Fatwas and Osama Bin Ladin

[Yaqinud Din]

I disagree Muslims have done alot we say over and over that we disagree with OBL and all people like him but the truth is bad Muslims make good news in the west thats a fact.

I'm very sick of people saying do more do more we can only do what we can do and we have done alot.

Devadatta you are not a Muslim so you don't know what is going on in the Muslim community we are doing alot in the cummunity but you can't see it because your not a part of the community.


Devadatta go tell the Muslim familys who have had family members killed by bigots in the usa and Europe and to worry.

[Devadatta]

Originally Posted by Yaqinud Din

I disagree Muslims have done alot we say over and over that we disagree with OBL and all people like him but the truth is bad Muslims make good news in the west thats a fact.

I'm very sick of people saying do more do more we can only do what we can do and we have done alot.

Devadatta you are not a Muslim so you don't know what is going on in the Muslim community we are doing alot in the cummunity but you can't see it because your not a part of the community.


Devadatta go tell the Muslim familys who have had family members killed by bigots in the usa and Europe and to worry.

I don't know if I quite understand your last comment, but otherwise I appreciate your honest response. You're right to be frustrated. You see the merits of your culture from the inside, and know the 90% that's going right as opposed to the 10% that's going wrong.

But as an ordinary person I have a right to be concerned. It's not just that I'm potentially at risk taking a bus to work in the morning - that's the least of it. It's the long term pattern that most concerns me: a downward spiral of increased jihadism met by increased military action by the West. We're heading in a potentially disastrous direction that could make what's happened so far seem trivial.

And sure, people are making efforts on all sides, and I don't mean to sound apocalyptic. But I also think the danger is real and we can hardly afford to relax or be too polite in the face of it.

Again, I respect your frustration and know that your impulse to defend the honour of your culture is honourable. And realistically as a single person you can on only deal with so much. I don't know where you're writing from, but wherever you are will have its own specific context and perspective on what needs to be done.

But what I have observed on this forum is that I've yet to hear from any Muslim admitting to any systemic problem, whether on the level of government, religion or culture. No Muslim from KSA, for example, has ever remotely criticized his or her own government. Instead, the responses have nearly uniformly been what I would call exercises in public relations.

Like the frustration you've expressed, this of course is understandable. My impression is that many Muslims still see themselves as underdogs if not altogether under the thumb of the West. So it's not easy to look in the mirror.

The pressing reality remains, however. And as an ordinary person I have the right to urge everyone to look in that mirror. And you have a right to your own frustrations. If these reciprocal rights result in an honest exchange like this, I think it's a good thing, and probably about as much as a forum like this can accomplish.

Peace to you & your family, wherever you are.

(Please check out the thread I'm just about to start in the politics section: Where the West is wrong.)

[thipps]

Originally Posted by Devadatta

Hi Thipps.

Leaving aside the two Sheiks you mention, which were cited earlier in the thread, the 500 Imams are based in the U.K., and CAIR is based in Washington D.C. – and then there’s the Muslims leaders I cited in Canada. Do we see a pattern here?

No, i dont. Maybe because you missed where i mentioned "Sheikh Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi, considered a high authority for the world’s one billion Sunni Muslims, has repeatedly condemned terrorism in all its forms."
Let me add that earlier this year, a leading Saudi cleric Sheikh Abdulrahman Al-Sudeis told pilgrims to Makkah that “faith does not mean killing Muslims or non-Muslims living among us. It does not mean shedding blood, terrorizing or sending body parts flying.”
I agree with Yaqinud Din. A few nut-heads blowing themselves up makes for better news than the saudis issuing rulings against terrorism. Thats why you think muslims are not doing enough. The thing is who's listening? Some fool comes on the television and (the news-caster having claimed the speaker being an expert and everyone obviously believing so) says 'Muslims arent doing enough'... people will believe it.

Of course I could be wrong, and would be happy to be proved so, but understand that among non-Muslims my opinion is not uncommon. And it’s not an opinion based on racism or bigotry or hatred of Islam or the belief that Al Qaeda represents Islam. It’s based on the simple observation that a virus originating from Muslim countries continues to spread and the Muslim world as a whole appears fairly passive or acquiescent in the face of it.
The political complications are of course enormous. Many hands have stirred the pot. American money, Western money, and Saudi money have all gone to the funding and training of jihadis, first to fight the Russians in Afghanistan. Pakistan, for its own complicated political and strategic reasons has variously supported, tolerated or been intimidated by jihadis grown on its own soil. Not just one genie but thousands have been created and let out of the bottle. This is a hideous problem.

Firstly, stop using the word "jihadis" as if it is synonymous with terrorists. It really doesnt help anyone. I dont like to say this to people but (its unavoidable) those who use it in that way show thier ignorance. Stop using terms that the media or whoever it is teaches you.The word terrorism came into wide usage only a few decades ago. One of the unfortunate results of this new terminology is that it limits the definition of terrorism to that perpetrated by small groups or individuals. Terrorism spans the entire world & manifests itself in various forms. Its perpetrators do not fit any stereotype (eventhough it is now being seen in the UK specifically that if you aint a white-guy, better be careful or you could get killed by the police). Those who hold human lives cheap & have the power to expend human lives, appear at different levels in our societies. An individual who blows himself up on a civilian bus has committed an act of terrorism. Likewise, “carpet bombing” of entire cities, & using the weapon of sanctions that starve tens of thousands of children to death, is also an act of terrorism.
Secondly, i feel that either you are confused or you just put the blame for all these terrorist acts on Muslims worldwide when you said "It’s based on the simple observation that a virus originating from Muslim countries". Nothing could be further from the truth as we have been trying to tell people around the world that these are individual acts not sanctioned by Islam. it seems it is falling on deaf ears. you admit that "American money, Western money" has stirred the pot... The reality is that you seem not to understand that the latter made the pot and put the fire under it as well. As you sow, so shall you reap. You seem obsessed with Bin laden. who do you think trained and armed him?

But you know I have simple messages for both sides, the West and Islam. On my side of the pond, I say forget about dully wondering “why do they hate us”, and do more than the never-ending round of hunting down the bad guys. Find out what’s going on from our end and make structural and political changes, and changes in the shape of alliances which have become counter productive. The time of either apologetics or apologies for Western power is over. It’s time for intelligent rather than simply military action.

You wont find me appologizing for the actions of a few nut-heads either. And lets not insult the intelligence of people by thinking and making others think that these things are done because "they hate our way of life. they hate freedom..." bla bla bla. I've heard it enough times from BUsh/Blair and Co. On american radio shows etc. I seriously wonder who is foolish enough to believe what these people are saying.

And to Muslims I say the time of public relations is over. The bigots are not your problem. Your problems are within your midst. I personally feel no compunction or guilt in claiming that Muslims are not doing enough and in urging Muslims to do more. It’s been said many times that this highjacking of Islam is a Muslim problem and can only be solved by Muslims. I believe that. But the rest of us can’t be content to sit by, wringing our hands, out of fear of offending.

It may an extraordinary presumption on my part to speak so directly. But there are far more terrible things going on than a bit of plain & honest speech between fellow human beings.

Peace to you, your family & your country.

Everyone should condemn terrorists who kill innocents. And similarly, we should surely condemn leaders of the international community for allowing millions of Palestinians to be deprived of their land, freedom & rights for more than half-a-century;for ultimately condoning the illegal invasion of Iraq, which we all know was waged on a succession of false pretexts;the 500,000 Iraqi children who lost their lives due to US-led sanctions on their country, a loss that was termed by a former US Secretary of State as being “worth it”. thier foriegn policies are geared in the wrong direction. As far as I can see, if the West were to put its own house in order, the terrorists would either fade away or be completely & utterly isloted so that they would choke to death.
Hope that was honest enough for you.

[Devadatta]

Originally Posted by thipps

No, i dont. Maybe because you missed where i mentioned "Sheikh Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi, considered a high authority for the world’s one billion Sunni Muslims, has repeatedly condemned terrorism in all its forms.".

Hi Thipps. I posted a complete reply to your post in the "Politics & Society" section and in the thread "Where the west is wrong". I thought it made more sense there, in terms of what we've been discussing.

Cheers.

[su13]

Hi there,

Thought this link might be useful for the purposes of this discussion...

http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm


This link leads to a collection of Muslim statements condemning the 9/11 attacks and targeting of civilians. As you'll see, many of these statements come from outside North America and Europe. The fatwa of Sheikh Yusuf Qaradawi (and other Egyptian scholars) is particularly enlightening, and it's reproduced in verbatim below:

"Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi [Grand Islamic Scholar and Chairman of the Sunna and Sira Council, Qatar]
Judge Tariq al-Bishri [First Deputy President of the Council d'etat, Ret., Egypt]
Dr. Muhammad S. al-Awa [Professor of Comparative Law and Shari'a, Egypt]
Dr. Haytham al-Khayyat [Islamic Scholar, Syria]
Mr. Fahmi Houaydi [Islamic Author and Columnist, Egypt]
Sheikh Taha Jabir al-Alwani [Chairman of the North America Fiqh Council, Sterling, Va.]


This English version was translated from the original Arabic, authorized and approved by authors of the statement.

Following is the fatwa text:

In The Name of God, The Compassionate, The Merciful

Legal Fatwa

This is the reply to the (religious) inquiry presented by Mr. Muhammad Abdur-Rashid, the most senior Muslim chaplain in the American Armed forces. It concerns the permissibility of the Muslim military personnel within the US armed forces to participate in the war operations and its related efforts in Afghanistan and elsewhere in other Muslim countries.

In his question he states that the goals of the (war) operations are:

1) Retaliation against those "who are thought to have participated" in planning and financing the suicide operations on September 11th, against civilian and military targets in New York and Washington (he then detailed the consequences of these operations.)

2) Eliminating the elements that use Afghanistan and elsewhere as safe haven, as well as deterring the governments which harbor them, sanction them, or allow them the opportunity for military training in order to achieve their goals around the world.

3) Restoring the veneration and respect to the US as a sole superpower in the world.

Furthermore, he concludes his inquiry by mentioning that the number of the Muslim military personnel, in the three branches of the American armed forces, exceeds fifteen thousand soldiers. Hence, if they refuse to participate in fighting, they will have no choice but to resign, which might also entail other consequences. Finally, he asks if it is permissible, to those who can transfer, to serve in different capacities other than direct fighting.

The reply:

Praise be to God and peace and blessing be upon the messengers of God. We say: This question presents a very complicated issue and a highly sensitive situation for our Muslim brothers and sisters serving in the American army as well as other armies that face similar situations. All Muslims ought to be united against all those who terrorize the innocents, and those who permit the killing of non-combatants without a justifiable reason. Islam has declared the spilling of blood and the destruction of property as absolute prohibitions until the Day of Judgment. God (glory be to He) said: " Because of that We ordained unto the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a human being - unless it be in punishment for murder or for spreading mischief on earth- it would be as though he killed all of humanity; whereas, if anyone saved a life, it would be as though he saved the life of all humanity. And indeed, there came to them Our messengers with clear signs (proofs and evidences), even then after that,
many of them continued to commit mischief on earth." 5:32

Hence, whoever violates these pointed Islamic texts is an offender deserving of the appropriate punishment according to their offence and according to its consequences for destruction and mischief.

It's incumbent upon our military brothers in the American armed forces to make this stand and its religious reasoning well known to all their superiors, as well as to their peers, and to voice it and not to be silent. Conveying this is part of the true nature of the Islamic teachings that have often been distorted or smeared by the media.

If the terrorist acts that took place in the US were considered by the Islamic Law (Shar'iah) or the rules of Islamic jurisprudence (Fiqh), the ruling for the crime of "Hirabah" (waging war against society) would be applied to their doers. God (Glory be to He) said: "The recompense of those who wage war against God and His Messenger and do mischief on earth is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is
their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter. Except for those who (having fled away and then) came back with repentance before they fall into your power; (in that case) know that God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." 5: 33-34

Therefore, we find it necessary to apprehend the true perpetrators of these crimes, as well as those who aid and abet them through incitement, financing or other support. They must be brought to justice in an impartial court of law and punish them appropriately, so that it could act as deterrent to them and to others like them who easily slay the lives of innocents, destroy properties and terrorize people. Hence, it's a duty on Muslims to participate in this effort with all possible means, in
accordance with God's (Most High) saying: "And help one another in virtue and righteousness, but do not help one another in sin and transgression." 5:2.

On the other hand, the source of the uneasiness that American Muslim military men and women may have in fighting other Muslims, is because it's often difficult- if not impossible- to differentiate between the real perpetrators who are being pursued, and the innocents who have committed no crime at all. The authentic saying by the prophet states: "When two Muslims face each other in fighting and one kills the other, then both the killer and the killed are in the hell-fire. Someone said: we understand
that the killer is in hell, why then the one who's being killed? The prophet said: because he wanted to kill the other person." (Narrated by Bukhari and Muslim.)

The noble Hadith mentioned above only refers to the situation where the Muslim is in charge of his affairs. He is capable of fighting as well as capable of not fighting. This Hadith does not address the situation where a Muslim is a citizen of a state and a member of a regular army. In this case, he has no choice but to follow orders, otherwise his allegiance and loyalty to his country could be in doubt. This would subject him to much harm since he would not enjoy the privileges of citizenship without performing its obligations.

The Muslim (soldier) must perform his duty in this fight despite the feeling of uneasiness of "fighting without discriminating." His intention (niyya) must be to fight for enjoining of the truth and defeating falsehood. It's to prevent aggression on the innocents, or to apprehend the perpetrators and bring them to justice. It's not his concern what other consequences of the fighting that might result in his personal discomfort, since he alone can neither control it nor prevent it. Furthermore, all deeds are accounted (by God) according to the intentions. God (the Most High) does not burden any soul except what it can bear. In addition, Muslim jurists have ruled that what a Muslim cannot control he cannot be held accountable for, as God (the Most High) says: "And keep your duty to God as much as you can." 64:16. The prophet (prayer and peace be upon him) said: " when I ask of you to do something, do it as much as you can." The Muslim here is a part of a whole, if he absconds, his departure will result in a greater harm, not only for him but also for the Muslim community in his country - and here there are many millions of them. Moreover, even if fighting causes him discomfort spiritually or psychologically, this personal hardship must be endured for the greater public good, as the jurisprudence (fiqhi) rule states.

Furthermore, the questioner inquires about the possibility of the Muslim military personnel in the American armed forces to serve in the back lines - such as in the relief services' sector and similar works. If such requests are granted by the authorities, without reservation or harm to the soldiers, or to the other American Muslim citizens, then they should request that. Otherwise, if such request raises doubts about their allegiance or loyalty, cast suspicions, present them with false accusations, harm their future careers, shed misgivings on their patriotism, or similar sentiments, then it's not permissible to ask for that.

To sum up, it's acceptable - God willing- for the Muslim American military personnel to partake in the fighting in the upcoming battles, against whomever, their country decides, has perpetrated terrorism against them. Keeping in mind to have the proper intention as explained earlier, so no doubts would be cast about their loyalty to their country, or to prevent harm to befall them as might be expected. This is in accordance with the Islamic jurisprudence rules which state that necessities dictate exceptions, as well as the rule that says one may endure a small harm to avoid a much greater harm.

And God the Most High is Most Knowledgeable and Most Wise.

Rajab 10, 1422 AH / September 27, 2001

Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi [Grand Islamic Scholar and Chairman of the Sunna and Sira Council, Qatar]
Judge Tariq al-Bishri [First Deputy President of the Council d'etat, Ret., Egypt]
Dr. Muhammad S. al-Awa [Professor of Comparative Law and Shari'a, Egypt]
Dr. Haytham al-Khayyat [Islamic Scholar, Syria]
Mr. Fahmi Houaydi [Islamic Author and Columnist, Egypt]
Sheikh Taha Jabir al-Alwani [Chairman of the North America Fiqh Council, Sterling, Va.] This English version was translated from the original Arabic, authorized and approved by authors of the statement.

[Devadatta]

Originally Posted by su13

Following is the fatwa text:

In The Name of God, The Compassionate, The Merciful

Legal Fatwa

This is the reply to the (religious) inquiry presented by Mr. Muhammad Abdur-Rashid, the most senior Muslim chaplain in the American Armed forces. It concerns the permissibility of the Muslim military personnel within the US armed forces to participate in the war operations and its related efforts in Afghanistan and elsewhere in other Muslim countries.

In his question he states that the goals of the (war) operations are:

1) Retaliation against those "who are thought to have participated" in planning and financing the suicide operations on September 11th, against civilian and military targets in New York and Washington (he then detailed the consequences of these operations.)

2) Eliminating the elements that use Afghanistan and elsewhere as safe haven, as well as deterring the governments which harbor them, sanction them, or allow them the opportunity for military training in order to achieve their goals around the world.

3) Restoring the veneration and respect to the US as a sole superpower in the world.

Thanks very much for passing this along, along with the link. This is quite an interesting historical document, from more than one point of view. One thing I noticed is that the ruling didn't deal with point #3, the status of the U.S. as the sole superpower - and I guess for good reason, since the idea of a "sole superpower" is a controversial notion, and not just for Muslims.

Thanks again & all the best.

[thipps]

Originally Posted by Devadatta

Hi Thipps. I posted a complete reply to your post in the "Politics & Society" section and in the thread "Where the west is wrong". I thought it made more sense there, in terms of what we've been discussing.
Cheers.

h|,
The thread was fine here. Islam is a way of life. Politics is a part of life. Islam has politics in it. Ofcourse, what islam means by politics is a separate issue. anyway, there was no need to take my comments from the thread and post in another place but you have already done that. You should have asked my permission. I thought you wanted a Muslim perspective on the issue. oh well.

[Devadatta]

Originally Posted by thipps

h|,
The thread was fine here. Islam is a way of life. Politics is a part of life. Islam has politics in it. Ofcourse, what islam means by politics is a separate issue. anyway, there was no need to take my comments from the thread and post in another place but you have already done that. oh well.

I understand. But the message I've been gettin repeatedly is that Bin Laden and other terrorists are not properly speaking Muslims at all, since they are not submitting themselves to the will of God, and that Islam as religion is not in question. So I moved our conversation out of sensitivity to those opinions, and also because I felt we were moving into issues that were essentially political.

Now, I know that Islam has a more unitary conception of society than does Canada, for example, where I live, which follows the model of separation of church & state. However, I would maintain that even in Muslim countries the unitary conception is more ideal than real: politics pure & simple I think are always involved.

All the best.