Free Choice or Chioce by Evolution of Consciousness?

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Hi,

Yes, from this thread I am mostly getting just an addled brain. Just one example: top-downers and bottom-uppers!!!??? I'm not sure I'd like to be described as either of them!

s.

Well Snoopy, you might be one, or the other or sometimes both

These are just examples of how people tend to perceive things. There are those who see or rather must see the whole or big picture and then break it down into its parts. These usually see that the Whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
Then still others tend to build up to a conclusion or their vision of the Whole by carefully understanding the minute parts, organizing the data, categorizing concepts.

There is no good or bad, or better than less than just a different way of processing. When we communicate without being aware of the different processes conflict arises which serves only to waste time, and cause hard feelings. Thereby the reference in my little poem.

[cyberpi]

I view my free choice or free-will this way:

If I were bound up, gagged, starved, tortured, sleep deprived, threatened impending doom, or offered massive bribes... I still see that I have free choice. My choices may become extremely limited by the actions of others, the world, or my own prior choices, but I see what little is left as a free choice. Why is it free? It was gifted to me... I have no knowledge of paying for any of this life. I don't even know how to pay except possibly to share it with others. But I know who gave me choices.

When I throw a switch, like an electrical switch, I had a choice not to throw the switch. The size and magnitude of what I switched does NOT diminish or add to that ability to throw the switch. So I do NOT equate power and free choice. I do NOT equate the magnitude and the choice.

If there is a neuron in my brain that was not under my power, and it ultimately sent the signal to throw the switch, then I do not even consider that a choice. So I also do NOT equate external factors with choice.

Does choice here have consequences? Absolutely, but I do not consider that to remove from the choice. If it does then I am a slave to it. If I am just adapting to fit an environment then the environment is controlling me. Does the environment control me? Absolutely. I don't reject that, but as I said I do NOT consider that to be the choice. I further consider that things like gifts, love, forgiveness, patience, etc... require having a choice.

Does an adult having greater knowledge, wisdom, or information have greater choices? Sure, but scrolling back to what I first said, I do not equate the range of options with the free-choice. The brain and body is limited... there is a limited amount of information that it can see and deal with in a given period of time.

So that is what I've come to see and the words that I attach to them. I am certainly not requiring that anyone adopt them, but I do seem to see some things differently.

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

I view my free choice or free-will this way:

If I were bound up, gagged, starved, tortured, sleep deprived, threatened impending doom, or offered massive bribes... I still see that I have free choice. My choices may become extremely limited by the actions of others, the world, or my own prior choices, but I see what little is left as a free choice. Why is it free? It was gifted to me... I have no knowledge of paying for any of this life. I don't even know how to pay except possibly to share it with others. But I know who gave me choices.

(snip)

OK cyberpi,

If you insist you have 'free choice' and not just 'choice' who am I to take it from your reality. Here is what my dictionary says:

free (fr)
adj. fre·er, fre·est 1. Not imprisoned or enslaved; being at liberty.

To that I would ask:
If you are not imprisoned in your body and mind then can you break free and see the world as it really is?

If you have free choice, Can you tell your thoughts to stop right now? Can you even stop them for 1 solid minute without a single thought at your 'free' will?

You say you see your choice as limited (restricted/not free ) by others or your prior choices but you insist it is free because it was gifted to you. Are you making a funny?

I ask this because you say you have no knowledge of paying for this life as if choice is free yet you pay for it everyday. Each choice in life you make has consequences. That is your payment for choice. If choice was free, it would have no consequences for payment. In truth, surrender leads to freedom, choice has led you to bondage. Surrender that which you thought you had but didn't and you will be free. But these words I speak now are deep and as of out of a mouth of a fool. Yet you will understand them and do even now though you insist you do not.

Yet in conclusion I will leave you to your game and the melodrama of it all and concede for your sake that you have what you say. Free Choice and Free Will.

Love in Christ,
JM

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Paladin

These are just examples of how people tend to perceive things. There are those who see or rather must see the whole or big picture and then break it down into its parts. These usually see that the Whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
Then still others tend to build up to a conclusion or their vision of the Whole by carefully understanding the minute parts, organizing the data, categorizing concepts.

Hi Paladin,

Thanks for that. I found this Science & Theology News - Bottom-up Thinking in Science and Religion
which includes "I call this latter approach to reality, which seeks to move upwards from experience to understanding, bottom-up thinking."
Would it therefore be reasonable to say that bottom-up thinking is analogous to empiricism (perception favoured over thinking) and top-down thinking analogous to rationalism (thinking favoured over perception). Just a thought (not a perception).

s.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Hi Paladin,

Thanks for that. I found this Science & Theology News - Bottom-up Thinking in Science and Religion
which includes "I call this latter approach to reality, which seeks to move upwards from experience to understanding, bottom-up thinking."
Would it therefore be reasonable to say that bottom-up thinking is analogous to empiricism (perception favoured over thinking) and top-down thinking analogous to rationalism (thinking favoured over perception). Just a thought (not a perception).

s.

You Know Snoopy, I'm not really sure about that. My gut feeling is that it might be the other way around. I tend to be a whole picture type of person, and my Myers-Briggs type suggests I lean more toward perceiving than thinking though as for that when I tested out it was almost 50/50. Incidentally the MBTI shows I'm an INFP

Peace

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by JosephM

free (fr)
adj. fre·er, fre·est 1. Not imprisoned or enslaved; being at liberty.

That is the definition I was using. That portion of molecules or neurons not imprisoned or enslaved is free and it is my choice to move them around as I wish. It was given to me and not taken away. That is free-will. When I drive a car I do not envision that I am trapped on the ground because of the car. The car enables me, and I did not design it.

Originally Posted by JosephM

To that I would ask:
If you are not imprisoned in your body and mind then can you break free and see the world as it really is?

I think God knows whatever I see, and whatever you see.

Originally Posted by JosephM

If you have free choice, Can you tell your thoughts to stop right now? Can you even stop them for 1 solid minute without a single thought at your 'free' will?

Yes... you can too and I highly recommend it. A very long time ago an engineer gave me a GSR biofeedback that he built for a C-64 and he wanted me to look at writing some software for it. So I tried it, and got into it, and realized that meditation is all about willfully thinking about nothing so that you can willfully focus entirely on something. I highly recommend biofeedback or meditation. Of course there is brain activity that is out of my control... except by more drastic measures. But I can stop using that which is the free-will.

Originally Posted by JosephM

You say you see your choice as limited (restricted/not free ) by others or your prior choices but you insist it is free because it was gifted to you. Are you making a funny?

I ask this because you say you have no knowledge of paying for this life as if choice is free yet you pay for it everyday. Each choice in life you make has consequences. That is your payment for choice. If choice was free, it would have no consequences for payment. In truth, surrender leads to freedom, choice has led you to bondage. Surrender that which you thought you had but didn't and you will be free. But these words I speak now are deep and as of out of a mouth of a fool. Yet you will understand them and do even now though you insist you do not.

Yet in conclusion I will leave you to your game and the melodrama of it all and concede for your sake that you have what you say. Free Choice and Free Will.

Love in Christ,
JM

I see that you and I do have a difference over what patience or sacrifice means, as well as choice.

If I were to ask you what your favorite drink is and then I give you a glass that is half full of it and half full of clean air, what will you think?

1. Is the glass half full?
2. Is the glass half empty?
3. Am I just trying to win something like a debate?
4. Am I trying to control you?
5. Am I trying to be nice so that I can go to heaven?
6. Am I trying to enslave you or place you in debt?
7. Am I stingy for only giving half?
8. Have I been indoctrinated into societal or religious beliefs to give?
9. Have I got a random gene that loves controversy?
10. Am I a fool to give and not recieve?
11. Do I expect a repayment?
12. Do you think that someone in Ethiopia is not recieving it instead?
13. Do I give only because someone else gave me something?
14. Am I giving nothing because I did not make the glass or the drink?
15. Did I have a free-choice whether to give anything?
16. Would you choose to accept the gift as a gift?

I'd like to run an experiment: What is your favorite drink, or something in the $100 range that you would like to have? Will you place the Faith in me to give you a gift? Then send me your address in a PM and I'll send it to you. My goal is to gain experience with something or for you to gain experience. Call it evolution if you like. I wish to learn something about choice and Faith. My part is the easy part... isn't it. Why is that? It is your choice! Are you going to place Faith in me to give you something that you like? The choice is yours. I have no choice until you give me one.

[JosephM]

Hello Cyberpi,

I apologize for my last post. Obviously it brought me something I do not want to see.

Love in Christ,
JM

[cyberpi]

JM:
Absolutely nothing to apologize over whatsoever. I find your viewpoint interesting and I suggested something rather uncommon. The thing I was wanting to experiment with is not the trust, but the choice. Since I'm a stranger that doesn't work, but I find that most everyone is a stranger to the thoughts of others... often even those who are closest.

Another thing I think is worth doing is to just give choices to young children (and family). A game I've played a couple of times is to get in a car to go for a trip and let the children make the decisions of where to go and where to turn. They become the explorers. It gives them great excitement and it can be fun to see where they go with it. If I'm the one driving I am in control but giving them the choices so that they are in control. To the child the choices are also free... they don't think about the opportunity cost. I see it as different than just playing with the kids or giving them things... I think of it as giving them greater power of decision in a bounded but free fashion.

I imagine people here give each other gifts at holidays and there are many decisions (choices) through employment and economic transactions. I recognize though that in most of my day to day activities and situations I have been in that I have formerly resorted to society fed beliefs of leadership, politics, employment, parenting, or other roles. I have always been conscious of who was making the choices or decisions, but I had not seen it as a gift between people. So if I were right that I am the free-will, I still recognize that it is possible to live in a way without giving each other choices... or to just not consider it that way.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Paladin

You Know Snoopy, I'm not really sure about that. My gut feeling is that it might be the other way around. I tend to be a whole picture type of person, and my Myers-Briggs type suggests I lean more toward perceiving than thinking though as for that when I tested out it was almost 50/50. Incidentally the MBTI shows I'm an INFP

Peace

Hi,
When you say not sure about that, do you mean empiricism & rationalism? If so, the entry on empiricism in Wiki seems to broadly suggest this:

"In philosophy generally, empiricism is a theory of knowledge emphasizing the role of experience.
As a historical matter, philosophical empiricism is commonly contrasted with the philosophical school of thought known as "rationalism" which, in very broad terms, asserts that much knowledge is attributable to reason independently of the senses."

Whatever.

On your related note (?) of MB Types; I dug mine out and found we're in the same quadrant: I'm an INTP - for what it's worth! - Thinking AND Perceiving! There's value for money. It was done a while ago so I don't know how stable it's supposed to be over time. (Or what validity it has!). Oh grief, there I go analysing...

s.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Hi,
When you say not sure about that, do you mean empiricism & rationalism? If so, the entry on empiricism in Wiki seems to broadly suggest this:

"In philosophy generally, empiricism is a theory of knowledge emphasizing the role of experience.
As a historical matter, philosophical empiricism is commonly contrasted with the philosophical school of thought known as "rationalism" which, in very broad terms, asserts that much knowledge is attributable to reason independently of the senses."

Whatever.

On your related note (?) of MB Types; I dug mine out and found we're in the same quadrant: I'm an INTP - for what it's worth! - Thinking AND Perceiving! There's value for money. It was done a while ago so I don't know how stable it's supposed to be over time. (Or what validity it has!). Oh grief, there I go analysing...

s.

Hmmm... And how does this make you feel?



I think your spirit of inquiry will probably lead you to the answer, but as for me it seems an a priori kind of knowledge would be prevalent in a "Top-downer" with the a posteriori being the "Bottom-upper" Those in the forum, more knowledgeable than I might be able to tell us for sure. Where is Abagado Del diablo when you need him!

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Hmmm... And how does this make you feel?

Hi,

Counselling now, eh?!!

I would hope that I engage in both "types" of mind activity, as appropriate...

s.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

To prove the free-will: Something has to come out of a person that did NOT go in. If every particle could be tracked then it would be seen that something is not obeying the 'cause and effect'... but that can not be seen. To measure anything requires using energy, which either destroys or alters. Besides there are far too many particles to track. But it is a requirement of free will that information comes out of a person that did not go in.

Originally Posted by Paladin

These are just examples of how people tend to perceive things. There are those who see or rather must see the whole or big picture and then break it down into its parts. These usually see that the Whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Is this not where the evolution of consciousness part comes in? It's free-will that is greater than the sum of the parts. Free-choice is often concerned with just the parts.

{Oh, btw, I'm an INTJ who recognizes that there are some things that are just beyond our current perception.}

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Incidentally the MBTI shows I'm an INFP

Originally Posted by seattlegal

{Oh, btw, I'm an INTJ }

Hi,

Maybe us intuitive introverts could form our own club. It would make great material for a Woody Allen film. But then Paladin's too absorbed to be sociable, seattlegal's too stubborn to agree where to meet and I don't like small talk or parties. Oh and we're not even on the same continent. Stupid idea all round really.

s. (INTP and proud).

[cyberpi]

This MBTI: 4 bits? 4 bits that can't even encode a single letter of the alphabet is suppose to say something about a person's personality? I looked it up and I am an EISNTFJP... unable to answer questions that do not have an answer... primarily since they are situation dependent and subject to what a person chooses. So here is an easy expansion to 12 bits:

Do you sometimes prefer to be more Extroverted than Introverted?
Do you sometimes prefer to be more Introverted than Extroverted?
Do you sometimes prefer to Sense rather than rely on Intuition?
Do you sometimes prefer to use Intuition rather than Sensory?
Do you sometimes prefer to Think rather than Feel?
Do you sometimes prefer to Feel rather than Think?
Do you sometimes prefer to Judge rather than Perceive?
Do you sometimes prefer to Perceive rather than Judge?

So that is: Y, N, and don't know for 8 questions... which can be encoded in 12 bits. At least thats enough to encode a single letter of the alphabet.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Hi,

Maybe us intuitive introverts could form our own club. It would make great material for a Woody Allen film. But then Paladin's too absorbed to be sociable, seattlegal's too stubborn to agree where to meet and I don't like small talk or parties. Oh and we're not even on the same continent. Stupid idea all round really.

s. (INTP and proud).

Hey! um... well, yeah okay