Because metanoia, like Pistis (saving faith), is a gift that God gives, e.g., 2Ti 2:25 Acts, 5:31, Acts 11:18, Acts 2:36-39, etc. If God doesnt give one this gift, they remain in their natural state of loving sin and hating God (totally depraved).

Silas, I have some comments on the verses you referenced:

“And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.” – II Timothy 2:24-26

It is, of course, important to realize the context of this verse. In this pastoral letter to Timothy, Paul is discussing the attitude of how to approach those that are unsaved and caught up in their sin. What I want to point out here is that the catalyst for repentance is the Word of God (teach, instructing those who oppose themselves). The repentance is not in their sins, but to the acknowledging of the Truth. It is a change of mind what someone believes. As the Word of God is preached, the Holy Spirit will stir the hearts of those who hear. God shines the light. It is the giving of hope. But it is the sinner who must recover themselves out of the snare of the devil. The sinner must decide to repent.

“Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Savior, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.” – Acts 5:29-31

Seems here Peter is saying that God exalted Jesus in order for Israel to have a chance to repent, that free access through the torn veil is avaliable. That salvation in Jesus is available. Once they decide to repent, they receive the forgiveness of sins. There is nothing here to suggest that repentance is a causative action by God, only that repentance is available to Israel.

In fact, God did stir their hearts to the preaching of the Word in this case. They were cut to the heart. They knew the truth, yet did not obey it. Why, because they were caught up in their own religion. these were the chief priests, mind you, who laid hands on Peter to put him in jail for preaching in Jesus' name.


“Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.” - Acts 11:16-18

This is the same situation as Israel in the above verses, only this time it speaks of salvation for the Gentiles. Here Peter is relating what happened in regard to Cornelius, the first Gentile convert. Like Israel, salvation is made available to the Gentiles. Again, not a causative action by God, just a simple statement of availability.

“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.’ – Acts 2:36-38

Again, the heart is pricked by the Word of God, but the command is still “Repent” to the sinner. It is only after one repents does God saved and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost that they may be born again. You will notice here that the Word of God pricked their hearts, but they had a different attitude than in the people in Acts 5, for they were a different audience. In verse 41 it says:

"Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

We are talking about the attitude of the heart. There were those who gladly received the Word, because Peter's preaching gave them hope. But I'm quite sure that there were more than three thousand souls that day.

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Cage

What if he is not one of God's elect? Could he come to Christ on his own?

What does scripture say. Does natural man love God? I see a command to seek but none obeying it. What do you think?