Free Will - its scope and purpose - Page 4

juantoo3 · 04-24-2007, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

what about worrying about people in hell.

does this mess up the self peace

Seems to me you answered your own question.

juantoo3 · 04-24-2007, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

how come other religions beleive in god? do they not seek peace in god? why isnt everyone converting from hinduism, buddhism or islam or african traditional religion or wiccanism if true peace comes with jesus?

What makes you think others do not find peace? Or, just as important, that other paths do not provide a moral compass by which to "do unto others?" Do you suggest G-d has not written His law on their hearts too?

shadowman · 04-24-2007, 04:28 AM

so I can chalk upo two sets of problems to god:

"worry about others in hell" (which can be broken down into different groups, my friends, my parents, people of other religions)

"worry about death every day till the day I die" (you never know how that crazy judgements gonna go down!)

juantoo3 · 04-24-2007, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

think about it for a second.

I have thought about it far more than a second. Perhaps you might do well to consider it awhile yourself?

juantoo3 · 04-24-2007, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

so I can chalk upo two sets of problems to god:

"worry about others in hell" (which can be broken down into different groups, my friends, my parents, people of other religions)

"worry about death every day till the day I die" (you never know how that crazy judgements gonna go down!)

As you wish.

Frankly, I don't see how you can get anything close to that from the Bible. Especially since worry is a sin...

shadowman · 04-24-2007, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juantoo3

What makes you think others do not find peace? Or, just as important, that other paths do not provide a moral compass by which to "do unto others?" Do you suggest G-d has not written His law on their hearts too?

yeah I do suggest that, some of the m even do crazy things like not believe in good and evil

so maybe he didnt mess with their hearts.

also, if they find peace and its not called jesus... what gives. are they going to hell?

we can die at any minute, what if they do sufficiently bad things.

Like is there a sliding scale where we can die without jesus and not go to hell, and there is a certain point where we would go to hell without jesus? or what?

Prober · 04-24-2007, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

Like is there a sliding scale where we can die without jesus and not go to hell, and there is a certain point where we would go to hell without jesus? or what?

Pass or Fail (imo).

shadowman · 04-24-2007, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juantoo3

As you wish.

Frankly, I don't see how you can get anything close to that from the Bible.

I got it from the warnings about hell in the gospels, and from the warnings about judgement in revelations

shadowman · 04-24-2007, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prober

Pass or Fail (imo).

how do you pass... does questioning make one fail? is it a set of mental choices at one point in time? does what one is thinking about at the moment of death matter?

shadowman · 04-24-2007, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juantoo3

As you wish.

Frankly, I don't see how you can get anything close to that from the Bible. Especially since worry is a sin...

how are we to not worry about hell? for others I mean.

juantoo3 · 04-24-2007, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

I got it from the warnings about hell in the gospels, and from the warnings about judgement in revelations

That is well and good...did you also get the part about not judging others lest ye be judged?

How do you know the mind of G-d, as to who He will save, and who He won't? Who goes to heaven...the unrepentant thief who claims to be Christian...or the Samaritan who tends the wounds of an injured stranger and puts him up until he is well again? The evidence of the Holy Spirit manifests in many more than just Christians. I believe it is well to let G-d do the judging of who He will save, and who He won't. I make myself available to G-d for His purposes, if that means guiding someone, so be it. But that person must desire guidance, otherwise it is wasted effort on my part. I plant seeds...but I cannot make them grow. Sometimes G-d might desire for me to stick around and do a little weeding and pruning, but all of the growing is up to G-d and that particular seed.

Prober · 04-24-2007, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowman

does what one is thinking about at the moment of death matter?

Yeah, it matters!

It shows (imo) the condition of the "heart" over a lifetime.

Everyone is reachable.

Snoopy · 04-24-2007, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juantoo3

And go fishin' with me...

{*It'll give Seattlegal something to do}

17th Angel · 04-24-2007, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Especially since worry is a sin...

What freaking isn't?

If there were an hell.... Your god would be mean and spiteful, not at all loving... No one of a loving and merciful nature could punish and torture people for eternity and specially how would that make you feel towards this god... He is there punishing your loved ones and friends and whatnot.... Yet everything is cool? ONE: It isn't there fault... They are apprently not "perfect"... Well you made them.... TWO: Free will is what you offer... Someone takes it, then accept it.. You gave the choice not to buy into your book.... And they didn't, live with it. You'd stand by and allow someone to kick 3 tons of **** out of your mother? And you'd except that and say she had it coming? Bull. You'd anti up, bottom line. Nothing comes before blood...

seattlegal · 04-24-2007, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberpi

I would say one of the differences with Buddhism is that the 'Golden' rule is simply missing. The negative of it is there... an inhibitor or apathetic version. Essentially: Do NOT do unto others as you would have them NOT do unto you. Or: Do NOT Hate others as you would NOT have them Hate you. Or: Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful. (UdanaVarga 5:18)

I would say that patience could be seen as obeying the inhibitor version. But it takes an active 'free will' to set up the mirror like comparison and to overcome or prevent the more instinctive cues. An act of will is taking place in forgiveness, mercy, patience, etc... Also, it likewise takes free will to pro-actively take the 'Golden' rule in its positive form. To DO for others. Is there a meditation that will teach that? I don't think so... unless a person meditates for someone else. I think the 'Golden Rule' is entirely missing in Buddhism. Maybe someone would disagree and teach me otherwise?

Dhammapada 1:1-5

1. All that we are is the result of what we have thought: it is founded on our thoughts, it is made up of our thoughts. If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought, pain follows him, as the wheel follows the foot of the ox that draws the carriage.

2. All that we are is the result of what we have thought: it is founded on our thoughts, it is made up of our thoughts. If a man speaks or acts with a pure thought, happiness follows him, like a shadow that never leaves him.

3. 'He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'--in those who harbour such thoughts hatred will never cease.

4. 'He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'--in those who do not harbour such thoughts hatred will cease.

5. For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.