Female circumcision

[China Cat Sunflower]

I lived in Kenya in the mid to late seventies when I was a teenager, and this practice of female circumcision was quite common among certain tribes. I remember the poor girls hobbling around at school.

Chris

[KarimK]

Funny, I wonder what the " exceptional circumstances " are, that require mutilating a girl...

It's weird, how is it the norm in Egypt and not in Middle-Eastern countries?

It's also strangely sick, when you think about it, that these women who are not circumcised do it to their own daughters...

And I still can't understand what the POINT of it all is ... the only thing I see is the fact that men (always - everywhere) have this huuuuuuge complex regarding women and pleasure. Of course, by performing FGM, you're keeping the sharaf or the karam of your family safe, aren't you...

[Muslimwoman]

[/quote]I lived in Kenya in the mid to late seventies when I was a teenager, and this practice of female circumcision was quite common among certain tribes. I remember the poor girls hobbling around at school. Chris[/quote]

I read recently that in some places in Africa they even sew the girl up, so that she just has a small hole for urinating, in order to protect her virginity. Makes you wish you had a big sponge that you could clean people's minds with.

Originally Posted by KarimK

Funny, I wonder what the " exceptional circumstances " are, that require mutilating a girl...

I have searched and searched and cannot find anything that gives medical reasons for this procedure.

It is frightening to see how quickly this has re-emerged in Egypt quite recently:

Fatwas published:

Fatwas are published opinions by Muslim religious scholars. They are non-binding in law. But Muslim believers are expected to follow them. In Egypt, a number of Fatwas have been issued by the influential Egyptian Fatwa Committee on FGM:
1949-MAY-28: They decided that it is not a sin to reject female circumcision.1951-JUN-23: They stated that female circumcision is desirable because it curbs "nature" (i.e. sexual drive among women). It stated that medical concerns over the practice are irrelevant.1981-JAN-29: The Great Sheikh of Al-Azhar (the most famous University of the Islamic World) stated that parents must follow the lessons of Mohammed and not listen to medical authorities because the latter often change their minds. Parents must do their duty and have their daughters circumcised.

I have read of men saying that it is necessary because it curbs desire, reduces rape (what???) and is cleaner. How about they have their penis removed, then desire and rape will fall to zero overnight.

Originally Posted by KarimK

It's weird, how is it the norm in Egypt and not in Middle-Eastern countries?

This is where the stupidity of man comes into it, get this for an excuse:

"When it was pointed out to him that parents in Morocco and Algeria do not practice FGM, he replied that the clitoris in Egyptian girls was larger than in those countries and had to be cut back to a normal size." (Mohammed Sayyed Tantawi - Al Azhar). and these are meant to be educated men.

Originally Posted by KarimK

It's also strangely sick, when you think about it, that these women who are not circumcised do it to their own daughters...

This is one of my problems, how can I possibly hug and kiss my sister in law if she does this to her daughter? For her it is a matter of honour, her daughter must not be seen as "unlcean" but to me she is a barbaric and ignorant mother. Oh the trials of life.

And I still can't understand what the POINT of it all is ... the only thing I see is the fact that men (always - everywhere) have this huuuuuuge complex regarding women and pleasure. Of course, by performing FGM, you're keeping the sharaf or the karam of your family safe, aren't you...[/quote]

See my next post but have your sick bag ready.....

[Muslimwoman]

I managed to find the email posted on the internet that is said to be from an African man defending female circumcision, I puts some bits in bold that I found particularly offensive - hope you have a strong stomach:

Why should this be? Circumcision has been popular among African women for many thousands of years. Western pressure groups attempt to blackmail African nations into banning the custom, but whenever moves are made to do this, the streets are filled with happy circumcised women demonstrating their desire to protect their daughters' right to enjoy the same benefits.


Here are some of the most obvious things that a girl gains when she is circumcised:

* it is a rite of passage and proof of adulthood. One day she is a girl; the next, a woman;

* it raises her status in her community, both because of the added purity that circumcision brings and the bravery that initiates are called upon to show;

* it confers maturity and inculcates positive character traits, including the ability to endure pain and a submissive nature;

* the circumcision ritual is an enjoyable one, in which the girl is the centre of attention and receives presents and moral instruction from her elders; Oh hell I'll have my clitoris cut out for a few pressies

* it creates a bond between the generations, as all women in that society must undergo it and thus have shared an important experience;

* the girl will never have her conscience troubled by lustful thoughts or sensations or temptations such as masturbation;

* there is little or no risk of premarital relationships which end in heartbreak or the stigma and social difficulties of illegitimate birth (this is especially so with full circumcision, i.e. all impure tissue is removed and the girl is sewn up until her wedding night);

* the bond between husband and wife is closer because neither will have had sex with anyone else and the relationship will be motivated by love rather than primarily lust, because there will be no physical drive for the women, only an emotional one;

* there is no incentive for extramarital sex, hence marriages are made more secure;

* there will be far fewer rapes (especially in the case of full circumcision);

* marriages are also made closer because the emphasis is taken away from sexual technique and performance; that's the ticket, cut your girls bits off so you don't have to make any effort in the sex department

* children are better cared-for because there is less incentive for a marriage to break up, and because the husband can be more confident that the children are his.

There are many ills in today's Western society which could easily be eradicated by the adoption of universal female circumcision with infibulation at puberty. Think of the positive impact on the teenage pregnancy rate in the US, which has been linked to the rise of crime and ghettoisation, especially for minorities. And it would create more peaceful, satisfied women - at the moment females are told that this little nub of skin, a vestigial penis, should have awesome phallic power. For most of them, it just doesn't, which creates dissatisfaction. because you cut the bloody thing out perhaps?
So, in answer to the question on your website: yes, I do believe that the girl in the picture should be circumcised. It will do her good, and she will thank you for it.


Now this is clearly quite an educated person, as his use of the english language is rather good, yet he actually believes this S**T. The world is mad - I rest my case.

[Tao_Equus]

Sometimes you have to bend a long way to understand and tolerate cultural differences. This one is beyond my flexibility. It is frankly an insane abuse of woman and any man that would allow his daughter to be so mutilated deserves to be held down and castrated with a broken bottle. The man you quote is the very worst kind of self-important fool and if i had the opportunity I would like to use a broken bottle on him myself.

My heart goes out to you MW. To be living in the midst of such brutal ignorance must be very trying on you. Be careful too.

Best wishes

TE

[China Cat Sunflower]

I dunno MW, this FGM thing is just the nasty tip of the iceberg when it comes to subjugating women. Speaking only for myself, I am very glad not to have any affiliation with a patriarchal milieu which promotes the subservience of women. I intend that my daughters enjoy freedom of sexuality and expression. How can they be reasonably expected to learn respect for themselves and their bodies if they are denied the freedom to own their own bodies and selves?

I think I will forgo the extended rant and just leave it there.

Chris

[flowperson]

MW...I think the most intellectually bankrupt phrase in the above that jumped out at me was " ...there will be no physical drive for the women, only an emotional one;". The last time I checked Masters and Johnson, it is impossible for anybody to have one without the other in a fulfilling sexual episode. That is, of course, unless one or both of the partners are brain dead... Ugh!

I'm with Tao on this situation as it may personally involve you, take it slow and easy. Your friends here care about you and your welfare my dear.

flow....

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by flowperson

MW...I think the most intellectually bankrupt phrase in the above that jumped out at me was " ...there will be no physical drive for the women, only an emotional one;". The last time I checked Masters and Johnson, it is impossible for anybody to have one without the other in a fulfilling sexual episode. That is, of course, unless one or both of the partners are brain dead... Ugh!

I'm with Tao on this situation as it may personally involve you, take it slow and easy. Your friends here care about you and your welfare my dear.

flow....

Thank you both Flow and TE and I do understand your anger Chris, even if we disagree on what daughters should be free to do.

Something else I find offensive is that when I ask young men here why they prefer european wives one of the reasons is always because "they are in tact and can enjoy sex". Yet these same young men will no doubt marry Egyptian women and grow up to follow the tradition and do this to their daughters.

There are so many cultural issues here I have learned to accept and some I even prefer to our western ones but as TE said, this may be beyond my flexibility. What I find really scary is, as I have said I am back in the UK now for a while, if I was still at home I may not have even heard of this ban.

I am so touched that you are worried about me, the worst that could happen is that I get divorced and return to my family in UK. I feel really guilty now because Egypt is a wonderful country and I love the people, so I don't want to paint them in a bad light. They just have this barbaric issue, which to them is anything but barbaric, they feel unable to let go of but nothing on G-d's green earth is going to make me accept it or even sit back quietly and mentally disapprove.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I managed to find the email posted on the internet that is said to be from an African man defending female circumcision, I puts some bits in bold that I found particularly offensive - hope you have a strong stomach:

Why should this be? Circumcision has been popular among African women for many thousands of years. Western pressure groups attempt to blackmail African nations into banning the custom, but whenever moves are made to do this, the streets are filled with happy circumcised women demonstrating their desire to protect their daughters' right to enjoy the same benefits.


Here are some of the most obvious things that a girl gains when she is circumcised:

* it is a rite of passage and proof of adulthood. One day she is a girl; the next, a woman;

* it raises her status in her community, both because of the added purity that circumcision brings and the bravery that initiates are called upon to show;

* it confers maturity and inculcates positive character traits, including the ability to endure pain and a submissive nature;

* the circumcision ritual is an enjoyable one, in which the girl is the centre of attention and receives presents and moral instruction from her elders; Oh hell I'll have my clitoris cut out for a few pressies

* it creates a bond between the generations, as all women in that society must undergo it and thus have shared an important experience;

* the girl will never have her conscience troubled by lustful thoughts or sensations or temptations such as masturbation;

* there is little or no risk of premarital relationships which end in heartbreak or the stigma and social difficulties of illegitimate birth (this is especially so with full circumcision, i.e. all impure tissue is removed and the girl is sewn up until her wedding night);

* the bond between husband and wife is closer because neither will have had sex with anyone else and the relationship will be motivated by love rather than primarily lust, because there will be no physical drive for the women, only an emotional one;

* there is no incentive for extramarital sex, hence marriages are made more secure;

* there will be far fewer rapes (especially in the case of full circumcision);

* marriages are also made closer because the emphasis is taken away from sexual technique and performance; that's the ticket, cut your girls bits off so you don't have to make any effort in the sex department

* children are better cared-for because there is less incentive for a marriage to break up, and because the husband can be more confident that the children are his.

There are many ills in today's Western society which could easily be eradicated by the adoption of universal female circumcision with infibulation at puberty. Think of the positive impact on the teenage pregnancy rate in the US, which has been linked to the rise of crime and ghettoisation, especially for minorities. And it would create more peaceful, satisfied women - at the moment females are told that this little nub of skin, a vestigial penis, should have awesome phallic power. For most of them, it just doesn't, which creates dissatisfaction. because you cut the bloody thing out perhaps?
So, in answer to the question on your website: yes, I do believe that the girl in the picture should be circumcised. It will do her good, and she will thank you for it.


Now this is clearly quite an educated person, as his use of the english language is rather good, yet he actually believes this S**T. The world is mad - I rest my case.

Is it just me, or do these arguments sound eerily similar to those for spaying/neutering your pet, while retaining the pet's ability to be bred? Are women human beings, or are they considered to be animals/pets/breeding machines?

[China Cat Sunflower]

* it confers maturity and inculcates positive character traits, including the ability to endure pain and a submissive nature;

Going off on a close tangent here. This makes me think of the prevalent child psychology of the nineteenth century. It was very strict and ever so cold and mechanical, but it was considered cutting edge modern and scientific in the day. Children have always had a bugger of a time, though. What caught my eye was the thing about learning to endure pain. There is a current of thought among the kiddie shrinks of the nineteenth century that children needed to be subjected to a program of disciplinary self-denial. Maybe this was to toughen them up for a hard life in the mills. Maybe it was just some weird kind of Calvinist self-mortification. I know I got whipped a lot "for my own good" coming up! And I know that came directly from the past through my dad's hand via the belt.

I think this idea of beating kids and and denying them their sexuality is an interesting thing to look at if one can but get around one's own self defense mechanisms and programming. It's an interesting self perpetuating mechanism by which the perceived sins of the flesh reinforce and sustain the fetishism which creates the dangerous aberration of our natural sexuality in the first place.

I guess that went a bit further than a close tangent.

Chris

[InLove]

MW, I have heard of this before from a previous thread here before you joined C-R. I don't remember the name of it or anything. I couldn't believe it then, and so I went searching and my heart just sank to find out how prevalent it is.

I have no doubt that if someone had tried to do that to me, my daddy would have personally seen to their demise! Like you, I believe he would have been willing to die first.

Why on earth would a man rather have a woman who can never be attracted to him in this intimate way? What a blessing these men are missing, especially in the case of a chaste woman who has kept herself this way by choice. Is it not akin to rape for a man to take a woman who does not really desire him? I guess not, if the woman agrees, but these girls don't have any choice. It's one thing for an adult to make these sort of choices, even if I can't fathom such, but it is nothing but slavery to do this to a child.

I keep trying to find the words I want to say, but they won't come to me. I'm holding your niece in my heart and lifting her up in prayer, and your sister-in-law, too. And you, too, by the way--sometimes I worry about you. I'm afraid you will say the wrong thing to the wrong person and attract trouble to yourself. But I do admire you for speaking out. It can't be an easy thing to do.

Salaam, dear MW

InPeace,
InLove

[KarimK]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Something else I find offensive is that when I ask young men here why they prefer european wives one of the reasons is always because "they are in tact and can enjoy sex". Yet these same young men will no doubt marry Egyptian women and grow up to follow the tradition and do this to their daughters.

You won't believe what I can hear at times : "Yeah, European women. They're good for having fun when you're young. But once you want to settle down, get serious, you have to marry a nice, local, Arabic girl. Because you know how these Europeans, they're mostly sluts. You don't want to marry a woman who has had sex with other men... what about your honor?"

And guess what? These are not the words of elderly stuck-up-living-in-another-age people. These are the words of my friends who are supposed to know better.

* the bond between husband and wife is closer because neither will have had sex with anyone else

I'd laugh if it wasn't so mind-numbingly stupid. Because everyone knows that the girl needs to be mutilated so as not to have sex before marriage, whereas the guy doesn't need any help and will, without a doubt, stay a virgin until he gets married... Because men, they tend to same themselves for marriage...

Honestly, MW, even I have a hard time comprehending most of these "cultural" (eugh) traits... and I'm supposed to be used to it. I have no idea how you can put up with it, it must be very, very hard.

[wil]

With all our western attitude and platitudes about what we consider human rights violations and aberrant behavior, we are truly quite hypocritical on these issues.

I am no cultural anthropologist but seems to me that in most parts of the world a raise in consciousness in this regard came after some economic parity, increase in education and a general rise for most of the population on Maslow's hierarchy.

We are two centuries into freedom 1.5 into the abolishment of slavery, 1 in women's right to vote, barely .5 in civil rights...ie all people are created equal...

In the overall scheme of things we are just like an ex-smoker who has only quit for a month telling everyone else they oughta ban smoking everywhere, despite the fact that we were adamant supporters of the negative behavior just recently.

While it all is awful and something should be done....I think it is like supplying water to the desert by pouring it into the sand...first we need to provide the cups, and cisterns, and pipelines (build steps up maslow's hierarchy)

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

For those who do not know 97% of girls in Egypt (from all faiths and indeed no faith) have their clitoris removed before they begin menstruation.

What? How? I mean..... *pause*

How do they have it removed? Who FORCES that?... Like if some Jew(or perhaps other religious person) came up to me and said oh circumcision time, I'd just give him a back hand.... If you are not part of some religious faith and you don't buy into it, why the hell would you have a circumcision formed? And it is kinda different to a male circumcision, that only removes skin.... What you are removing is surley classed as a nerve end?

[KarimK]

That's the point, 17th (what's short for your nick? 17th or Angel? or none? :P). It's not faith, it's tradition. It has nothing to do with religion. Stupidity pretty much ignores religious boundaries.

Wil, should the guy who just recently stopped smoking refrain from telling others to stop too, just because he was wrong in the past? This isn't about being eurocentric and priggish. It's about basic common sense. Poverty and misery aren't excuses for barbarity.