Fireman suspended for Gay Parade refusal

[wil]

Originally Posted by paul

of course not, but i could see why they would object to having to stay in a gay bar all day handing out leaflets, couldn't you?

countering hyperbole with hyperbole, I deserved that.

So we have a line, two both ends of the spectrum as a matter of fact.

No, I wouldn't send fireman to the bar to hand out the safety flyers, not the volume or coverage that a parade would have.

But we do agree, they are obligated to do their job, fight fires, and promote fire safety.

So the question is, we have a parade sponsored by what is questionable to some of the department, however the higher ups have thought the event will bring enough of a crowd to make it worthy of marketing their safety material. Now all those in the crowd won't be gay, many will be there for the spectacle, some will be family members...all deserve to get the flyers and reduce fires, hence it is thier job...and this may be a crowd that is not reached in their other marketing exploits.

It isn't that I don't see the issue, or wonder if their isn't an equitable way to allow some not to attend and honor thier concerns. But I still see this as their job and understand managements side.

[InLove]

hire more gay firefighters?

[wil]

[quote=InLove]hire more gay firefighters?[/quoteNice try but we've already determined they'll fight the gay fires.

[InLove]

[quote]

Originally Posted by InLove

hire more gay firefighters?

Yeah, I suppose that really is a separate issue....

An event of this scale, if it is operating within the law, is entitled to the same public service announcements as any other that is being conducted within the same parameters of the law, even if the service involved is handing out pamphlets rather than putting out the fires that might possibly result from ignorance of fire safety hazards. 'Course, that's the way it supposedly is on this side of the Atlantic....

Peace&Love

[paul]

my point about the gay bar, never mind if it had the amount of people who attend a gay parade or much more, should a fireman be forced to have to stay in a gay bar all day handing out flyers?

some people may not like what happens in a gay bar, may not like what happens at a gay parade and what it stands for.
mostly people would answer if you don't like what goes on don't attend.

but these firemen are not given this option.

if people don't have the right not to attend such an event, then it is hypocriscy the event has a right to occur.

[wil]

Originally Posted by paul

my point about the gay bar, never mind if it had the amount of people who attend a gay parade or much more, should a fireman be forced to have to stay in a gay bar all day handing out flyers?

some people may not like what happens in a gay bar, may not like what happens at a gay parade and what it stands for.
mostly people would answer if you don't like what goes on don't attend.

but these firemen are not given this option.

if people don't have the right not to attend such an event, then it is hypocriscy the event has a right to occur.

Of course they have a right not to attend...and in some cases that would mean the employer would have the right to sack them. That I think is the nature of the question. This isn't their free time, this is on the job, getting paid for it, being asked by the boss to do something....we all have a choice, and if we make one the boss doesn't approve of...there is always another job, it is called free will.

I really love the discussion surrounding what little we know of the truth or the whole story....sort of like discussing the bible, or any war, or any other event... we get wholly committed to a position...when our position is oh so tenuous....

tis never the destination, always the journey....

[paul]

it'll be interesting to see what happens.

is homophobia a medical condition?

i don't think i could attend such an event, i think i would be physically ill.

maybe they could claim homophobia, and be releived of such duties.

there can only be a number of outcomes.

i don't see why they just don't let them do other duties, for those going to the parade would probably have an easier day.

[flowperson]

Originally Posted by paul

it'll be interesting to see what happens.

is homophobia a medical condition?

i don't think i could attend such an event, i think i would be physically ill.

maybe they could claim homophobia, and be releived of such duties.

there can only be a number of outcomes.

i don't see why they just don't let them do other duties, for those going to the parade would probably have an easier day.

Maybe the Archbishop of Canterbury and his staff should be recruited to hand out the flyers at the gay parade and let the firefighters off the hook ?

flow....

[paul]

here's further and updated news on the topic:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...st/5216244.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...st/5291310.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...st/5302376.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...5301334.stm?ls

http://www.strathclydefire.org/news/...asp?NewsID=133

http://www.scmo.org/_titles/view.asp?id=477

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Plain and simple , a public servant doesnt choose who is served by his or her organization. Just because it happens to be a marginalized sector doesn't make it noble or right regardless of the ancient text one might use to pull stories from.

I have assumed you are referring to my post (#2) ... if so, then the "ancient text" supports your point of view. As a part of our job we should do whatever is required.

Of course, there are limits ... Abu Ghraib is an extreme example, where "no" was the appropriate response.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by kenod

I have assumed you are referring to my post (#2) ... if so, then the "ancient text" supports your point of view. As a part of our job we should do whatever is required.

Of course, there are limits ... Abu Ghraib is an extreme example, where "no" was the appropriate response.

I quite agree Kenod, and further that we never need beg forgiveness for fullfilling our duty. Speaking of which, the American soldier is duty bound to say no to an unlawful order. Treating a prisoner the way they were treated at Abu Ghirab is a good example. I served as both Military Police and Infantryman during my ten year tour of duty and am fairly familar with the Uniform code of Military Justice, or the UCMJ.

[paul]

i think it depends how strongly the fireman feels about this.

as already said they may be sacked for refusing, maybe they would even offer to resign.

that would be their choice and one they are entitled to.

somethings to some people may be more important than their job, or certain orders.

i beleive it's right to respect your superiors, but sometimes things that matter more to you, may conflict with them, and in some cases you may feel you have to stand up and say i can't do that.

iPaladin,
some peoples feelings on this are far more than what an ancient text says.
some people are deeply sickened by this as much as they are at peodophilier, beastiality, and sex between family members.

these are true natural feelings, you can't turn these on and off.

you may say people can't compare homosexuality to peodophilier and beastiality, but the unnaturalness of the act is just as sickening to some, you can't just not feel this way because certain people slander you for it, or what certain laws, soceity, or anyone says.

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by paul

iPaladin,
some peoples feelings on this are far more than what an ancient text says.
some people are deeply sickened by this as much as they are at peodophilier, beastiality, and sex between family members.

these are true natural feelings, you can't turn these on and off.

you may say people can't compare homosexuality to peodophilier and beastiality, but the unnaturalness of the act is just as sickening to some, you can't just not feel this way because certain people slander you for it, or what certain laws, soceity, or anyone says.

Yes, I hate all people called Mark. They sicken me with their unnatural name and associated behaviour. Marks are so disgusting that, in their wickedness, I would have to compare them to paedophiles and Hitler. People tell me my views are irrational, but they just dont see how bad Marks are. If I saw a Mark on fire, I wouldn't piss on him to put it out.

[cavalier]

What if a person's view is irrational?
Some people are sickened by homosexuals, and yes, their feelings are very real. However, comparing homosexuality to paedophilia is irrational, no matter how much you are sickened by the act.
Homosexuality takes place between consenting adults, paedophilia does not.

[paul]

it's not irrational,
rape is rape.
peodophilier is not just rape, to even have desires to have sex with children, is something unnatural to me and many, in the same way that homosexuality is.