Expectations?

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by 9Harmony

Hi lunamoth,
I guess what I'm saying is that the expectations surrounding the appearance of Christ the first time, were wrong. The expectations that the learned of the age told their followers would occur with his arrival, is not at all how it actually played out. perhaps illusion is not the right word to use, but rather, a misconception based on literal interpretation by those we trusted to know the difference.

So, it seems to me that you are saying we can't use the prophecies of scripture at all, before the fact, to recognize the Messiah or the Return of Christ. Actually, I think there is at least one true test given in scripture: by their fruits you shall know them. I agree that the strictly literal interpretations cloud the Kingdom of God.

Over the longterm it very well may succumb to some of these same issues. I really did not start this thread with the intent of discussing any Baha'i issues, it was simply an attempt to ask people to think outside the box. It is your right to see the Faith how you see it, but what you describe is not at all my experience.

Well, this is the comparative thread, you are clearly a Baha'i according to your title , and so I think it's reasonable to assume that you are saying that the Baha'i Faith has somehow "gotten out of the box." Otherwise all we are talking about here are rather vague platitudes.

I'm not talking about my experience of the Faith in this case (at other times I might! ) In fact, the upside of my experience of the Baha'i Faith is that it is full of many rather lovely, kind people all doing the best they can to serve God.

As for the longterm, well, yes, it is a matter of faith for Baha'is to believe that the Covenant is still intact despite the lack of a Guardian. Just as it is a matter of faith for Christians to believe that the Church has been guided for two millenia by the Holy Spirit.

I understand that time is indeed a factor in embarking on this journey.
The bible tells us that the books will be sealed until the time of the end. Which to me means that no matter how many theologians try to decifer the true meanings, they will be unable to, until such time as Christ returns to unseal them.

As above, so we won't know until after it has happened. So, how does one recognize the Manifestation of God apart from scripture? Do you have some objective, rational criteria, or is it just something that resonates with your soul? And, if it is somethat that just resonates with your soul, the answer to prayer, still how do you know you are right and everyone else is wrong? Or, is it OK for it to just be right for you?

I am open to any possibilities that make sense of the whole. I have not found anything else that comes close, but yes, if something comes along that makes more sense that what i've already found, of course i will consider it.

Same vow I made to myself when I declared.

I never said we couldn't trust the early Christians. The difference i think is that Christ was very vague in how his teachings should be carried forward. Since it was left to humans to carry forward without specific guidance it was bound to encounter the difficulties that eventually led to the divisions. Though the early Christians had pure intentions, ego's eventually seeped in and created the divisions we see today. The Baha'i Faith is different in that regard as we were given a step by step blueprint to carry forward with. With the goal of preventing the divisions that have plagued earlier religions.

Well, I disagree that Christ was vague in His teachings, and He guaranteed us the Holy Spirit to guide us forward. He elegantly and concisely summed up the true meaning of the law in first, the Sermon on the Mount and second, His ultimate and all-encompassing command: Love one another as I love you.

I'm very sorry luna, i will delete the line about 'growing up'. I did not intend to be condescending but i see how it could be construed that way. It's just that even as a young child i realized how many religions exist and even then i wondered with so many, how could we possibly ever know which one is right, since they all make that claim. What if i was born into a family that followed a false religion. So i think i began on my quest even then, to seek truth wherever it may be found. I just wonder how many never question the beliefs they were raised with.

I'm very sorry if i offended you in any way. Please accept my humble apologies.

Again, you have not offended me personally. But, whether you realize it or not, you are stating your case as from the Absolute. Yes, it is a good and necessary thing, part of our spiritual strengthening, to examine our beliefs in humility (as much as we can muster!). May we all be seekers of Truth. The problems begin when we think we have an absolute hold on it, and others are somehow missing the boat.

Have a great day!

Loving Greetings, Amy

You too!

peace,
lunamoth

[9Harmony]

Hi lunamoth,

Originally Posted by lunamoth

So, it seems to me that you are saying we can't use the prophecies of scripture at all, before the fact, to recognize the Messiah or the Return of Christ. Actually, I think there is at least one true test given in scripture: by their fruits you shall know them. I agree that the strictly literal interpretations cloud the Kingdom of God.

I just mean we should be somewhat humble in our approach. I agree that Jesus gave us some clear guidance on how to tell truth from falsehood.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

As above, so we won't know until after it has happened. So, how does one recognize the Manifestation of God apart from scripture? Do you have some objective, rational criteria, or is it just something that resonates with your soul? And, if it is somethat that just resonates with your soul, the answer to prayer, still how do you know you are right and everyone else is wrong? Or, is it OK for it to just be right for you?

it's not necessarily true that noone will know until after. I think it depends partly on the purity of heart of the seeker.

as for what criteria i personally utilize...it's a combination of things. I do study scripture, and if one verse seems to say one thing and another verse seems to contradict the first. I look at both and tell myself, the bible doesn't lie, so there must be truth in both, how can these verses both be true. And then when I arrive at a point where i can actually recognize truth in both it is usually accompanied by a resonation factor, a veil lifts off. As to how do i know if I'm right? I don't, but I know it feels right for me at this moment in time. And of course it's ok if it's just right for me and noone else. I am the only Baha'i in my county and the only Baha'i in my family (other than my daughters), so it has to be okay, I'm all I have.

My whole point in starting this thread was to encourage people to broaden their vision, to think for themselves, to not rely on what someone tells us 'that this is what this means'. I do not want to tell anyone what to think, but i do want to encourage people to read the scriptures of their own religion for themselves, study them, meditate on them, ask God to assist them.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Well, I disagree that Christ was vague in His teachings, and He guaranteed us the Holy Spirit to guide us forward. He elegantly and concisely summed up the true meaning of the law in first, the Sermon on the Mount and second, His ultimate and all-encompassing command: Love one another as I love you.

I also do not think that Christ was vague in all His teachings, the majority of them are very clear. But His guidance on exactly what to do after He was gone is rather vague imho.

And I agree the Golden Rule is probably the most fundamental teaching of all the the great Prophets. Apparently we really haven't figured that out yet, if we had it wouldn't need to be reiterated in every age. If people could abide by that one rule, the world would be a very different place right now.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Again, you have not offended me personally. But, whether you realize it or not, you are stating your case as from the Absolute. Yes, it is a good and necessary thing, part of our spiritual strengthening, to examine our beliefs in humility (as much as we can muster!). May we all be seekers of Truth. The problems begin when we think we have an absolute hold on it, and others are somehow missing the boat.

I sincerely apologize if that is how i am coming across.

As I've mentioned several times, I did not intend on bringing the Baha'i Faith into this discussion at all. The only reason it is here now is due to others asking pointed questions and I am simply doing my best to answer them. I'm not quite sure how it could be done differently other than to ignore or avoid these questions, which is not something i feel comfortable with. I definitely do not claim to have an absolute grasp of anything, I am simply striving through sharing to gain a better understanding of my own spiritual nature just as you are.

I'm really not sure what else to say at this point.

Have a nice night!

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by 9Harmony

My whole point in starting this thread was to encourage people to broaden their vision, to think for themselves, to not rely on what someone tells us 'that this is what this means'. I do not want to tell anyone what to think, but i do want to encourage people to read the scriptures of their own religion for themselves, study them, meditate on them, ask God to assist them.

Hi Amy,

OK, I'm sorry if you feel I misunderstood your intentions here. My reply is that yes, it is a very good thing for one to think for themself and apply this same discipline of study, meditation and prayer toward one's own scripture. I think it is very good thing to not blindly follow what someone else tells you.

So I guess we agree!

peace,
lunamoth

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Thank you for the answers - much appreciated.

As for general sensitivities - the comparative board is for making comparisons, and is usually the place to pose more critical questions between Faiths.

As a newcomer and a Baha`i I would point out that the Baha`i Faith has a rather unique outlook on "critical questions between Faiths". That being:
"The Religions agree. Men dispute."

From that viewpoint none of the Messengers got anything wrong. When men claim mistakes they are usually imagining them or misanalyzing because of misunderstanding.

If there is indeed a single Creator, and He has manifested Himself to men in different places and times, surely the differences are a reflection of making the message meaningful to the hearer,rather than constituting different truths.

Regards,

Scott

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

the Baha`i Faith has a rather unique outlook on "critical questions between Faiths". That being:
"The Religions agree. Men dispute."

Indeed - but it remains a point that it is men who determine this, not the religions.

While it is laudable that anybody could be encouraged to think outside of their own precepts, it remains much easier to expect other people to move beyond their own, than ourselves.

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

As a newcomer and a Baha`i I would point out that the Baha`i Faith has a rather unique outlook on "critical questions between Faiths". That being:
"The Religions agree. Men dispute."

From that viewpoint none of the Messengers got anything wrong. When men claim mistakes they are usually imagining them or misanalyzing because of misunderstanding.

If there is indeed a single Creator, and He has manifested Himself to men in different places and times, surely the differences are a reflection of making the message meaningful to the hearer,rather than constituting different truths.

Regards,

Scott

Welcome to the CR Forums Scott! I'm sure Brian also welcomes you.

- Art

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by arthra

Welcome to the CR Forums Scott! I'm sure Brian also welcomes you.

- Art

Indeed, welcome Popeyesays.

Actually, when I saw your "tension" post on the Baha'i board I thought you may be another troll looking to kick up some dust here. Your other replies thankfully calmed the initial concern.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all...


so... Amy... what box are you thinking outside of?

metta,

~v

[9Harmony]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Namaste all...


so... Amy... what box are you thinking outside of?

metta,

~v

Namaste Vajradhara,

i used to confine my thoughts inside the Christian/Catholic religion. the One Way mentality, now the universe is the limit. God is far greater than anything i can ascribe to Him/Her.

God doeth whatsoever He willeth.

Have a wonderful weekend!