Expectations?

[9Harmony]

What if, God consistently utilizes the same tools from age to age, but yet humanity repeatedly fails to learn the lessons of the past and continually expects the next messenger to literally fulfill all of the prophecies with exuberance and fanfare? Our ancestors throughout history expected and we continue to expect that we will all recognize Him when He comes. We literally expect Jesus to return on clouds from the sky. Why would we expect that?

Could it be because the scriptures always describe such an event in gloriously descriptive language? But history tells us that the way of God is not a way of literal earthly fanfare, but a spiritual one, the power and glory described in the scriptures has never been about the literal description of earthly events, but rather of heavenly ones. Why would God do it any differently the next time. While we continually look to the sky for His descent, we may miss what is going on right under our noses.

The history of each religion teaches us that the expected unfoldment of prophecy, by those whose job it was to know, was in fact an illusion created by fallible human beings attempting to decipher the word of God through intellectual/literal means. Because of a mis-perception based on their attachment to a manmade illusion, they were incapable of recognizing the truth standing right before their eyes. The first followers of each religion were not the learned men of the age, time after time, the meek and humble were the ones who recognized the spiritual implications of these prophecies, and Jesus reiterated that this will be the case again.

God does indeed work in mysterious ways. Part of the mystery is that He's consistent, but yet we continue to make the same mistakes of the past and fail to recognize or acknowledge that wonderfully simple fact.

The lesson: No one should be too attached to what we think we know, our perceptions can be clouded by any number of things, how can we be sure our perceptions are accurate? We should all be humble and open to receive guidance from above in our quest for truth. Our thirst for truth will compel us ever forward, beseeching God for guidance and assistance, He will answer us, if our quest is of pure intent. 'seek and ye shall find'.

We should never accept what someone tells us as truth. In this day, the majority of the world is literate, so we can read scriptures from their source ourselves, and determine through our own God-given faculties truth from falsehood. We do not need to rely on others to interpret scripture for us anymore. We are encouraged to look into everything with a searching eye. God is showing tremendous faith in us. He recognizes our spiritual maturity, even if we don't.

How many of our religious/spiritual perceptions are based on what others have told us throughout our lives? Isn't it time we grow up? It's our own choice whether or not to undertake responsibility for our own spiritual growth and well-being.

I believe that if we can do that, we will begin to recognize the similiarities throughout religious history and see how they compliment each other perfectly. Everyday we witness the interconnectedness of all aspects of life. Weaving a glorious tapestry of His grand design. God is One. We are all His children.

To me it all makes perfect sense. God's way is amazingly simple. We (humanity) are responsible for complicating the issues. It's no wonder we continue to make the same mistakes over and over again. When the call is raised...will we be open to the accepting something other than that which we expect?

Have a wonderful day!

[Dondi]

The reason we are always making the same mistakes is that each generation has to learn it's own lessons. I believe those lessons can't be taught from a book or even from history, but from experience. Each one of us is responsible to God individually, but we are also accountable to God in our respective nations. God will judge all nations one day, therefore we must be involved in the affairs of our nations as well as our community, family, and personal lives.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by 9Harmony

The lesson: No one should be too attached to what we think we know, our perceptions can be clouded by any number of things, how can we be sure our perceptions are accurate?

You make the appeal, but do you accept it yourself?

Can you actually state that Baha'u'llah got some things wrong? That the Baha'i movement can make real mistakes? That the Universal House of Justice sometimes makes bad decisions?

Because if not, it would seem that you would be making the exact same mistakes you are stating that other people make.

[arthra]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

You make the appeal, but do you accept it yourself?

Can you actually state that Baha'u'llah got some things wrong? That the Baha'i movement can make real mistakes? That the Universal House of Justice sometimes makes bad decisions?

Because if not, it would seem that you would be making the exact same mistakes you are stating that other people make.

Maybe there's a sensitivity here Brian that should be discussed somewhere?

I think Harmony is simply exploring the general human condition and isn't promoting Baha'i Faith above any thing else.

Her statement:

"How many of our religious/spiritual perceptions are based on what others have told us throughout our lives? Isn't it time we grow up? It's our own choice whether or not to undertake responsibility for our own spiritual growth and well-being.

I believe that if we can do that, we will begin to recognize the similiarities throughout religious history and see how they compliment each other perfectly."

is really quite generally applicable... Don't you think?

- Art

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

That the Universal House of Justice sometimes makes bad decisions?

It should be noted that the House of Justice can change decisions it makes:

"Among the powers and duties with which the Universal House of Justice has been invested are:...

To enact laws and ordinances not expressly recorded in the Sacred Texts; to abrogate, according to the changes and requirements of the time, its own enactments; to deliberate and decide upon all problems which have caused difference; to elucidate questions that are obscure; to safeguard the personal rights, freedom and initiative of individuals; and to give attention to the preservation of human honour, to the development of countries and the stability of states..."The Constitution of the Universal House of Justice.

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Can you actually state that Baha'u'llah got some things wrong?

"Finally, He said: `Bid them recite: "Is there any Remover of difficulties save God? Say: Praised be God! He is God! All are His servants, and all abide by His bidding!" Tell them to repeat it five hundred times, nay, a thousand times, by day and by night, sleeping and waking, that haply the Countenance of Glory may be unveiled to their eyes, and tiers of light descend upon them.' "3/4ths down the page

1517. There are no Special Instructions for Repeating prayers of the Bab

"Concerning the prayer for difficulty revealed by the Bab; he wishes me to inform you that it is not accompanied by the instructions for its recital.[*]"
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, March 6, 1937)

"Regarding your questions: The Guardian feels it is not necessary to repeat the Bab's prayer so many times."[**]
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, September 30, 1950)
[*] Written in response to a question as to how often this prayer should repeated to produce the greatest results.

[**] Written in response to a question about the repetition 114 times in the morning for 19 days of the prayer of the Bab,'Say! God sufficeth all things above all things'.

quoted in Lights of Guidance and mentioned here about 90% down the page.

[9Harmony]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

You make the appeal, but do you accept it yourself?

Can you actually state that Baha'u'llah got some things wrong? That the Baha'i movement can make real mistakes? That the Universal House of Justice sometimes makes bad decisions?

Because if not, it would seem that you would be making the exact same mistakes you are stating that other people make.

Hi Brian,

lol! i asked for that one didn't i?

you'll note i didn't mention the Baha'i Faith in my initial post. I just put forth what i believe is a rational explanation of religious history, and wonder why it's so impossible to believe. Why would God change His ways now? Just food for thought...

But if you really want me to answer your questions... (if not, feel free to delete the following)

Well, actually, I've already gone through this process in arriving where i am. I had to let go of many preconceived ideas that i had. But of course it is an ongoing lifelong process of learning and by no means is mine complete. I have learned to not discount things that seem odd, just because they seem odd. I've discovered many a treasure hidden in unusual places.

More specifically...

Believing that Baha'u'llah was who He said He was, (imho) no, i cannot state that Baha'u'llah got things wrong. I believe that He taught what was appropriate for this age. But that is not to say that when the next messenger comes, He/She will not change anything that Baha'u'llah taught, He/She most likely will. Just as I would never say that Jesus or Buddha or Mohammed got anything wrong, i do not believe they did, i believe some of their followers got things wrong, but the true teachings of each of the prophets, was what was necessary to convey the appropriate lessons for their age and society.

As for the Baha'i movement, yes, the Baha'i Faith is made up of human beings, and human beings make mistakes. We are not immune to that aspect of human nature, but hopefully we will learn from those mistakes, and grow in the process.

As for the Universal House of Justice, i suppose it's possible that they could make a bad decision, but highly unlikely in my view. (imho)The Universal House of Justice is a Divine Institution and is protected when operating in that capacity. They may make a decision which may seem wrong at the time, but in hindsight, the wisdom in that decision becomes apparent.

I don't expect you or anyone else to concur with my conclusions, you can arrive at your own conclusion in whatever way you see fit. I was simply offering food for thought, i thought.



The difference in this circumstance i think is that my expectations at this point are much different. My vantage point differs in that I am no longer looking at the sky for His descent, I am looking at the world for signs of His Kingdom. When the next messenger appears though, it's quite possible that history will repeat itself once again.

Have a great evening!

-Amy

[9Harmony]

Originally Posted by Dondi

The reason we are always making the same mistakes is that each generation has to learn it's own lessons. I believe those lessons can't be taught from a book or even from history, but from experience...

Hi Dondi,

I agree experience is valuable. But wouldn't it be wise to take note of the experiences of our forefathhers as well? If each generation HAS to learn it's own lessons without utilizing lessons of the past, how could we have progressed as far as we have? We do learn from history. But selectively.

Have a nice evening!

-Amy

[smkolins]

In light of challengs, are Baha'is any different...

Originally Posted by 9Harmony

What if, God consistently utilizes the same tools from age to age, but yet humanity repeatedly fails to learn the lessons of the ast and continually expects the next messenger to literally fulfill all of the prophecies with exuberance and fanfare? Our ancestors throughout history expected and we continue to expect that we will all recognize Him when He comes.

" "As to the meaning of the quotation, 'My fears are for Him Who will be sent down unto you after Me,' this refers to the Manifestation who is to come after a thousand or more years, who like all previous Messengers of God will be subjected to persecutions, but will eventually triumph over them. For men of ill-will have been and will always continue to be in this world, unless mankind reaches a state of complete and absolute perfection--a condition which is not only improbable but actually impossible to attain. The fundamental difference, however, between this Dispensation and all previous ones is this, that in this Revelation the possibility of permanent schism between the followers of the Prophet has been prevented through the direct and explicit instructions providing for the necessary instruments designed to maintain the organic unity of the body of the Faithful."Half way down the page...

""I am not apprehensive for My own self," Baha'u'llah still more explicitly declares, "My fears are for Him Who will be sent down unto you after Me--Him Who will be invested with great sovereignty and mighty dominion." And again He writes in the Suratu'l-Haykal: "By those words which I have revealed, Myself is not intended, but rather He Who will come after Me. To it is witness God, the All-Knowing." "Deal not with Him," He adds, "as ye have dealt with Me.""just over half way down

[lunamoth]

Interesting thread, Amy.

Originally Posted by 9Harmony

What if, God consistently utilizes the same tools from age to age, but yet humanity repeatedly fails to learn the lessons of the past and continually expects the next messenger to literally fulfill all of the prophecies with exuberance and fanfare? Our ancestors throughout history expected and we continue to expect that we will all recognize Him when He comes. We literally expect Jesus to return on clouds from the sky. Why would we expect that?

That we remain a stiff-necked people? Sure we do. And I agree that literalism takes the heart and many levels of meaning out of scripture.

Could it be because the scriptures always describe such an event in gloriously descriptive language? But history tells us that the way of God is not a way of literal earthly fanfare, but a spiritual one, the power and glory described in the scriptures has never been about the literal description of earthly events, but rather of heavenly ones. Why would God do it any differently the next time. While we continually look to the sky for His descent, we may miss what is going on right under our noses.

Quite right.

20Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within[b] you." (Luke 17)

The history of each religion teaches us that the expected unfoldment of prophecy, by those whose job it was to know, was in fact an illusion created by fallible human beings attempting to decipher the word of God through intellectual/literal means.

Not sure what you mean here. What was an illusion created by fallible humans.?

Because of a mis-perception based on their attachment to a manmade illusion, they were incapable of recognizing the truth standing right before their eyes. The first followers of each religion were not the learned men of the age, time after time, the meek and humble were the ones who recognized the spiritual implications of these prophecies, and Jesus reiterated that this will be the case again.

Well, the first followers of Abraham were his family, I believe. Not sure about all the other religions of the world. Certainly the disciples and early followers of Jesus were the meek and downtrodden.

3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Matt 5)

God does indeed work in mysterious ways. Part of the mystery is that He's consistent, but yet we continue to make the same mistakes of the past and fail to recognize or acknowledge that wonderfully simple fact.

This is quite true, although I think that individuals and societies, including organized religions, can learn from their mistakes. I also believe that through our faith we can be transformed.

However, why do you think that the Baha'i Faith is exempt from this? It seems to me that the Baha'i Faith is following pretty much the same pattern as early Christianity as it seeks to create orthodoxy, emphasises legalism over relationship with God and each other, and ejects all who do not hold to a very tight set of dogmatic beliefs.

The lesson: No one should be too attached to what we think we know, our perceptions can be clouded by any number of things, how can we be sure our perceptions are accurate? We should all be humble and open to receive guidance from above in our quest for truth. Our thirst for truth will compel us ever forward, beseeching God for guidance and assistance, He will answer us, if our quest is of pure intent. 'seek and ye shall find'.

Totally agree.

We should never accept what someone tells us as truth.

Well, I guess you mean we should never blindly accept what someone tell us as truth.

In this day, the majority of the world is literate, so we can read scriptures from their source ourselves, and determine through our own God-given faculties truth from falsehood. We do not need to rely on others to interpret scripture for us anymore. We are encouraged to look into everything with a searching eye. God is showing tremendous faith in us. He recognizes our spiritual maturity, even if we don't.

Yes, we can read the scriptures for ourselves and we most certainly should do this. However, I'm not sure that we all have time or inclination to also read all the relevant scholarship on Biblical authorship, history, context, etc. Really, that's a life's work and a worthy one. However, it seems that on the one hand you are agreeing that scripture such as the Bible is authored directly by God and so is sufficient unto itself for recognizing the signs of the Kingdom, yet on the other hand you seem to say that we can't read it literally because of the metaphorical language. Your obvious answer to this is to accept the interpretation Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l Baha present, yet you must admit that other interpretations are just as possible, theoretically. Are you open to those other possibilities?

Also, the canon of the Bible was put together by those same early human Christians you say we can't fully trust. Or, could we trust them only up to a point?

How many of our religious/spiritual perceptions are based on what others have told us throughout our lives? Isn't it time we grow up? It's our own choice whether or not to undertake responsibility for our own spiritual growth and well-being.

OK, I've now seen this type of statement several times by Baha'is across the fora. Do you see that it is quite condescending?

I believe that ...we will begin to recognize the similiarities throughout religious history and see how they compliment each other perfectly. Everyday we witness the interconnectedness of all aspects of life. Weaving a glorious tapestry of His grand design. God is One. We are all His children.

Hey, we agree again!

When the call is raised...will we be open to the accepting something other than that which we expect?

Right back at ya!

peace,
lunamoth

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by arthra

Maybe there's a sensitivity here Brian that should be discussed somewhere?

It's more a concern that this thread may serve only as a promotional platform for Baha'i theology, which would obviously need determining.

Originally Posted by arthra

I think Harmony is simply exploring the general human condition and isn't promoting Baha'i Faith above any thing else.

Her statement:

"How many of our religious/spiritual perceptions are based on what others have told us throughout our lives? Isn't it time we grow up? It's our own choice whether or not to undertake responsibility for our own spiritual growth and well-being.

I believe that if we can do that, we will begin to recognize the similiarities throughout religious history and see how they compliment each other perfectly."

is really quite generally applicable... Don't you think?

- Art

Verse one may well be taken as a neutral statement - but in conjunction with the second statement seems very much in line with Baha'i philosophy, and therefore raises concerns as to the motivation for the thread - a genuine exploration of the commonalities of faith, or a discussion to bring people around to looking further at Baha'i. So I asked difficult questions.

Originally Posted by 9Harmony

Well, actually, I've already gone through this process in arriving where i am. I had to let go of many preconceived ideas that i had. But of course it is an ongoing lifelong process of learning and by no means is mine complete.

Many people go through this experience across religious divides - sometimes wildly different. It's given myself something of an impression of different faiths fulfilling a Divine purpose, because what is more important in life is our actions, not beliefs.

Originally Posted by 9Harmony

Believing that Baha'u'llah was who He said He was, (imho) no, i cannot state that Baha'u'llah got things wrong. I believe that He taught what was appropriate for this age. But that is not to say that when the next messenger comes, He/She will not change anything that Baha'u'llah taught, He/She most likely will. Just as I would never say that Jesus or Buddha or Mohammed got anything wrong, i do not believe they did, i believe some of their followers got things wrong, but the true teachings of each of the prophets, was what was necessary to convey the appropriate lessons for their age and society.

That is a good answer - as a curious point, though, I seem to recall earlier discussions about the next messenger arriving in about two to three thousand years - so would that mean that Baha'i would have to be regarded as an inerrant religion following inerrant scriptures until that point? At what point in that process would fallability be accepted? OR is it the case that the second messenger simply adds to Baha'u'llah's original message, rather than reform it?

Originally Posted by 9Harmony

Have a great evening!

-Amy

Yourself, too, Amy.

[arthra]

Brian,

I really think you basically may have some apprehensions here and sensitivities as Administrator of these boards that need to be addressed... At least I would be willing to respond to them some place... but I think Harmony's initial post was clearly in general terms and reflective... It kind of "puts a damper" on someone when they may be just expressing their thoughts to have the Administrator indicate:

"...therefore raises concerns as to the motivation for the thread - a genuine exploration of the commonalities of faith, or a discussion to bring people around to looking further at Baha'i. So I asked difficult questions."

Brian wrote:

That is a good answer - as a curious point, though, I seem to recall earlier discussions about the next messenger arriving in about two to three thousand years - so would that mean that Baha'i would have to be regarded as an inerrant religion following inerrant scriptures until that point?

Comment:

A good place to start is from our view to understand the concept of revelation... Our view is that revelation of Qur'an was also a direct inspiration.

Baha'u'llah revealed the next Manifestation would occur in no less than a thousand years.

Brian:

At what point in that process would fallability be accepted? OR is it the case that the second messenger simply adds to Baha'u'llah's original message, rather than reform it?

Comment:

In our Faith the Central Figures are accepted as infallible in terms of spiritual areas with the ordinances of the Bab being abrogated by Baha'u'llah.

In the same way the next Messenger would have salient issues to address for the age in which He/She appears...

In re. "reform" the Universal House of Justice which is elective can legislate and adapt what it has previously enacted.

- Art

[I, Brian]

Thank you for the answers - much appreciated.

As for general sensitivities - the comparative board is for making comparisons, and is usually the place to pose more critical questions between Faiths.

[9Harmony]

Hi lunamoth,

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Not sure what you mean here. What was an illusion created by fallible humans.?

I guess what I'm saying is that the expectations surrounding the appearance of Christ the first time, were wrong. The expectations that the learned of the age told their followers would occur with his arrival, is not at all how it actually played out. perhaps illusion is not the right word to use, but rather, a misconception based on literal interpretation by those we trusted to know the difference.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

However, why do you think that the Baha'i Faith is exempt from this?

Over the longterm it very well may succumb to some of these same issues. I really did not start this thread with the intent of discussing any Baha'i issues, it was simply an attempt to ask people to think outside the box. It is your right to see the Faith how you see it, but what you describe is not at all my experience.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Yes, we can read the scriptures for ourselves and we most certainly should do this. However, I'm not sure that we all have time or inclination to also read all the relevant scholarship on Biblical authorship, history, context, etc. Really, that's a life's work and a worthy one. However, it seems that on the one hand you are agreeing that scripture such as the Bible is authored directly by God and so is sufficient unto itself for recognizing the signs of the Kingdom, yet on the other hand you seem to say that we can't read it literally because of the metaphorical language. Your obvious answer to this is to accept the interpretation Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l Baha present, yet you must admit that other interpretations are just as possible, theoretically. Are you open to those other possibilities?

I understand that time is indeed a factor in embarking on this journey.
The bible tells us that the books will be sealed until the time of the end. Which to me means that no matter how many theologians try to decifer the true meanings, they will be unable to, until such time as Christ returns to unseal them.

I am open to any possibilities that make sense of the whole. I have not found anything else that comes close, but yes, if something comes along that makes more sense that what i've already found, of course i will consider it.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Also, the canon of the Bible was put together by those same early human Christians you say we can't fully trust. Or, could we trust them only up to a point?

I never said we couldn't trust the early Christians. The difference i think is that Christ was very vague in how his teachings should be carried forward. Since it was left to humans to carry forward without specific guidance it was bound to encounter the difficulties that eventually led to the divisions. Though the early Christians had pure intentions, ego's eventually seeped in and created the divisions we see today. The Baha'i Faith is different in that regard as we were given a step by step blueprint to carry forward with. With the goal of preventing the divisions that have plagued earlier religions.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

OK, I've now seen this type of statement several times by Baha'is across the fora. Do you see that it is quite condescending?

I'm very sorry luna, i will delete the line about 'growing up'. I did not intend to be condescending but i see how it could be construed that way. It's just that even as a young child i realized how many religions exist and even then i wondered with so many, how could we possibly ever know which one is right, since they all make that claim. What if i was born into a family that followed a false religion. So i think i began on my quest even then, to seek truth wherever it may be found. I just wonder how many never question the beliefs they were raised with.

I'm very sorry if i offended you in any way. Please accept my humble apologies.

Have a great day!

Loving Greetings, Amy

[9Harmony]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

It's more a concern that this thread may serve only as a promotional platform for Baha'i theology, which would obviously need determining.

Hi Brian,

I have mentioned several times that i only posted it as an attempt to ask people to think outside the box. I did not intend to bring Baha'i into this discussion at all. <sigh> that apparently didn't happen.

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Verse one may well be taken as a neutral statement - but in conjunction with the second statement seems very much in line with Baha'i philosophy, and therefore raises concerns as to the motivation for the thread - a genuine exploration of the commonalities of faith, or a discussion to bring people around to looking further at Baha'i. So I asked difficult questions.

I must say that this has been very educational for me. As for some of my statements being inline with Baha'i philosophy...guilty as charged. Baha'i is a part of who i am, and as such what i say will have statements which are in this vein. My intent is not to get people to look at the Baha'i Faith, simply to open them to broadening their vision of their own faith. Perhaps look at their own faith through a new perspective.

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Many people go through this experience across religious divides - sometimes wildly different. It's given myself something of an impression of different faiths fulfilling a Divine purpose, because what is more important in life is our actions, not beliefs.

Well said!


Please forgive me if I've given the impression of being insincere in posting this thread.

Could i ask you a favor, i told lunamoth that i would delete the line in my initial post about 'growing up'. but when i went to do so, the edit feature is no longer available. Thank you!

Have a great day!

-Amy