Evolution question.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

Appears to be a thread where we can see how far we haven't evolved.

Much like attacking Iraq in response to 9/11, we don't realize that it doesn't take much to end it...just takes one to say, no, I won't respond in kind.

Sure the other may continue the barrage, but how could that be my problem?

We cannot determine the events that lead upto any rant and whether it is justified or not. But we are in complete control of our response and responsible for it...or at least should be.

Seek first to understand, then to be understood.

Let's choose to evolve.

What does this have to do with evolution?

[Tao_Equus]

*standing and applauding Wil*

Very good Wil, thank you so much as things are starting to get a little out of hand.

And I am standing by you to say that I admire you for stating what I am feeling, as you have found the words for me! Good job Wil!

God Bless,
Ian

What can I say? I appreciate Wil's sentiments too? Well I do, but I have no Christian notion of turning the other cheek. And whilst it may seem I'm more "eye for eye" that is not the whole truth either. I would rather not descend into some vitriolic tennis match but I cannot sit idly by and let one persons quest to misrepresent me turn into such a personalised attack on me. That someone cannot even, by his own statement, be bothered to read through a thread then conclude that I am a fascist from the emotional insecurities of someone who desires to misquote me is more than I am willing to accept here. I am willing to be judged here by anyone, on what I do say, but NOT on what others try to conclude "I might of said" based on their own weak logic requiring the diversion of slur.

In all my intercourse with people here over 5 years I have never yet encountered this situation. I have never felt so estranged from this site. The Juantoo whom I have worked hard with on previous threads to reach some mutual understanding has gone. In his stead an edifice of inflexibility, trivial nitpicking and indignation that point to me of some personal struggle turned on me. Well I hope it has been of some use to you. If it helps you resolve it in a way that makes people happy then it was worth it. But I hope you have dignity and vision to see what you have done. And realise that though my respect for you is undiminished, my trust in you is sorely wounded.

This thread is the first time in all my time here that I have actually felt assaulted. Yet so soon it spread through the ranks of the righteous. If ever I required proof of why religious belief is so volatile and untrustworthy I find it here. Thank you for demonstrating my point.

The pole on the old limbo stick of tolerance has been considerably lowered by this thread. On other threads my all out effort to produce honest dialogue on Islam seems to be doing the same thing. Everywhere people are determined to reinterpret my motives as being malign. As though I am the one filled with hate. As though my modest effort at presenting an alternative to the endless apologists is symptomatic of only one possibility. Well I object to that. You are not required to hate to believe in social evolution. You are not required to adopt dogmas of eugenics and supremacy to believe that man has, will and should move in a forward direction.

There is one reason and one reason alone that I am so passionate in my views. That reason is that I am blessed with Children. I want to see a better world for them. I want to be part of the movement that is not fixated with Armageddon and the afterlife but that strives to enhance our life here on Earth. One that strives to give our children's children a world as complex and diverse and as beautiful as the one we know today. That I see religions as way too open to individual self-deceit and even greater institutionalised deceit is a valid point of view. That I feel mankind should strive for truths that transcend religious importance, and our historical addiction to them by letting our children be children and not mind-wiping them from the start.

Where do you think I found such a view? Starbucks? McDonalds? Walmart?? No. Like another long time poster here that recently PM'd me said "I don't see things quite the same way as before. My perspective has changed significantly in the last two years.". Like him I arrived here with a head full of very different thoughts to those I attempt to articulate now. In fact I arrived here trying to prove to myself that God was something like Gaia theory's soul. But as I got more involved here I read the hocus pocus, mumbo jumbo superfluities that were so blatantly the contrivances of men peddled as divinely revealed truths. (whether vacuously through a dilute spirituality or hammered into stark relief in fundamentalist obsidian). I did not come here looking to reject God, more I came here and I was forced to. I cannot be sure there is no God, and I have never written off that remote possibility, but I am absolutely sure there is no kind of God that gives one hoot about what we think about. And I got that certitude here at CR. And from some of the posts I have read several of the theists here should be praying 9 times a day that I am right.

I do not want it thought that I feel completely isolated here. Many have chimed in with their own inspirational and enlightening posts that not only made me think but forced me to challenge my perceptions. To those and those that are more often in opposition to me, I owe thanks and I see that thanks as being best delivered as continuing to be true to myself and to you. I am not backing down on my current direction. I will continue to put forward my ideas to this "gathering hut of village elders" from across the globe because I believe I genuinely strive for the bigger truths. I am not selfish, now and always my concern is mankind as a whole and how we face the challenges of the future. Some may think they will find it with their heads stuck in some medieval dogma but I just cannot see that happening. We live in a new age where we have seen every conceivable doctrine enacted and corrupted. What we need is a completely new paradigm built on the honest reappraisal of our history. We need a ruthless spring clean to make room for the fact that we are now truly a global village that cannot prosper if we are all fighting over irrelevancies. Leaving our children alone would be the quickest route to this. Letting our children play is key to this. How much do we love life? How much do we love our children?


tao

[Only Special To God]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

What can I say? I appreciate Wil's sentiments too? Well I do, but I have no Christian notion of turning the other cheek. And whilst it may seem I'm more "eye for eye" that is not the whole truth either. I would rather not descend into some vitriolic tennis match but I cannot sit idly by and let one persons quest to misrepresent me turn into such a personalised attack on me. That someone cannot even, by his own statement, be bothered to read through a thread then conclude that I am a fascist from the emotional insecurities of someone who desires to misquote me is more than I am willing to accept here. I am willing to be judged here by anyone, on what I do say, but NOT on what others try to conclude "I might of said" based on their own weak logic requiring the diversion of slur.

In all my intercourse with people here over 5 years I have never yet encountered this situation. I have never felt so estranged from this site. The Juantoo whom I have worked hard with on previous threads to reach some mutual understanding has gone. In his stead an edifice of inflexibility, trivial nitpicking and indignation that point to me of some personal struggle turned on me. Well I hope it has been of some use to you. If it helps you resolve it in a way that makes people happy then it was worth it. But I hope you have dignity and vision to see what you have done. And realise that though my respect for you is undiminished, my trust in you is sorely wounded.

This thread is the first time in all my time here that I have actually felt assaulted. Yet so soon it spread through the ranks of the righteous. If ever I required proof of why religious belief is so volatile and untrustworthy I find it here. Thank you for demonstrating my point.

The pole on the old limbo stick of tolerance has been considerably lowered by this thread. On other threads my all out effort to produce honest dialogue on Islam seems to be doing the same thing. Everywhere people are determined to reinterpret my motives as being malign. As though I am the one filled with hate. As though my modest effort at presenting an alternative to the endless apologists is symptomatic of only one possibility. Well I object to that. You are not required to hate to believe in social evolution. You are not required to adopt dogmas of eugenics and supremacy to believe that man has, will and should move in a forward direction.

There is one reason and one reason alone that I am so passionate in my views. That reason is that I am blessed with Children. I want to see a better world for them. I want to be part of the movement that is not fixated with Armageddon and the afterlife but that strives to enhance our life here on Earth. One that strives to give our children's children a world as complex and diverse and as beautiful as the one we know today. That I see religions as way too open to individual self-deceit and even greater institutionalised deceit is a valid point of view. That I feel mankind should strive for truths that transcend religious importance, and our historical addiction to them by letting our children be children and not mind-wiping them from the start.

Where do you think I found such a view? Starbucks? McDonalds? Walmart?? No. Like another long time poster here that recently PM'd me said "I don't see things quite the same way as before. My perspective has changed significantly in the last two years.". Like him I arrived here with a head full of very different thoughts to those I attempt to articulate now. In fact I arrived here trying to prove to myself that God was something like Gaia theory's soul. But as I got more involved here I read the hocus pocus, mumbo jumbo superfluities that were so blatantly the contrivances of men peddled as divinely revealed truths. (whether vacuously through a dilute spirituality or hammered into stark relief in fundamentalist obsidian). I did not come here looking to reject God, more I came here and I was forced to. I cannot be sure there is no God, and I have never written off that remote possibility, but I am absolutely sure there is no kind of God that gives one hoot about what we think about. And I got that certitude here at CR. And from some of the posts I have read several of the theists here should be praying 9 times a day that I am right.

I do not want it thought that I feel completely isolated here. Many have chimed in with their own inspirational and enlightening posts that not only made me think but forced me to challenge my perceptions. To those and those that are more often in opposition to me, I owe thanks and I see that thanks as being best delivered as continuing to be true to myself and to you. I am not backing down on my current direction. I will continue to put forward my ideas to this "gathering hut of village elders" from across the globe because I believe I genuinely strive for the bigger truths. I am not selfish, now and always my concern is mankind as a whole and how we face the challenges of the future. Some may think they will find it with their heads stuck in some medieval dogma but I just cannot see that happening. We live in a new age where we have seen every conceivable doctrine enacted and corrupted. What we need is a completely new paradigm built on the honest reappraisal of our history. We need a ruthless spring clean to make room for the fact that we are now truly a global village that cannot prosper if we are all fighting over irrelevancies. Leaving our children alone would be the quickest route to this. Letting our children play is key to this. How much do we love life? How much do we love our children?


tao

Hello Tao,

The only reason that I wrote that about applauding Wil, is because of the tone of the words that were being used. It was heated and the dialogs were getting angrier and angrier. This is a forum, yes? I do know and understand that this is were we come to discuss and debate. Dude! This was way past debate, if the two of you were in the same room, someone would have called the police as there would have been a fist fight. Is that right?

We are talking about our beliefs, what we feel in our hearts, what is in our minds, and what knowledge that we have that we can share with other who do not know. I am not attacking anyone. I am talking to you as I want to understand. But, you have to also remember that if you are constantly dismissing someones culture, beliefs and feelings, then it does come back around. Believe me, I have seen it, and if I did not see then I heard about it.

I do not know what religion you believe in. Does it really matter? I feel that you are trying to find God, but you are trying too hard. To me you are the type of person who believes with his mind, but not his heart and you know it.
So, you question anything and everything, because you want to believe, but you can't because your mind is set, your eyes are waiting to see something, anything that will help you to believe.

Tao, with your mind being set in the mode that it is your heart will not open to let God in. There is not set criteria to make God come into your heart. That is all up to you Tao, you are the one who is holding the key to the lock on your heart, and you are the only one who can unlock it.

In regards to children. I like you think that children should be children, but I do believe in them attending Church with their family. Church is a special place, it is where people who gather (like us in this forum) together to pray, sing, laugh, listen, cry, help each other and discuss life. Children should be subjected to that. I do understand that there are other various degrees of what parents subject their children to in the name of God is so horrible, but that is another topic for another day.

I am sorry that you are angry......I rooted for Wil about speaking up about how heated the conversation was. It was even upsetting me, and I am reading it!

God Bless you Tao, I will put you in my prayers asking God to help you to find a way to let him into your heart.

Ian

[Penguin]

I have learnt a lot starting this thread. Very interesting indeed

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Besides, most kids are gonna figure it out anyway, eventually. Haven't we? Most people just don't give a $hit about any of this. Church is a social club to chase next saturday night's date, religion is a myth they stop believing in like Santa Claus, the easter bunny and the tooth fairy. But its all fun to lead the kids on while they're still gullible. I'm being a little sarcastic here...


.

If you dont mind I backtrack a bit to say something on the above.

If I get this right you are saying church is only a social club for non-believers and questioners that none the less will brainwash their "gullible" kids. Just how sarcastic were you being?

I watched a program the other night on some small town that was once a mining town in the heart or Yorkshire. The pits closed relatively recently, by grace of Thatcher's drive to smash the Unions. But within these communities survive strong social clubs that include every demographic of the community. There are religious people there but the clubs are beacons of secular inclusion that are independent of religion.

My point is that if you are trying to say that you only want church to exist because you want a social club where you can find Saturday nights date in peace while the children are quietly mind-wiped in the backroom then what a sorry self-serving excuse for a religion you have. And all the bad points, the intolerance, war, all the refugees and victims that the religions daily add to their numbers are all justified to yourself because you want a social life!! But hey, throw $10 on the church plate for the hungry poor and your conscience is clear.

It is possible to have a community outside of religious doctrine. It is not a requirement to build a Church hall, a community hall serves better. It serves everyone.


OSTG,

I am sorry that you are angry......I rooted for Wil about speaking up about how heated the conversation was. It was even upsetting me, and I am reading it!

God Bless you Tao, I will put you in my prayers asking God to help you to find a way to let him into your heart.

Sometimes we have a right to be angry. Sometimes anger is the only honest response. it is what you do with that anger that really matters.

Whilst I appreciate and thank you for your sentiments you are reading my stage on life's journey very wrong. Some of us have their heads firmly buried in the past. Some live only for the present. And some have their thoughts dwelling in the future. I do not care about finding or rejecting God. I care about our practical realities as we face an increasingly uncertain future. I want to see mankind throw off the yoke of irrational superstition that ties him into a cyclic repetition of hatred. The Abrahamic religions are by historical analysis central to the politics of greed throughout their range. If we continue to make them central to the politics of the future then that cycle will continue. I think the modern human should demand more of her/himself than the elastoplast of these patriarchal and interfering Gods that patently do not exist. We should wake up to the fact that we and we alone are the masters of our destiny.


tao

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Ah, but I did.

No, Q, your effort is to suggest that we may simply change shoes and be equally correct, or that the other viewpoint is equally accurate. Neither of these is the case.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

yes, if only there was non-astral evidence of this!

Last time I checked, the Great Pyramid, the Aztec and Mayan Pyramids, Chichen Itza, Stonehenge, Machhu Pichhu (sp?), and dozens of other observatories ... weren't limited to the astral plane. Gee, I thought they went ahead and concretized (sic) those Temples. Did my eyes deceive me?

Or was there no booming voice to tell me what to believe. Looking for something written in STONE to help you along? Try the Egyptian Denderah Zodiac. Want to date all this stuff? Go for it.

Want to tell me we were monkeys swinging from trees 10,000 years ago? Sure man. 100,000 years ago? Okay, whatever. And those monkeys built precisely these pyramids, observatories and Temples more than 200,000 years ago ... if not 400,000 or even earlier in some cases.

I'm sorry you can't see what is right in front of you. I suggest you VISIT some of these locations, before writing them off as simply the fortunate handiwork of primitives. Before your holy scriptures were anyone's vaguest idea ... the PRECISION of the Egyptian pyramids was already a marvel of the OLD WORLD.

THINK, man, THINK. No one can deny you that. Nor will you deny me that right. Please redirect mind ray. I have no need for being told that your sublime wisdom is somehow superior to mine. I know that both proceed from the same Source. Either you know this too, or you are behind the game, behind the times, draggin' the line.

What does it take?

Poke fun, jest, seek to discredit ... ANYTHING when we do not agree. And you will DENY that these other cultures and religions existed tens of thousands of years ago? Then if not, or if you admit they existed even 4 or 5 thousands years BC, what have you to say to that? What have you to say of the alignment of the stars with the shafts in the Great Pyramid of Giza?

If you would bother to study the Precession of the Equinoxes, you would knot that it is scientific FACT that we are speaking of a cycle in excess of 25,000 years. Furthermore, you would know that it can only be three cycles ago, at the very earliest during which the aformentioned alignments can properly be possible -- though we have reason to believe it could be many cycles earlier.

I am not surprised. Just disappointed. Do some reading. Look past the conventions of orthodoxy. This earth is not the center of the universe. Nor is any, one religion. Soon, those who proclaim to the contrary will be no more than laughing stock. Many will simply lower their head, and sigh ... but it is probably always best to smile, regardless.

There are the holdouts, and there always will be. Won't there.

[bananabrain]

oh, deary me, here we go again, andrew, just when we were starting to get somewhere you have to insist that everything simply confirms that you were right all along, everyone's got a closed mind except you, the evidence is all there right in front of our eyes, it's all 10000000000000 years old and all the religions are dead and we just blindly follow stone tablets and equinoxes and cycles and lemurians and blah blah blah blether yada yada yaawwwwwwwnnnnnnnzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

oh, deary me, here we go again, andrew, just when we were starting to get somewhere you have to insist that everything simply confirms that you were right all along, everyone's got a closed mind except you, the evidence is all there right in front of our eyes, it's all 10000000000000 years old and all the religions are dead and we just blindly follow stone tablets and equinoxes and cycles and lemurians and blah blah blah blether yada yada yaawwwwwwwnnnnnnnzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

b'shalom

bananabrain

I am not in Andrews "camp" (not that I am calling you "camp" Andrew!), but BB given the archaeological evidence, do you not think that "technological rationalising and advanced" thinking has been around far longer than the average history lesson gives credit? And far longer than the Abrahamic tradition? I find it naive, given the evidence, to think our Victorian history lessons are truly representative.


tao

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I like passion. I think people write their best stuff when they are animated to passion. And sometimes their worst, which can be equally enlightening as many of my own post amply illustrate.

Be careful what you pray for...you might get it.

I have written chance comments in the past in other threads that have exploded in my face, to my complete amazement as to why? And there are other times I have challenged obnoxious comments by others and ended up in a tussle. So this is hardly a unique situation for me.

I suppose I could have left your comments go unchallenged, like I have so many times before. After awhile though, it gets old, being told I am an uneducated idiot who cannot reason for himself.

You promote wrong impressions about me, what then is wrong with me returning the favor? You misconstrue what I write, seeing what you want to see and ignoring the balance...and I am wrong to do the same for you? You claim I want to silence your opinion in an attempt to silence my opinion.

I could go back through our entire exchange and clarify where you have imposed your preferred perceptions instead of reading and comprehending what I actually wrote, but that gets old too.

Religion isn't your thing...I get it. No problem. I've never called you a name, belittled your character or thought any the less of you for it. I do have problems with you belittling my character directly or by association for my adherence to my religion.

BTW, demonstrating the faults inherent in evolutionary theory doesn't mean I am against or disbelieve in the theory, it means I am thoughtful enough to see there *are* limitations.

You wanted a passionate conversation...I dare say I think you got a bit more than you bargained for.

I'd still buy you a pint of your favorite brew and call you my friend.

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

oh, deary me ... {crapola}

I believe there is an `ignore' feature somewhere here at CR. I am off this very instant to locate it!

Since, however, for some ungodly reason (sic) bb seeems to have moderator status, I will need some kind of intervention to accomplish my goal. Can any one tell me how to IGNORE a member, save when that person is posting in moderator capacity?

I really would be most appreciative, and it would help immensely!

Thank you.

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

BB given the archaeological evidence, do you not think that "technological rationalising and advanced" thinking has been around far longer than the average history lesson gives credit? And far longer than the Abrahamic tradition? I find it naive, given the evidence, to think our Victorian history lessons are truly representative.

that's not what i'm saying. i have no problem with technological rationalisation or advanced thinking, nor do i think that the abrahamic traditions were the first to come up with everything, *but* it does not therefore follow that i find all this theosophical mumbo-jumbo remotely credible by those same standards. macchu picchu, the pyramids and stonehenge all exist, they're all very old, older than abraham i dare say, that's all fine. what they do *not* appear to be is evidence that the "real" story is to do with 100000000 year-old "astral" texts or anything else that the equally victorian madam blavatsky suggested.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

No, Q, your effort is to suggest that we may simply change shoes and be equally correct, or that the other viewpoint is equally accurate. Neither of these is the case....

Perception, is accurate, to the perceiver, Andrew. Afterall, we each live in our own little universe, besides living in this very big one.

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Perception, is accurate, to the perceiver, Andrew. Afterall, we each live in our own little universe, besides living in this very big one.

And in that bigger Universe, planets don't suddenly become humanly habitable in a few thousand years. Not unless they've already spent quite a few billion getting *almost ready* ...

My point is simply that creationism cannot simply be exchanged with teachings on evolution as somehow, even by a stretch, just one other equally viable perspective on things. For you, or anyone, to suggest otherwise, is like saying, "Oh, but I think the sun is really a giant ball of burning marmalade, the moon is made of cheese, and other planets consist of various blends of food from the dinner table."

You may have a right to express your viewpoints, and if you wish, you can post all sorts of science fiction or fantasy. You can insist that the world is flat, but most of us will patiently ask you if you're serious, and if you reply in the affirmative then -- will it be a big surprise if all else you say is taken with a grain of salt?

The reason it is so frustrating to see the argument over a false dichotomy concerning Intelligent Design and Evolution ... is that, for many of us, it is precisely by Intelligent Design thatn Evolution becomes possible in the first place! Yet some of us don't subscribe to the notion of anthropomorphic deities, or to the same notions of soteriology as you do.

A thread on different approaches to human salvation would be different ... because it is entirely rational, reasonable, sensible to accept that via reincarnation, and progressive Spiritual evolution, all souls - eventually & inevitably -- attain their Freedom (Enlightenment, Salvation). For many a Christian, another method entirely -- via one, lone human incarnation, and concerning a necessary relationship to Jesus Christ -- might be advanced as a means of Salvation. The Christian might not accept the other teaching as accurate, just as I do not believe what the Christian does. But this kind of discussion is NOT the same as: "Oh, I think God made the Earth in six, literal days" vs. "No, clearly there is no God, this is all just random coincidence, and btw it took billions of years to JUST HAPPEN."

The error many people make is in not recognizing Creationism for the FLUFF that it is ... to begin with. It is not the faith, or the choice of religious PRACTICE which is being challenged, or which is the mistake. It is the absurd notions which Creationists subscribe to, in lieu of the scientific understanding which is available to human reason ... and whose opposite, or alternative, is simply - ignorance. {Ignorance, meant here as a descriptive term, not a pejorative one.}

For the Creationist to look at the fact, and to recognize and accept that, oh gee, it really did take billions of years for us to evolve to our present conditions ... does not mean that s/he must reject God in the least. It just means that s/he must be willing to THINK about what s/he reads in the Bible ... and as we all know well and good, this is something that a great many people just cannot be troubled to do.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

do you not think that "technological rationalising and advanced" thinking has been around far longer than the average history lesson gives credit?

I don't know what the average history lesson teaches. Maybe other people got really inaccurate history lessons? Because none of mine taught that technology or philosophy/science were recent innovations.

The evidence is that agriculture arose about 10,000 years ago (we know this from archaeological evidence) and people then were able to accumulate stuff and therefore begin building big stone monuments like Stonehenge and the Pyramids. Before that, there wasn't much like that because there was no way to maintain it, nor were societies large enough to have the organized man-power to build them. I think technology goes back to the first stone tools and "advanced thinking" is a non-useful term. Without definition, such phrases are just so much fluff.

And far longer than the Abrahamic tradition?

Of course.

I find it naive, given the evidence, to think our Victorian history lessons are truly representative.

I don't know about where you're at, but we don't teach history here the same way it was taught in the Victorian era.

As for Theosophy, while I can agree with some of the ethical principles, I find the history they put forth to be without archaeological evidence, and the interpretations of various cultures' beliefs and practices to be based more in independent wishful thinking than real culture studies. I think mysticism is a totally valid way to come to God. I don't think it has much relevance in establishing archaeological facts. I find that most Victorian ideology, whether Theosophic or mainstream, is unsurprisingly behind the times when pitted against modern evidence. We've come a long way in the last 100 years. I see no reason to ignore it.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

I believe there is an `ignore' feature somewhere here at CR. I am off this very instant to locate it!

Since, however, for some ungodly reason (sic) bb seeems to have moderator status, I will need some kind of intervention to accomplish my goal. Can any one tell me how to IGNORE a member, save when that person is posting in moderator capacity?

I really would be most appreciative, and it would help immensely!

Thank you.

As far as I know, you don't need special intervention.

Click on BB's name. Underneath it on his profile is a gray bar. Click "Add to Ignore List."