Female circumcision

[Muslimwoman]

Sorry this is a yukky post but I can't stop crying and wanted to share.

I was elated at the news, all over the web, that this barbaric act has finally been totally banned in Egypt. For those who do not know 97% of girls in Egypt (from all faiths and indeed no faith) have their clitoris removed before they begin menstruation. I do not want any of my fellow Muslims jumping in and saying "oh no it is just the tiniest peice of skin" because that is a bare faced lie told by people who want to minimise this issue, perhaps repeated out of ignorance but still a lie, the full clitoris, hood and often labia is removed. Last week a 12 year old girl died during this operation, may Allah bless her, and this prompted the ban. I could not have been happier, my sister in law has a 7 year old girl and I was panicking about what I could do to stop this.

Tonight I spoke with my husband on the phone and said I was so happy about this. He replied "what are you talking about, there is nothing on the news or in the newspaper here. This cannot be stopped it is our religion". So I asked him why Egypt is the only country in the middle east that does this, if it is our religion and why do the girls from other religions in Egypt have this done. He could give no answer. This is not even done in Saudi, where women are oppressed beyond belief.

I despair, I truely, truely despair, what sort of people am I living with. What humans are willing to do to their own children to hang on to a 5000 year old tradition and 'save face' in front of their neighbours is beyond belief. Sorry but I needed to share my sorrow, hurt and anger.

May I ask everyone, of every faith, to join me in prayer for this little girl and all the girls, of every faith, who will continue to be mutilated in this horrific way by ignorant parents.

May Allah forgive me for saying this but right now I wish I had never heard of the word religion.

[China Cat Sunflower]

I don't believe this barbaric practice has anything to do with Islam proper, so your husband's response is interesting. I didn't realize it was such a prevalent practice in Egypt until I just happened to read the WHO report looking for information on literacy rates for women. I don't pray in any formalized way, but I will pray in my way for your niece and every other little girl coming of age where this horrific mutilation is practiced.

Chris

[seattlegal]

Hi, muslimwoman. Perhaps this passage from the Hadith (Sahih Bukhari) might be helpful in convincing people against female circumcision:

Volume 3, Book 43, Number 654:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Yazid Al-Ansari:

The Prophet forbade robbery (taking away what belongs to others without their permission), and also forbade mutilation (or maiming) of bodies.

[Dondi]

That is terrible and barbaric. My prayers for all these girls who may be facing this. It is not like male circumcision at all, for it takes away the sexuality of a woman, while the male sexuality stays intact. It's like taking a part of you away. I cannot see how it could be God's will when He invented it.

[wil]

Between this and the tradition of re-virginizing girls it is absolutely amazing the control over women and their lives in some societies...

I am so insulated in the US I can hardly comprehend some of what I read.

My prayers are that the world wakes up and raises in consciousness.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I don't believe this barbaric practice has anything to do with Islam proper, so your husband's response is interesting. I didn't realize it was such a prevalent practice in Egypt until I just happened to read the WHO report looking for information on literacy rates for women. I don't pray in any formalized way, but I will pray in my way for your niece and every other little girl coming of age where this horrific mutilation is practiced.

Chris

Hi Chris

Hope you are well and getting through life, one day at a time.

This is the problem with Islam, so many opinions that disagree. There is nothing about this practice in the Quran and as far as I know only one hadith (which is considered by most not to be authentic) refers to it, where the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) said they were not to cut too deeply (ie do not remove the clitoris). But of course those that want to continue this barbaric practice say "the Prophet did not forbid it, so it is allowed". This is then exaggerated into it is a must. In Egypt the Grand Mufti has stated it is not an Islamic practice but other Imams in Al-Azhar disagree and site the hadith. So my husband has said that the government controls the Grand Mufti and he is Mobarak's puppet. Perhaps the same things were said when people wanted to abolish slavery or witch burning?

G-d hears all forms of prayer, so thank you.

Salaam

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Hi, muslimwoman. Perhaps this passage from the Hadith (Sahih Bukhari) might be helpful in convincing people against female circumcision:

Do I see a little light at the end of the tunnel? Wow, seattelgal, I have said it before and shall say it again - you are a fountain of knowledge. THANK YOU. How did you find this? I shall look this up in arabic and see if the translation is accurate. Not sure how far it would get me even if it is but I will not stop trying to get them to see the wrong they are doing.

Dondi & Wil. Thank you for your comments. Yes it is so easy to sit in our comfortable western lives, oblivious to the suffering of others. I have been asked why I stay in Egypt, with the poverty, corruption and mutilation of girls but to be honest if I were to leave it would not change anything, just allow me to hide from it. I love the people here, they are kind, caring and so funny but they just cannot let go of some old barbaric practices. To us that sounds silly, you just accept it is wrong and stop. Not so easy for them, who will stop first? Who will decide, against everything they have been taught and society believes (ie without this your daughter will grow up to be a slut) to stand up and say I will not do this to my child. The whole family would be 'shamed' and no-one would marry the girl when she grows up. This is where I get really mad with our scholars, why aren't the ones outside Egypt standing up and saying it is unIslamic, they are on the tv every night shouting about masterbation is a sin, do not grass on another Muslim but they say nothing about this age old barbaric ritual. I could just scream sometimes, in fact I think I will.

[LeoSalinas22]

hello mw,
i have been reading your posts and honestly don't know what to think about the religion of islam from what i am reading. i thought that islam was a very peaceful and understanding practice to attain knowledge of God, but it seems to me that it is very centered around doctrines made by man. just my opinion. i know my opinion or thoughts don't matter, but i am really disturbed by this act towards girls. shameful, indeed. the only thing i don't understand is that it seems like if you are awfully disappointed in your religion, what was it that got you to be a muslim to begin with? you don't, have to answer, but i will have you know that because of this practice alone and the way you express yourself about islam, i will perhaps stop seeking knowledge of God thru islam. sorry if i offend. thanks and God bless you...

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by LeoSalinas22

hello mw,
i have been reading your posts and honestly don't know what to think about the religion of islam from what i am reading. i thought that islam was a very peaceful and understanding practice to attain knowledge of God, but it seems to me that it is very centered around doctrines made by man. just my opinion. i know my opinion or thoughts don't matter, but i am really disturbed by this act towards girls. shameful, indeed. the only thing i don't understand is that it seems like if you are awfully disappointed in your religion, what was it that got you to be a muslim to begin with? you don't, have to answer, but i will have you know that because of this practice alone and the way you express yourself about islam, i will perhaps stop seeking knowledge of God thru islam. sorry if i offend. thanks and God bless you...

Hi Leo

I am not in the slightest offended. I love being a Muslim and shall continue to follow Islam, as I know it is a religion of peace and respect. The struggle comes from tradition and culture, not from the religion. Allow me to explain.

Take for example (and this is just a silly analogy so don't be offended), if a group of Christians in Stupidland decided that the teaching of Jesus (pbuh) was to crucify every second child at the age of 4.5 yrs and this practice had carried on for hundreds of years, with every person in that country believing this was what G-d wanted - does that make it Christianity? Say they found some old page of a gospel that hinted in a bizarre way that at one time this was accepted practice, does that make it ok and part of the religion? NO. It is just people following the wrongs of their fathers (something we are forbidden to do in Islam funnily enough).

So my frustration is not with Islam, it is with human beings. The issue of scholars speaking out and disagreeing, is again cultural. When I looked up different scholars opinions, I found that ones born and raised in countries that practice this barbarism believe it is acceptable, whilst those born and raised in countries that do not practice this state catagorically it is unIslamic. So it comes down to our education. No doubt you were taught as a boy that hitting girls is wrong, if a great and respected priest/vicar told you tomorrow that it is ok to hit girls, would you suddenly change your mind or hang on to that belief?

The answer is my religion is not at fault here, some of the people that follow that religion are at fault.

[flowperson]

Hi MW...A dreadful, dreadful situation. However this practice is still widespread throughout Africa and could probably be more accurately described as a cultural practice going back thousands of years, extant even before the advent of Islam on the continent. Of course this does not mollify or justify such a barbaric practice that is only instituted as a control measure in society mostly to perpetuate the predominance of men in that society.

Things like this take a long time to correct and the practice of the large and aggressive religions such as Islam and Christianity to enfold the existing cultural practices into their missionary ventures over the last 1,500 years does not help contemporary societies to cope with the problems this practice causes.

I can identify with your dilemma and position in your community. When significant change is needed it is so very difficult to effect it without having to make huge personal sacrifices. It's just the way things have always been in human communities.

flow....

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by flowperson

I can identify with your dilemma and position in your community. When significant change is needed it is so very difficult to effect it without having to make huge personal sacrifices. It's just the way things have always been in human communities.

flow....

Hi Flow

Thanks for your understanding. If I had a daughter, I would make any sacrifice, even death, to stop them doing this to her but as it is I have no idea how I can stop this being done to my neice. I have thought about declaring my intention to divorce my husband and leave Egypt if the family go ahead with this but how can that help? My husband does not agree with this practice but says he alone cannot change it, so can I punish him for his culture? They would be devastated if I left but the choice between me and what they perceive as necessary for the girls future is for them a simple choice I would imagine.

I have looked into this and it is believed that the practice goes back to the time of the Pharoes, about 5000 years. However, the museum here says there is no evidence of this on the mummies from the time, although later mummies do show this. It is also believed that the practice was brought here from Africa. Wow aren't people slow to learn....

[flowperson]

MW... Your are indeed in the corner of a box and it is something that you should move carefully on. I would say to be sure to, if you can, share your feelings with your niece person to person, but if that is not possible, support her and her family in any way possible so that they know in no uncertain terms that you believe this thing to be morally wrong.

As far as the historical aspects are concerned, the practice probably came up the Nile with migrations of Nubians back in the day, and then spread without regulation among ordinary people in Egypt depending upon their personal choices. As I said the coming of Islam probably was when the practice was formally institutionalized because it served certain social-political preferences of the ruling classes.

I would doubt that ancient Egyptian Royals advocated the practice since it was likely to be a slave-worker societal practice. Just my opinion you understand.

stay well...salaam...Flow....

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by flowperson

MW... Your are indeed in the corner of a box and it is something that you should move carefully on. I would say to be sure to, if you can, share your feelings with your niece person to person, but if that is not possible, support her and her family in any way possible so that they know in no uncertain terms that you believe this thing to be morally wrong.

I do wish you would speak to me more often Flow, you always talk such sense. I cannot move the mountain but I can let them know how I feel in no uncertain terms. They may still go ahead with it but at least I may be able to sleep at night knowing I at least tried to stop them. Possibly a more rational plan than my plan to kidnap my niece and smuggle her to UK Unfortunately she is only 7 and will no doubt see it as her 'right of passage' but that doesn't stop me explaining to her that there is an alternative.

Originally Posted by flowperson

I would doubt that ancient Egyptian Royals advocated the practice since it was likely to be a slave-worker societal practice. Just my opinion you understand.

Sounds a good theory. When I am back in Egypt I will go to the museaum and ask them and let you know if the slave/worker mummies have this.

alfa salaam

[KarimK]

Muslimwoman, is FGM widespread in Egypt? I mean, is it done to all girls? I can't believe that, I didn't even know this was done in Egypt.

Also, is it a taboo subject? It's weird, I also read that it was banned in Egypt after that little girl died... Lies?

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

The struggle comes from tradition and culture, not from the religion.

Exactly! and didn't Mohammad want to FIGHT these stupid, stupid, stupid traditions?!

I can't believe scholars from El Azhar are advocating FGM! It's revolting!

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by KarimK

Muslimwoman, is FGM widespread in Egypt? I mean, is it done to all girls? I can't believe that, I didn't even know this was done in Egypt.

Yes it is absolutely the norm. I looked at a great medical survey that showed that there is only 3% of women in their 50's with this, as President Nasser (I think it was) banned this practice and 16% of 25-35 year olds but now 97% of girls between 9 and 11 have had this done. Of course the study (which interviewed thousands of women) showed that the percentage depends largely on educational class. So the poor uneducated girls show 100 %, whereas girls of university graduates show a much lower percentage rate.

Originally Posted by KarimK

Also, is it a taboo subject? It's weird, I also read that it was banned in Egypt after that little girl died... Lies?

Not that I know of, although I have only really discussed it with my husband and a few close female relatives. It was made illegal in Egypt 10 years ago but they left a loophole a mile wide saying "doctors can perform this in exceptional circumstances". Of course unless a girl dies the barbers, midwives (I use the term loosely) and even plumbers that perform this operation are never arrested. This issue has only come about because the parents of the girl that died are trying to sue the doctor - of course no-one has asked the doctor why this operation was deemed necessary or asked the parents why they were doing this to their child. Even now it is just a ban and we will have to wait to see if it becomes legislation but I doubt that will stop the midwives. Stupid, stupid people.

Originally Posted by KarimK

Exactly! and didn't Mohammad want to FIGHT these stupid, stupid, stupid traditions?!

Correct. There are a number of teachings of Islam that goes against this practice. You are not allowed to harm yourself, you are not allowed to "do as your father did" and even the hadith about this issue, if authentic, said not to cut deeply - can you get deeper than total removal of the clitoris??????

Originally Posted by KarimK

I can't believe scholars from El Azhar are advocating FGM! It's revolting!

I read the opinion of one Egyptian scholar, who I believe now lives in Syria, he is normally very pro-women and anti-oppression and even he says this is allowed. It just shows you how hard it is to rid yourself of cultural beliefs.