Freewill vs Predestination

[InLove]

Silas--

I may be alone in asking this, but I don't think so. Not that it matters all that much. What are you driving at? Haven't several of us agreed with you that none are good without the grace of God? Whether or not you see grace before faith or the other way around, aren't they connected?

I just don't know why you keep on trying to convince us all of what we already know.

Consider lightening up a little, bro. I cannot figure out who you are preaching to. Yourself?

InPeace (God help me)
InLove

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

What makes you think it was the Father's idea to begin with?...

Because God foreknew that Adam and Eve would sin and therefore He used it to His glory by having Jesus be the "lamb slained before the foudations of the world" and sending Him "in the fullness of time" to do what He purposed. Moreover Acts 2:22-23 seals it:

"Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man clearly attested to you by God with powerful deeds, wonders, and miraculous signsthis man, who was handed over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you executed by nailing him to a cross at the hands of Gentiles."

[Silas]

Originally Posted by InLove

Silas--

I may be alone in asking this, but I don't think so. Not that it matters all that much. What are you driving at? Haven't several of us agreed with you that none are good without the grace of God? Whether or not you see grace before faith or the other way around, aren't they connected?

I just don't know why you keep on trying to convince us all of what we already know.

Consider lightening up a little, bro. I cannot figure out who you are preaching to. Yourself?

InPeace (God help me)
InLove

lol. OK. But thats not what Im talking about now. Im speaking on election: Is it based on God foreseeing that some would believe the gospel or is it because He foresaw that none would believe and therefore chose to save some based on His own choice in choosing them over others?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Silas

Because God foreknew that Adam and Eve would sin and therefore He used it to His glory by having Jesus be the "lamb slained before the foudations of the world" and sending Him "in the fullness of time" to do what He purposed. Moreover Acts 2:22-23 seals it:

"Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man clearly attested to you by God with powerful deeds, wonders, and miraculous signsthis man, who was handed over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you executed by nailing him to a cross at the hands of Gentiles."

Hey, I know my own kids might screw up, but I can hope that they don't...then deal with issues "IF" they do.

Might and will are two different perspectives...

God knew they "might" screw up, but the free will thingy put a question mark out there (so God has to look at what outcomes could occur from the variation of the theme).

...even God has Hope...He invented the thing.

[InLove]

I still say that whatever God chooses is up to Him. Are we in agreement, Silas? If we are, then what else is it that you want to say?

InPeace,
InLove

[Silas]

wil

It all just hurts, man can't choose Jesus and never seek G-d??

Man "wont" choose Jesus. Was there ever a time when you ran from the Lord knowing that He was the truth and worthy of your all? If so, why did you run? Moreover, what finally made you come to Him? Finally, the Scriptures are clear that NONE seek after God. If you say you did pior to God drawing you, you make Him a lair.

You have to be one of the selected??

What does scriptures say?

Silas, I know you mean well. And I so look forward to your understanding in a few years, but for now, I'll guess I'll just have to avoid your posts.

Please do so quietly without writing.

[Silas]

Originally Posted by InLove

I still say that whatever God chooses is up to Him. Are we in agreement, Silas? If we are, then what else is it that you want to say?

InPeace,
InLove

Say thank you Father for loving me when I didnt love you! Say, thank you for softening my harden heart and leading me to see the pain of your Son that I may come to Him in repentance and live. Then say, Lord lead me into all truth that I may pray and live for you the way you desire.

[InLove]

Originally Posted by Silas

Say thank you Father for loving me when I didnt love you! Say, thank you for softening my harden heart and leading me to see the pain of your Son that I may come to Him in repentance and live. Then say, Lord lead me into all truth that I may pray and live for you the way you desire.

Alrighty, then.

Amen.

InPeace,
InLove

[Quahom1]

Only difference between man and God's view of the future is that God can see the ultimate outcome, and we can't. Doesn't mean God already peeked to see man's outcome, He just warned us of one of many outcomes should we continue the way we are going.

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Hey, I know my own kids might screw up, but I can hope that they don't...then deal with issues "IF" they do.

Might and will are two different perspectives...

God knew they "might" screw up, but the free will thingy put a question mark out there (so God has to look at what outcomes could occur from the variation of the theme).

...even God has Hope...He invented the thing.

God knows every choice before we make it. Thats why He knows what we prayer before we say it. So yeah, God has hope, but He's a realist and He knows the outcome of every choice before it is made.

[Quahom1]

Lord, I choose.

Bless my choice.

Amen.

[Silas]

Your smarter and stronger that most men Q. Way to go - glory to you!

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Silas

Your smarter and stronger that most men Q. Way to go - glory to you!

...you don't know the half of it...

[Dondi]

Read Romans 9 please and let the Holy Spirit work. God chooses from the same lump of humanity, some equally wicked men who would never have come to Him, to display His Mercy and left other equally wicked men to do what they want, namely not repent and come to Christ, and then punishes them in the end for not coming. He didnt make them not come (He wants them to come), but He will punish them for not coming. You must see that though God is Sovereign, man still has a responsibilty. He is responsible for His sin. The sinner who is saved, is saved purely on God's grace and nothing else, lest he should think he could boast. Its sort of like this: Suppose you and I were guilty of murder and while in prison, the warden comes to me and says "Silas, the governor has chosen to be merciful on you, you are free to go!" Who do I have to thank for my freedom? No one but the govenor, thats who. Who do you have to blame? No one but you, thats who. Its the samething with saved and unsaved people!

Romans 9-11 is about God's sovereignty in regards to the nation of Israel, it does not speak of individual soveriegnty. I have more to speak of these chapters, but it will take some space.

Assuming that man cannot come to God without God drawing them, if God wanted these "wicked men" men to come, then why didn't God draw them as well.

Right! Man's will before the fall were both able to choose up (good) and down (bad). Because their wills we not in bondage to sin, their choice were motivated by their love for God and their willingness to do good (that was their nature). Now you asked the question..."why did they chose to sin agaist God?" To be honest, I dont know. I wonder why myself. They had everything and anything they could want. But I cannot blame them, because I'm sure I would have done the samething myself. What we do know from scripture is that they did sin (only once) and it caused God to be so angry that He cast them out of the garden and pronoucned a death sentence on ALL men who were born through our fore-parants. This shows me that sin is way worst then we can even image. Thats why I say, if only we can get just a glimpse of it - just a peek of how ugly and how nasty and how disgusting and how putrafying, it is, we'd groan in agony and praise God for His wrath upon it. If sin were a physical entity, it would be worst than Satan himself.

I know why they sinned in their perfect state. Because they were in a sorta neutral state before God, without sin. But like I said, they had two choices. They could either have listened to God and choose God (The Tree of life) or listen to the Serpent's temptation and choose Sin (The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil).

Had they chose the Tree of Life (that is the Life of God, His Spirit), then they would have lived forever. (They were told they could eat from any tree in the Garden, but it is obvious that they didn't eat of the Tree of Life because of Genesis 3:22: "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:")

Therefore they were banned from the Garden, lest they live forever in a sinful state.

They had freewill in this neutral state. The choice Adam and Eve made was not based on the power of sin, for they did not know sin yet. But rather their choice was whether to follow God's way or their way. They were drawn by temptation, not by the power of sin. Sin is just the end result of temptation. but the temptation is not the sin itself.

Had they chosen the Tree of Life first, that temptation wouldn't have the effect on them, for then they would have the Spirit of God to protect them. The Spirit of God is the factor that will keep us from sin when we come into the Kingdom of God. (But we as Christians, we are still tempted here because we are still in corrupt bodies).

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." - I Corinthians 10:13

Temptations are the same for every man. The reason we fall to the temptation is because we chose to. But now that Tree of Life is available in Jesus Christ if we so chose it.

[Silas]

Dondi,

I dont think you read what I said. I affairmed that Adam and Eve were not bound by sin, but instead were able to choose both good and bad. Their choice to do good were rooted in their nature as being perfect. This was man's nature pior to the fall. After the fall, however, is where I said man's nature (his will, mind, and heart) became evil and enslaved to sin, which is his new nature. Here I'll use some scripture to support my argument:

"To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled " (Titus 1:15).

"Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart" (Eph. 4:17-18).

Note that our minds and consciences are defiled, our thinking is futile, our understanding is darkened, and we are full of ignorance. That is the state of the unsaved mind. Our thinking is sinful. We think things we should not think. Our feelings are also sinful. We feel things we ought not to feel. Here are some other scriptures to consider:

"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man." (Mat. 15:19-20)

"The human mind is more deceitful than anything else. It is incurably bad. Who can understand it?" (Jer. 17:9)

Note again, these are only a few scriptures to show the state of the natural man after the fall. He isnt pefect; he isnt even good. His heart is wicked, his mind is more deceitful than anything else, his conscience is darked, his will is in bondage to his sinful desiers, etc., etc. Because of one sin, EVERYONE after Adam and Eve was born wicked and depraved. That may not be your estimation of man, but it is what God declars of us. Now as for Romans 9. You say it is only speaking of Israel. Well, thats both true and false, let me explain this way. Who is Israel? According to the scriptures and even in Romans 9, Israel is God's people made up of redeemed sinners from both Jews and Gentiles and counted in the promised son, Isaac. Read Romans 1-9 again. Paul is speaking about His greif that he wishes that his people, Israel - that is "natural Israel" - would be saved.

Then he goes on to say, "its not like God's promise to save Israel failed." Why? Because not all those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel, nor are all the children Abraham’s true descendants; rather “through Isaac will your descendants be counted.” This means it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God; rather, the children of promise are counted as descendants. This is God's election: He chose His people before they were and it is not based on any good in them, not based on foreseen faith, or any merit in them what so ever (Romans 9:11) As for your last question:

"Assuming that man cannot come to God without God drawing them, if God wanted these "wicked men" men to come, then why didn't God draw them as well?"

First we must see that it is not based on assumptions that man must be drawn first, before he can come to God. Jesus himself said so in John 6:44. As for why God doesnt draw all, it is because He isnt obligated to. He's not obligated to love us (this is why we sing of His grace - it is amazing!), but He is obligated to be Just and punish sinners. Therefore, since this whole "life" thing is about Him, He saves some guilty law breakers to display His mercy and leaves equally guilty law breakers to their sin that in the end, He may show that He is still Just. He is revealing Himself in totality from Love to Wrath and all the attributes in between, e.g., mercy, grace, kindness, etc.