Free Thought

[aquaris]

All the excrepts are Not Mine...

But I have copied them selectively. As they seems thought provoking enough

and I would request your comments on them.

Children are curious about every thing and they ask questions all the time, which at times become irksome for the elders to answer. As they grow up, they get brain washed as to which questions are appropriate to ask and what others are inappropriate. This instinct is suppressed in the Muslim world at a fairly early stage in life because questioning is discouraged by the parents and the elders. It is curiously considered a sign of disrespect. According to a common adage among the Muslims, questions should not be asked in matters of religion – particularly about Islam; religion should be practiced uncritically according to the usual rituals. For the troubleshooters, there is the law of ‘blasphemy’.

Earth is stationary and is the center of the universe. The Sun and other planets revolve around Earth. This was based on Ptolemy’s astronomy, which somehow became an article of Christian faith. One could have disagreed with Ptolemy’s formulation with impunity if it didn’t have the Christian underpinnings. When it became an article of religious faith, denying it became a blasphemy punishable by death. For example, Giordano Bruno was burnt alive on the stake for his expressed belief in heliocentricity.

Ptolemy’s formulation held sway for centuries until it became obvious through observations that his astronomy had become unnecessarily too cumbersome and alternate formulation could explain matters much simply. The time was opportune for the heliocentric theory to replace the geocentric concept. But the faith in gocentricity had become ingrained and dogmatic. The freethinking scientists, Galileo and others, had to take a firm position against the Church and suffer for it before the geocentric concept was replaced by the heliocentric theory.

When Islam expanded into foreign lands outside Arabia, the Muslims came in contact with Egyptians, Syrians, and Greeks living in these lands. Greek philosophy and rational sciences existed in these lands and the early Muslims were naturally influenced by them. Their blind faith in the divine revelation was thus confronted by rational thought and many people started questioning the viability of the dogma in the divine scriptures. Such an experience was quite new to the Muslims who were intellectually challenged to reconcile some of the improbable scriptural text with reason. When suitable bridge could not be built and mutual reconciliation seemed impossible, recourse was made to reinterpretation of the scriptural text for resolving the (apparent) conflict.

The period in which rationalism was tangled with orthodox thought lasted for about four to five hundred years. In spite of its stresses and strains, this was a very productive period of intellectualism in the Muslim world. Some of the top-notch philosophers who belonged to this period were al-Kindi, al-Farabi, al-Razi, ibn Sina, and ibn Rushd among many others. Likewise, some of the contemporary excellent theologians such as al-Ghazali, and eminent jurists like the four Imams, the founders of the four schools of jurisprudence, namely Abu Hanifa, Shafi’i, Malik, and Hanbal lived in this glorious period of Islamic ascendancy. Two of the excellent philosophical works, which are still extant and widely read and used as reference source material are al-Ghazali’s Incoherence of the Philosophers, and ibn Rushd’s Incoherence of the Incoherence of the Philosophers. Al-Ghazali’s kalam argument has recently been used by the Christian theists for the existence of God in their debates with the Humanist atheists. Al-Razi’s al-Hawi and ibn Sina’s al-Qanun-fi-al-Tibb (popularly known as Canon in the west) were encyclopedic works on medicine which were used as text books in the European universities almost into the seventeenth century.

Then the curtain fell and intellectual darkness started creeping into the Muslim world until in due time it was completely engulfed by it.

The Muslim world was overtaken by mysticism and metaphysics. All the philosophers subsequent to ibn Rushd, in the Muslim world, were metaphysicians. The Muslim world lost touch with the physical reality and drowned itself in the ‘otherworldliness.’ The Muslims lived their lives to lose materialism (no material comforts) and to make a smooth passage to the ‘other world’ through recitation (zikr), meditation, ritual prayer, and other associated practices. Eschatology became more important than rational and physical sciences. This brought us to the crossroads where we find ourselves standing now and wondering, “What happened?”

The Old Testament narrates the story of the creation of the world by God in six days and is a short history book of the Jewish prophets. After reading it, a thought comes to mind as if the world began with the Jews; nobody else of any import appears to have existed in the world other than the Jews and the animals, which were rescued by Noah in his ark during the Great Flood.

Later, Jesus Christ (a Jew) was elevated to the level of the Ultimate Redeemer of mankind who atoned for their sins by dying at the Cross. So, according to Christians, Christianity supplanted Judaism as the righteous and divinely revealed religion. Every thing that is good and needed for the redemption of mankind is in the Bible, which is the ‘word of God’. The Jews by and large disagree with the Christian comprehension and postulation.

According to Islamic faith, both Christian and Jewish books are corrupted by alterations and interpolations and are thus not the genuine divine scriptures in their present form. The original texts are lost and are irretrievable. There was thus a need for reviving the true word of God and the Quran does that precisely. Many orthodox Muslims like to believe that all of the human knowledge (that exists, and then some more) is already there in the Quran.

The Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) focus only on the people who follow these religions while the remaining humanity is glaringly diminished if not completely ignored. What about Buddha, Krishna, and Confucius? There is no mention of them and their teachings in any of the Abrahamic holy books. Similarly, what about the great ancient Babylonian, Hindu, Chinese, and Egyptian civilizations? Egyptian civilization is marginally mentioned in the anecdotes involving Moses and the Pharaoh but nothing is mentioned how great these civilizations were. If these (the Abrahamic) religions are truly divine and universal, why would God ignore His own people, the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, Hindus, Chinese and others? The world was not created for the Abrahamic people only.

There is an ongoing intense struggle between the rationalists and the conservatives in the Muslim world. The conservatives look backward to the glories of Islam and insist on going back to the original roots of Islam while the rationalists are tugging to move forward into the modern world. There is a catalytic realization in several Muslim countries that they should have nuclear deterrent like several non-Muslim countries. They also realize that the non-Muslim world would not help them in this venture; they have to develop such a deterrent by their own efforts and resources. For this, they need to have their own scientists equipped with the latest know-how in nuclear science and technology. They will perforce have to relax (or release) the stranglehold on the rationalists. The scientists need to be freed from the bonds and shackles of the mullahs and orthodoxy. The mullahs need to be controlled and awakened to the existing realities. A process of re-education is needed not only for the scientists but for the orthodox mullahs also. The taboo subjects (philosophy and rational sciences) need to be taught and learnt.

Philosophy, call it the western philosophy, if you will, by itself doesn’t take you to the stage at which you can craft scientific theories and validate them empirically. It does however teach you how to think rationally, analytically, and creatively, which is prerequisite for doing science

These are a few selective quotes from a very Good article on Present

state . Hope I have Not crossed the Limits...

and would Like to have opinion of this forum on it.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste,

welcome to the forum...

perhaps... it would be easier to elicit comment by choosing one quote for discussion. as it stands... this thread, if responded to, will be all over the place and will probably ignore some good talking points.

[aquaris]

Yes You are right...

the post will require a very lengthy debate.

hoping some one will sumarize.

thanks. for taking an interest.

[I, Brian]

Hi aquaris - do you not want to summarise? After all, you have seen fit to make what is effectively a short essay on a variety of interesting subjects - but it is not very friendly to read. I try to read it and am left feeling that it is a little disjointed - perhaps if you could use your own voice to create your subject matter it would be easier to understand what is *specifcally* being discussed?

[aquaris]

Yes.....

I am sorry ..... In my egerness....for posting a Nice start First Post....

I inadvertly Posted .... to many disjoint....Topics simultenously In a single

Post....... and a Lengthy cut paste made it bothersome for a concentrated READ.

any way I wanted to get a feel where at this Moment in Time we as a Human

stand.. with so many conflicting.. overlaping...and cross-purpose currents

sweeping Us.

So Basically Two questions which Bother me Most.

1- In all Abrahimic faiths Like (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam)... every thing is

concentrated to Just One area... Broadly... the Middle east..

and In all these religions ...The God is supposed to be the God of All..

So where is the rest of the World. ?


2- Muslim world seems to be in an Internel conflict between rationalism and

conservatism. what any one thinks could be the outcome of It.?


Sorry if it again seems two different un-related questions...!!

[aquaris]

The second question can be postponed for now....As its an ongoing continues

process...and the outcome. will definately be on too many parameters...

so lets first concetrate on the first question..

that is Where is the REST of the world for ONE GOD on Abrahim religions.?

[kemal eldin alarabi]

The Quran, the holy book of Islam, stated clearly that the “Torah” and the “Injeel” were sent down from “Allah” as guidance to “mankind” (Q3: 2-4).
The Quran, further, declares that some (Scribes and Editors) changed the Text (Q5: 41). After that, the Quran was sent down as a new guidance:
“ O people of the book, our messenger has come to you to reveal much of what you used to hide (Of text material) from the Scripture …there has come from Allah a (new) light and a clear book” (Q5: 15)
Thus in this view, a new book, The Quran, is sent down to correct and to make clear what was taken out and or added unto the “ Original Scriptures “ by the hand of scribes and editors.

Scholars among the “ People of the Book “ disagreed. They responded to accusations with accusations and disputed the wholly Holiness of the Quran Text. They also accuse Muslim scholars and preachers that they frequently teach hatred and promote intolerance towards their fundamental beliefs; and this, they say, may lead, if not treated carefully, to serious conflicts, hatred, unhappiness, and abuse. Muslim scholars, therefore, are invited, in light of this view, to respect the beliefs of those who hold ideals that are globally righteous and (Godly). Further, instead of getting themselves and their followers busy in pointing out to text errors of other religions, Muslims should get busy to solve difficult questions arising from interpreting the Quran, correctly or incorrectly.

Independent researchers of religions have affirmed that there is no text ever written directly by God. They actually believe that available texts produced, including the Quran Text, represent interpretations of whatever authority happened to dominate at the time.

A very large number of Muslims today do not know that shortly after the death of the prophet Mohammed, there were quite a number of versions of the Quran Text. The ruling Muslim authorities at the time gave instructions in order to standardize the Text. There were numerous texts in existence with variant readings. So, the authorities ordered to correct wherever necessary and to burn or destroy all others (?).
Scholars argue: if those texts were not contradictory why ordered to be destroyed?

[aquaris]

thanks for your reply....

you part some parts of the second question....

But let me repeat the questioin...!!!


It is said.... God has sent 1 lac 86 thousands Meesenger/prophets/teachers...

But all we find are within the arabian Penunsuala...or at Most...in some parts of

Africa...with reference to Egypt....... that is all the prophets/messengers mentioned

are located within this area.....a LImited One by all definations....

So where are the Other Ones for Other AREAS of the World.... Like for example

China or even India....or Europes any place in Europe......There is No mention of

any such Messenger/prophet for these areas....in any of the Revealed Books...

with in all the three major Monothiest Religions....

....Or explicity....Why Isn't any Mentioned....for Other areas...in all these Books.

Isn't God is the God Of All....??

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, aquaris! Welcome to CR!

Thank you for your post.

Originally Posted by aquaris

So where are the Other Ones for Other AREAS of the World.... Like for example

China or even India....or Europes any place in Europe......There is No mention of

any such Messenger/prophet for these areas....in any of the Revealed Books...

with in all the three major Monothiest Religions....

....Or explicity....Why Isn't any Mentioned....for Other areas...in all these Books.

Isn't God is the God Of All....??

I am thinking your question concerns geography and culture. Why would a monotheistic prophet exist in or speak to a culture that was polytheistic or animistic?

Other cultures have prophets too. But these prophets would speak to their people in terms they would understand. A Navajo prophet would not be understood by or appreciated by, oh, a Hindu culture, for example. Likewise, a Hindu prophet would not be understood by or appreciated by a Polynesian culture.

Of course, it could be asked why Abrahamic faiths have no "outside" prophets for the same reason, if God is over the whole world? The Old Testament tells of a few outside prophets, but they were always cast as bad guys to be defeated, or at best "false" prophets.

God, in whatever way one prefers to envision "Him," for whatever reason or purpose known only to Him, chose to separate the peoples of the world through their tribes and clans. "He" is still One, the peoples are many.

I don't know if this answers your question, but if I understand correctly, your concern is why a prophet of an Abrahamic faith has not manifested in other cultures. Prophets have manifested globally, the Abrahamic faiths are localized by geography. Prophecy is universal, monotheism is not.

[aquaris]

thank you juantoo3 ......for your reply...

I understand...and its logical....that God would have sent....messengers and

prophets to each nation and every corner of the world...

....what perplexes me....... In all the books.....there is no mention of any

other messenger.......of any other place then that of in the immediate

closeness...

there are many speculations.......Like Budda could be a messenger...

or ....maybe some Others too...But these are mere speculations...nothing

concrete...

Now for a God to be the God of all..


you said..

am thinking your question concerns geography and culture. Why would a monotheistic prophet exist in or speak to a culture that was polytheistic or animistic?

...But my question is Why is it Not mentioned....anywhere and in any

revealed Book...anywhere...

[green lantern]

Free Thought flows from unconscious and surfaces to consciousness of all humans. The differences come from the fact that each of us receive only part or pieces of the unified thought. In another life we will all be connected to that unified thought. Until then, we must be empowered passionately to keep seeking truth through the wisdom, knowledge, and personal experiences to decipher and interprete the absolute from the relativeness. Every situation is different yet the fundamental concepts should be the same.

I believe the answers to all things are already here in existence, but because of our mortality, sin, imperfection from whichever spiritual system one believes in, we only obtain parts of the whole until we can either access the absolute, or we live our next life.

Every thing we learn we can claim truth upon observation and speculation or accept the reliability and validity of historical conclusions. We have a tendancy to obscure facts with our personal interpretations based on thoughts, feelings, and experiences into calling it truth; however, we must be aware of the halo effect. Our experiences, indeed, may be revelation to us, but it is for a purpose and an example. Be wary and ground self. All is interconnected.

How do we resolve differences? Until we know the nature of conflicting free thought, we must realize that our thoughts are created from a perspective---an angle perse. A prism is a prism, although it has different angular lens to split the white light into colorful spectrum. We have to step outside our limited thinking of one-sidedness to see things as they are.

Things are composed of other things. Often times, we see only the visible summation of the invisible parts. Other things are dicotymous---two sides of the same coin. Take good and evil, for example. The world will continually fight throughout history over what is good and what is evil. We think one is superior over the other. One is necessary, and the other is irrelevant. The whole picture demonstrates clearly that good and evil, opposite by its defined parameters, are grouped in the same family of morality.

With this understanding, we must now view not from two-way thinking but in terms of classification. This subject will be addressed later.