Freewill vs Predestination

[Silas]

amen!

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Silas

Some Christians believe that a believer can lose his faith and be unborn again - again, but I dont. As I understand salvation, once a person is born agian, God will for His own glory cause them to grow in santifaction and end in glorification. It doesnt mean that we'll be perfect, it just means we'll be growing in the direction of perfection.

I believe the Bible does advise that one can throw away salvation.

Here is where I get this idea:
(Ezekiel 18:21-24 NIV) [21] "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. [22] None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. [23] Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
[24] "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.


(Matthew 24:10-13 NIV) [10] At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, [11] and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. [12] Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, [13] but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.


(1 Timothy 1:18-19 NIV) [18] Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, [19] holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.


(1 Timothy 6:20-21 NIV) [20] Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, [21] which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you.


(2 Peter 3:17 NIV) Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

(John 15:6 NIV) If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.



Oh, sorry I mis-understood your point a few posts up. I apologize.

v/r

Joshua

[17th Angel]

Silas--
none are good without the grace of God

That's a load of crap...... Ugh my eyes are watering... such a strong aroma of self righteousness coming off this one...

I know many GOOD people... You don't need to have your god to be a good person. You and all other christians are not better than me or non christians...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

That's a load of crap...... Ugh my eyes are watering... such a strong aroma of self righteousness coming off this one...

I know many GOOD people... You don't need to have your god to be a good person. You and all other christians are not better than me or non christians...

There are 6 billion potentially good people. There were 6 billion potentially good people up to this point in time. According to Christ, "good" isn't good enough. The Jews in Palestine were "good people", 2000 years ago, yet the man called Jesus walked among them saying "trust in me"...must have been a reason since His message has lasted 2000 years...

And you are absolutely correct 17th. No Christian is "better" than anyone else... just forgiven, if we accept it.

v/r

Joshua

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

There are 6 billion potentially good people. There were 6 billion potentially good people up to this point in time. According to Christ, "good" isn't good enough. The Jews in Palestine were "good people", 2000 years ago, yet the man called Jesus walked among them saying "trust in me"...must have been a reason since His message has lasted 2000 years...

And you are absolutely correct 17th. No Christian is "better" than anyone else... just forgiven, if we accept it.

v/r

Joshua

Why isn't good, good enough? Why isn't just being who you are good enough? Why do you have to change who you are... What is the point in the "free will" given if you have favourtisim for certain people that choose one thing than the other. I have and never will get the point when you talk of christianity and free will... cause it is pointless. My dog has it's own free will to choose to do what it want's.. It runs out into the back gardens, then comes back in... Oh my! It's jumped on the couch with muddy paws... is it the dogs fault? Or my fault? That it has done this... I could of trainined it that, that was bad and continue to train it, so it becomes a function an automatic "programme" in the dogs head that makes it avoid the couch.... The dog isn't as intelligent as me... Apparently... So it doesn't know any better. Why should it be punished? I think I am waffling on into a void lol... Gonna go have a smoke break... meh.

[InLove]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Why isn't good, good enough? Why isn't just being who you are good enough? Why do you have to change who you are... What is the point in the "free will" given if you have favourtisim for certain people that choose one thing than the other. I have and never will get the point when you talk of christianity and free will... cause it is pointless. My dog has it's own free will to choose to do what it want's.. It runs out into the back gardens, then comes back in... Oh my! It's jumped on the couch with muddy paws... is it the dogs fault? Or my fault? That it has done this... I could of trainined it that, that was bad and continue to train it, so it becomes a function an automatic "programme" in the dogs head that makes it avoid the couch.... The dog isn't as intelligent as me... Apparently... So it doesn't know any better. Why should it be punished? I think I am waffling on into a void lol... Gonna go have a smoke break... meh.

Hey Angel

If I may...let me try this one. First of all (I'll bet you think I am going to say "People are not dogs." Nope, that isn't what I'm going to say. Heck, even Jesus employed man's best maminal friend in at least one analogy. )

First of all, I am assuming that you love your dog, or you wouldn't forgive him for getting your sofa all muddy. You give him his freedom to go in and out, and you take the consequence for his actions. If you chained him up all the time so he couldn't run about and get muddy and return to you, that wouldn't seem much like love. And if he decided one day to dig out from under the garden gate, would you go looking for him? And if he didn't return, wouldn't you wait for him? If you know that you are the best caregiver for him, and you know he is lost, or headed for disaster, wouldn't you even maybe worry or cry? Would you do just about anything to bring him back to you? If you saw him running out in traffic, might you even put yourself in danger to save him? (LOL--I really love animals, can you tell?)

Anyway, if he just decided that he did not want or need you anymore, and just rejected you, would it hurt? But what could you do but let him go? Free will.

I know this is probably not a very good analogy, but I thought maybe I would try it on for size. Don't know if it will fit very well.

As Always--
InPeace,
InLove

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by InLove

Hey Angel

If I may...let me try this one. First of all (I'll bet you think I am going to say "People are not dogs." Nope, that isn't what I'm going to say. Heck, even Jesus employed man's best maminal friend in at least one analogy. )

First of all, I am assuming that you love your dog, or you wouldn't forgive him for getting your sofa all muddy. You give him his freedom to go in and out, and you take the consequence for his actions. If you chained him up all the time so he couldn't run about and get muddy and return to you, that wouldn't seem much like love. And if he decided one day to dig out from under the garden gate, would you go looking for him? And if he didn't return, wouldn't you wait for him? If you know that you are the best caregiver for him, and you know he is lost, or headed for disaster, wouldn't you even maybe worry or cry? Would you do just about anything to bring him back to you? If you saw him running out in traffic, might you even put yourself in danger to save him? (LOL--I really love animals, can you tell?)

Anyway, if he just decided that he did not want or need you anymore, and just rejected you, would it hurt? But what could you do but let him go? Free will.

I know this is probably not a very good analogy, but I thought maybe I would try it on for size. Don't know if it will fit very well.

As Always--
InPeace,
InLove

It is indeed interesting.. My dog hasn't jumped on my couch all muddy... that was just an example lol... I was going to use an example of her puppy days and weak bladder, then thought I best not and quickly made up the couch example. Yup I would be very upset if my dog ran away, but I know this will never happen as she is well trained by me And dogs are really not the idependent creature... They look up to you, you are their respected leader and head of pack. When you are the figure that says when we eat, when we go for a ride, when we go for a walk when we get water when we play... They become dependent on you. And do not challange that, ever.

Although there was one time in her younger puppy days where she rushed my wife, as we got out of the car. So this little bundle of 5stone barged passed her, I tried to dive across the seats to grab her lead and she was gone, running up the road behind us. We were parked next to a four story parking lot, the ones with them winding up roads with tight corners... She just with no fear or concern ran full pelt around this corner... And I just feared the worst, there was no way I was going to catch her. I ran around the corner and she was sat in the middle of the road with her head tilted just staring at sea gulls.... That was quite a scary time \;

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Silas

To be saved, a person must Repent and Trust in Jesus.

Repentence -

"In the New Testament, the word translated as 'repentance' is the Greek word μετάνοια (metanoia), "after/behind one's mind", which is a compound word of the preposition 'meta' (after, with), and the verb 'noeo' (to perceive, to think, the result of perceiving or observing). In this compound word the preposition combines the two meanings of time and change, which may be denoted by 'after' and 'different'; so that the whole compound means: 'to think differently after'. Metanoia is therefore primarily an after-thought, different from the former thought; a change of mind accompanied by regret and change of conduct, "change of mind and heart", or, "change of consciousness"."

Source - Wiki

So a person must willing to have a change of heart first about their sin and turn to God.

It is interesting that John the Baptist started his ministry preaching repentence:

"In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." - Matthew 3:1-2

"John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." - Mark 1:4

"...O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance...." - Luke 3:7-8

So repentence seems to be a command to action on the part of the sinner.

And, Look! After John the Baptist, Jesus preached the same thing:

"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." - Matthew 4:17

And Behold! Peter preached the same after Pentacost:

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." - Acts 2:38

Seems this repentence thing is a pre-requisite to getting saved and receiving the Holy Spirit. Am I not correct?

[InLove]

Thanks for considering my awkward example, Angel. I do understand what you mean about "training". If one is not taught something, can one understand? Well maybe not in the same respect as what we here in "The West" tend to call "traditional". But there are many ways of learning. There is direct experience, for example. I trust that God is God enough to reveal God to anyone--and I will go so far as to say this can happen even when He is not being sought after. But seeking doesn't hurt.

I'd better add that these are my views, and do not necessarily reflect that of all Christians. However, I are one, too.

Predestination is a difficult issue to grasp, particularly when we throw in the concept of free will. For me (not my ego, but in The Spirit), the two do not conflict. At this moment, I cannot expound much on this. But maybe at some point in the future I can, and maybe not right here. (Don't want to confuse the issue anymore than it already is--there are several slightly differing views being presented, even though it can be difficult to pick up on them.) I am certainly no expert theologian, which may or may not be advantageous to understanding in situations such as this.

Well, I know that may not help much, if at all. I just wanted you to know that your thoughts and sentiments are not lost on me.

InPeace,
InLove

[Quahom1]

Free will is not freedom of will. We are not free to do as we please, with no consequences. We are free to choose one way or another. Regardless, there are results that we will deal with, depending on our "choice".

The free will of man with God is "yes, or no", there is no abstention in life. Nor is there "I'll blaze my own path, thank you god". All that is, is a series of "no, no, no, no, no,no,no,no,no,no,no".

Been there, done that, no fun.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by InLove

Thanks for considering my awkward example, Angel. I do understand what you mean about "training". If one is not taught something, can one understand? Well maybe not in the same respect as what we here in "The West" tend to call "traditional". But there are many ways of learning. There is direct experience, for example. I trust that God is God enough to reveal God to anyone--and I will go so far as to say this can happen even when He is not being sought after. But seeking doesn't hurt.

I'd better add that these are my views, and do not necessarily reflect that of all Christians. However, I are one, too.

Predestination is a difficult issue to grasp, particularly when we throw in the concept of free will. For me (not my ego, but in The Spirit), the two do not conflict. At this moment, I cannot expound much on this. But maybe at some point in the future I can, and maybe not right here. (Don't want to confuse the issue anymore than it already is--there are several slightly differing views being presented, even though it can be difficult to pick up on them.) I am certainly no expert theologian, which may or may not be advantageous to understanding in situations such as this.

Well, I know that may not help much, if at all. I just wanted you to know that your thoughts and sentiments are not lost on me.

InPeace,
InLove

So why can't god come and "train" me?

Originally Posted by Quahom1

no".

Been there, done that, no fun.

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt had a blast, changed my ways went there did that decided to go back to where I was to begin with... With hope of a new t-shirt.

[InLove]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

So why can't god come and "train" me?

He can. Maybe He is. Or, like I said, seeking appears to be an option.

InPeace,
InLove

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by InLove

He can. Maybe He is. Or, like I said, seeking appears to be an option.

InPeace,
InLove

This I am sure, shall sound stubborn, evil, sinner!!! and so on and so forth... but, I did my seeking... I found nothing to convince me... So as you logically would do on a search that goes on and on and on with nothing found, you call it off. I would need jesus christ to appear in front of my eyes maybe do a little tap dance and who knows maybe jump through a hoop of fire... I would applaud and be like "There is a god..." OR!! For god himself to appear and squash one of them cream pie things in my face! Or send an angel like he seemed to do in the bible for loads of people.... Why is that so hard to do? I can't figure that... In the bible god speaks to everyone and gives them lil tasks... build a boat, go deliver a message, go free your people... and so on... Why no longer? Why the cease of communication... The best way to get understanding with someone is communication... so err why not use it? Besides there will be someone bound to pop up and squeak "That would eliminate your free will!!" No it wouldn't.. You may think your head is having flash backs from all the substances from your youth and the 70's... You may think you're going nuts... You may realise whats going on and then choose to obey... Or as isiah said... some wouldn't want to obey anywho. So some still would say they were not interested.

[Quahom1]

And still, we love you 17th, (sigh)

[InLove]

Well, I see your point, Angel, but I'll just say that there is still communication. I trust that there always has been. What I am saying is that God has provided an avenue.

If I were to say more right here, it would derail the thread--and it isn't my thread to derail.

InPeace,
InLove