Faith is exempt from reason?

[_Z_]

i think the ultimate nature of reality lies beyond the descriptive world! faith is like self - it cannot be defined yet is a most primary and fundamental nature of reality. faith is like a link between that self and the ultimate - one [the singular] dancing with the one [the infinite or 'god'].

you cant put everything in a test tube its a place that heiniken [the beer] acannot even reach.

[lunamoth]

Here's a little bit from Thomas Merton:

Faith, without depending on reason for the slightest shred of justification, never contradicts reason and remains ever reasonable. Faith does not destroy reason, but fulfills it. Nevertheless, there must always remain a delicate balance between the two. Two extremes are to be avoided: credulity and skepticism; superstition and rationalism. If this balance is upset, if man relies too much on his five senses and on his reason when faith should be his teacher, then he enters into illusion. Or when, in defiance of reason, he gives the assent of his faith to a fallible authority, then too he falls into illusion. Reason is in fact the path to faith, and faith takes over when reason can say no more. (Ascent to Truth)

Another from Merton,

Deum tamquam ignotum cognoscimus, says Saint Thomas. "We know God as unknown." Far from declaring that He is unknowable, Catholic dogma knows God, and knows Him in His infinite transcedence: and Catholic mysticism knows Him by experience.

On this foundation are built Catholic philosophy and speculative theology. They are, in strict truth, sciences. In fact, they are the highest of sciences. They are not the pragmatic rationalization of vague spiritual desires. On the levels of both philosophy and theology, Catholic thought has a value that is speculative and absolute. That is to say, it arrives at conclusions about God which are endowed with a genuine scientific certitude, because they can be proved, by clear demonstration, to proceed with inexorable logic from basic principles which are self-evident, in the case of philosophy, and revealed by God in the case of theology.

So, as Q implies, is revelation from God less of a basis for logic than something that is "self-evident?"

peace,
lunamoth

[seattlegal]

Those are some great quotes, lunamoth!

Originally Posted by lunamoth

So, as Q implies, is revelation from God less of a basis for logic than something that is "self-evident?"
peace,
lunamoth

I'll add some from Albert Einstein:

When the solution is simple, God is answering. --Albert Einstein

We should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality.
--Albert Einstein
Out of My Later Years, ch. 51 (1950)

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a
faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the
servant and has forgotten the gift.--Albert Einstein

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by _Z_

i think the ultimate nature of reality lies beyond the descriptive world! faith is like self - it cannot be defined yet is a most primary and fundamental nature of reality. faith is like a link between that self and the ultimate - one [the singular] dancing with the one [the infinite or 'god'].

you cant put everything in a test tube its a place that heiniken [the beer] acannot even reach.

Hello, Z, I also have an Einstein quote for you:

The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of true art and true science. Whoever does not know it and can no longer wonder, no longer marvel, is as good as dead, and his eyes are dimmed. It was the experience of mystery -- even if mixed with fear -- that engendered religion. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, our perceptions of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which only in their most primitive forms are accessible to our minds: it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute true religiosity. In this sense, and only this sense, I am a deeply religious man.
--Albert Einstein
Living Philosophies, "The World As I See It" (1931)

[_Z_]

Thanx for the quote seattlegal! I like ole albert he makes a lot of sense, it annoys me when rationalists discount religion out of hand, they are so sure they are right! I challenge them at other forums yet they cannot answer! I feel humanity is at a great philosophical period in time and that nothing is set in stone, indeed none of us are right or completely wrong, so I’ll continue to learn from all perspectives and except philosophies from all sources.

respect

Z [also known as 'attila' - because of my sharp and agressive debating][i do try not to be like that here alas i sometimes slip].