EVIL! what is it?

[At_the_Wellspring]

Hi Z

I agree, society has a lot to answer for if it allows the situations of stress/ disharmony/ hatred to exist - I guess its that balance of individual responsibility and social responsibility - it needs to be both rather than seeing either solely to blame.

And in the end there is the Oneness that we will all return to, but perhaps it is a matter of trying to recognise that Oneness right now that will help us improve our world - improving the conditions of a society will improve the conditions of the individual, improving the conditions of the individual will improve the conditions of society.

We just find it easier blaming something else for our woes - whether it be some external force like the Devil, or just blaming the few evil individuals who live in our world as being the source of all evil, rather than recognising our own responsibility.

So maybe Satan does cease to exist, and that would have to mean that 'God' also ceases to exist (if God is considered the good spectrum rather than the all-encompassing good-evil). It would be recognising also that the good that we do also comes from within our own human capacity rather than outside ourselves. While I do think that is true, I still believe that we can gain strength from some other force, which is in some ways external ('God') but which could also perhaps be considered as the 'collective consciousness' or the 'human spirit' - something somehow beyond our individual self.

But if I believe that then I have to also believe that there is a possible source of evil beyond the individual person - 'collective evil' or something... hmm I think I'm going around in circles here...


I agree about the animals - I don't mean to put them down - we have much to admire from them and even learn from them. As well as amazing intuition and perception, I admire the fact that our dog will love unconditionally - no matter whether you are fat or thing or ugly or aisn or greek - he offers the same love to all - something i would say us humans sometimes have difficulty with... I wonder if we have lost some of the qualities we must have had when we lived closer to nature - the sense of affinity with nature, perceptions and intuition about the seasons, the weather etc


At_the_Wellspring

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by At_the_Wellspring

But if I believe that then I have to also believe that there is a possible source of evil beyond the individual person - 'collective evil' or something... hmm I think I'm going around in circles here...

LOL. it is really good thoughtful input to it. i just kind of divide it down the middle & leave a little room for 'fun' evil, like practical jokes & good humor, maybe a little sarcasm once in awhile or even getting spooked like ghost stories.

I agree about the animals - I don't mean to put them down - we have much to admire from them and even learn from them. As well as amazing intuition and perception, I admire the fact that our dog will love unconditionally - no matter whether you are fat or thing or ugly or aisn or greek - he offers the same love to all - something i would say us humans sometimes have difficulty with... I wonder if we have lost some of the qualities we must have had when we lived closer to nature - the sense of affinity with nature, perceptions and intuition about the seasons, the weather etc


At_the_Wellspring

i am totally into observing all that as well.

[_Z_]

At the wellspring.



Yep, it’s all in the balance of the social and the individual. And yes its up to us to make the oneness exist. We should remember though, that the oneness is more than infinite, thence permeates all of existence [& non existence]. This is why it is a factor in the balance; it is what I call the ‘common unifier’ in all things – even our thoughts!



I disagree that if Satan stops existing then god does, as the god of the good spectrum is a personification/extrapolation of that element of the oneness. God is beyond all! He is incomparative! We may draw from this ‘source’ [collective subconscious as you refer to it] from within ourselves, but I think that it is both within and without external and internal.



We all go around in circles – such is the nature of linguistics & debate .



Yes we are still left with the question ‘does evil have form/spirit/existence’?



I would like to say no, but I have seen the dark light and know that it brings out all of our fears and lesser natures! Yet if fears are confronted and lesser natures are understood [thence dispelled], it is powerless! Thus perhaps it is the spiritual form of our ignorance and spiritual weakness!



Yes I agree – we have lost our connection with nature [gods creation]. Druids like me have a special relationship with nature and the weather – have you ever tried making clouds disappear or rain come? It was raining on my sisters wedding day and I asked the sky for it to become sunny & sure enough it was [crazy as that sounds] – it is surprising how we are joined at the hip [so to speak] with everything.





Z

[WhereAmI]

i hope im not too late....

For me Evil is in the mind....

We all have evil thoughts every once in a while...for example i would like to bash every car that is illegaly parked around my house... but i dont act on it.

in order to be evil one must act on these ideas and have something to gain at someones or something elses expense...

An Example.......
If someone wants my new and cool watch they can run up and take it from me....
That person had an Idea= to take my watch
They acted on it= took my watch
At MY expense= i no longer have a cool and new watch


Nature isnt nessisarily evil .... if a rock falls on a guy that doesnt make the rock evil.... but as you can see nature can be cruel

What do you guys think????


and one more thing....

Just because your dog loves you unconditionally doesnt mean that nature is always nice.... a hungary "lion tiger or bear" will be glad to have you or me during snack time Just ask the GRIZZLY MAN(Google it if you dont know what im talking about) .... Humans are very primal, take any anthropology class and youll understand.... primates struggle to survive day by day and primates do many many evil things (except bonobos heh google that too), dont believe Planet of the Apes....

[pohaikawahine]

I just look at it all as "light" and "dark" or as you first stated "yin and yang" .... it is all about seeking the 'balance' between the two energies which are inherent in each of us and will not change .... one cannot exist without the other so it is never possible to sustain one over the other all the time .... if we as human beings constantly seek balance in all that we do, we just might survive with this great universe of which we are a small part .... I don't believe in the devil or satan because I think hell is just a state of mind (that can be changed ).... the hawaiian word for balance is "pono" and we have a process called "ho'oponopono" (to make right or to return to the balance) ... in this process the family works out the problem (any transgression) and then arranged for reparation or forgiveness .... the problem is recognized, ventilated, atoned for, and then removed by forgiveness totally and without reservations .... forgiveness is extended to "mai ka piko o ke po'o a ka poli o ka wawae, a ma na kihi 'eha o ke kino." (from the top of the head to the soles of the feet and between all four corners of the body) then you must symbolically cut the rope that binds the transgressor and the transgressed so that the problem is released totally and is not carried forward .... all this is done with the intent to return to a state of "pono" (balance) .... sounds easy, but in reality requires a lot of work within the family .... me ke aloha pumehana, poh

[Popeyesays]

Evil is the absence of "good".

In creation there is no evil; all is good. Certain qualities and natures innate in some men and apparently blameworthy are not so in reality. For example, from the beginning of his life you can see in a nursing child the signs of greed, of anger and of temper. Then, it may be said, good and evil are innate in the reality of man, and this is contrary to the pure goodness of nature and creation. The answer to this is that greed, which is to ask for something more, is a praiseworthy quality provided that it is used suitably. So if a man is greedy to acquire science and knowledge, or to become compassionate, generous and just, it is most praiseworthy. If he exercises his anger and wrath against the bloodthirsty tyrants who are like ferocious beasts, it is very praiseworthy; but if he does not use these qualities in a right way, they are blameworthy.
Then it is evident that in creation and nature evil does not exist at all; but when the natural qualities of man are used in an unlawful way, they are blameworthy. So if a rich and generous person gives a sum of money to a poor man for his own necessities, and if the poor man spends that sum of money on unlawful things, that will be blameworthy. It is the same with all the natural qualities of man, which constitute the capital of life; if they be used and displayed in an unlawful way, they become blameworthy. Therefore, it is clear that creation is purely good. Consider that the worst of qualities and most odious of attributes, which is the foundation of all evil, is lying. No worse or more blameworthy quality than this can be imagined to exist; it is the destroyer of all human perfections and the cause of innumerable vices. There is no worse characteristic than this; it is the foundation of all evils. Notwithstanding all this, if a doctor consoles a sick man by saying, "Thank God you are better, and there is 216 hope of your recovery," though these words are contrary to the truth, yet they may become the consolation of the patient and the turning point of the illness. This is not blameworthy.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 215)


Regards,
Scott

[Bandit]

evil is when the boogieman monster hides under your bed & if you put your foot down on the floor he will grab it.

[_Z_]

Whereami, hello!



Yep I would agree that evil is largely in the mind, yet the mind may be more extensive than you think; connected to something more universal, and to the balance. Have you ever questioned why certain things arise in people’s minds! I believe that if you are pure and never commit anything less than divine then you create your equal and opposite – hence the Christian god and satan. I think it was perhaps better when gods were more balanced, or perhaps to see it without gods, then the balance is still there and each action creates its opposite – this is thence the thoughts that enter our minds! basically for me it all about keeping away from extremes.



You are never to late to answer a thread here!



Glad to meet and much respect



Z

[WhereAmI]

Z,

good point!!!

on the other hand

an action might make more than just an (one) opposite....
but infintie actions that you didn't do.

things can't just be A or B there is also C D E F G H I J K all the way to infinite(and beyond )

For example, I heard a guy on time say that if you say yes to something then you are also giving an implied no to everything else.

like if you get married to a girl and say you want to be with her the rest of your life ..... you are also saying no to every other girl anywhere.....

So if you do one thing there are an infinite number of things you didn't do.... good and bad......


my head hurts thinking about these things ...
(this stuff happends all the time when i think about time travel)

[_Z_]

Whereami.

An action might make more than just an (one) opposite....
but infinite actions that you didn't do.

Indeed it may, a karmic butterfly effect if you will - Good point! I wonder if this would take the form of fractionalisation relative to the balance, or perhaps destabilizes it causing – as you implied – a greater effect than the primary action. If then there are many such occurrences at once at any point in time, then perhaps similars join multiplying a general effect that could have widespread effect? Like for example Hitler was just one man, yet at the head of that particular ‘Ether stream’ caused must evil!

Interesting!

If you say yes to something then you are also giving an implied no to everything else

Implied yes, but not actual. Also something’s would not be relevant thus no is not applicable, and one could say yes to everything then there is nothing left to say no to!

So if you do one thing there are an infinite number of things you didn't do.... good and bad......

What if an infinite amount of things were done at once? As infinite time is like a blank sheet finite time [and everything else] is like lots of points on that paper, thus in short, it could be possible to perform a finite amount of task’s, including events/tasks set in relative linear finite time in infinite time i.e. instantly [as infinity is timeless]. Thus a multiplicity within the one may occur or it may be achieved at once – in one go!



Thanx for your reply



Respect



Z

[_Z_]

heres one!

In the end evil shall always win because; there is no 'good' in prevail!


Oh look 'evil' spells 'live' backwards!



Z

[wil]

Yes, duality is something I have a hard time understanding sometimes...

problem is we are currently incarnated in a dualistic world, which makes dualistic thinking (not one-ness) more than a little confusing and awufully hard to speak about.

Like darkness is the lack of light...turn the light on the dark goes away, hide your light under a bushel basket..dark fills in.

God is good, omnipotent and omniprescent....so existing in what we deem to be evil which is really our inability to see the good....time typically heals this, hindsight being 20/20 we look back at what we deemed to be evil and realize it got us to this point...

Then there is the concept of attraction, watch leaves in the fall swirling in the wind...given time they all find their place to gather...mercury and oil gather in the oceans in seperate places...different vibrations(weights in this case) but also flotsam..the garbage that falls off of ocean going container ships...after circling around in the gulf stream or whatever other current, the sneakers all find thier corner, as do the aluminum cans, the waterlogged plywood, etc.... as the idea flows our ideas of greatness and compassion find their ways to the Mother Teresas and the Ghandis of the world while our cursing at drivers, ornerness for no reason accumulates in the Hitlers, and Sadams... what are we creating? more expressors of hate or more expressors of love.... what have I done to create a terrorist lately...hmmm

Yes evil is our creation when we lost our connection to the source...whatever you may call it...

namaste,

[_Z_]

Wil, hi.



Here’s a little druidic ‘natural philosophy’ of the direct view.

A tree is a tree a rock is a rock, there is no good or evil that can be directly attributed to the reality of a thing, they are metaphors. If we strip away all the metaphors we use to describe things, then nothing has good or evil, spirit is of its own nature. So we may think of the spirit/Ether as like an ocean of simplicity and actions therein as the shaping of this ocean, beginning with the most subtle of natures all the way through to the gross. Evil then is in the realm of actions but not then in the realm of the Ether! It is like reality of the thing and the illusion; the action is a reality, the metaphor i.e. good or evil, is the illusion.



I think in the latter part of your post, you were talking about how we all affect each others thought on a universal scale. I would suggest from this that our thoughts and behaviourisms have an impact on the ethers which makes thought enter others minds, if we then add the ingredient of universal balance, then if we are too good then we create evil thoughts in others. That does not mean that they have to act by these thoughts, but fate has a way of putting people in positions where they act out of character, + some people are week minded or deluded. This is why I don’t agree with the moralistic approach of abrahamic religions, as good creates evil and vice versa, I’ll go for the maat [Egyptian Tao, kinda] or the middle path of the balance, thus I am of neither extreme and create neither.

interesting stuff!

respect

Z

[Tao_Equus]

The concept of Good and Evil I believe to be entirely the product of the human psyche. Think of them as Altruism and Selfishness. Without exception a person percieved to be engaged in an act of Good is not being selfish. And conversely an evil act is genraly percieved to have been perpetrated with selfish motives. The problem of defining what is good and evil then rests on which side of the fence your sat on. The 'common good' of the shia militiamen is not the 'common good' of the US Republican party (but strangely may be of Haliburton shareholders).
I have noted in my lifetime that the very people who label others as evil, (and how many times has George W Bush used the word now?) are some of the darkest, scariest and overtly corrupt people we see on our t.v. screens, (does the Rev. Iain Paisley not scare you?). Could it be that each mention of the very word is some kind of bugle call to its negative aura? Or the opposite, we can recognise truly good people in that they see no evil?

The source of these conflicting traits of the human condition I believe are nothing more that the sentient manifestation of basic animal survival tools. And so not in any sense 'devine principles'. Sometimes social animals have to co-operate for social cohesion is in thier own interests and thus behave, in a primitive sense, in an altruistic way. When things are a bit tougher and the social group no longer supplies all the needs of the individual then it is apt to behave selfishly and is capable of extremes in its behaviour. In a man or woman that commits (dare I use the word now) an evil act he or she is behaving no differently from that animal. The only difference is the human has the intelligence to commit the act with infinitely more cunning.

I believe we all have the potential for both and further that we all carry out this dual potential on a daily basis. Just for most people its too insignificant to notice.

Its been a good thread and I enjoyed all the views very much

[_Z_]

Tao Equus,



Absolutely! I would put it like this; there are those who would say “burn the witch”, yet if we burned the ones who say burn the witch then for once in the history of man we would get the right b’stards! Y’know I have lately had serious doubts concerning moralist religions, I mean e.g. there are Christians and there are Christians, Christ said ‘judge not or though shall be judged thyself’ yet so many people who claim to be Christians twist events and words into what can be seen as evil, yet of itself is not! Some make themselves think they are better than others in this way, but this is not Christianity imho. Unfortunately the history of such religions shows their shortcomings e.g. war, spite, distrust & judgement. As soon as we believe in good we immediately consider others not the same as us to be evil, this is the underlying duality in infantile and simplistic worldviews of moralistic religion – better to stay in the middle I would say.



I agree about the bugle call! That says it well – excellent! The same may apply to all [or most] labels used to pin people to evil notions – if you don’t see things so then you see all people as just people, too much hysteria around words these days!

I believe we all have the potential for both and further that we all carry out this dual potential on a daily basis. Just for most people its too insignificant to notice.

Absolutely! There is an old anarchist principle that says ‘the person is not the crime’ i.e. people cannot be criminals, merely victims of there environment! - we are born the hierophant. Here we can consider the environment as everything external to the self including the brain and all other ‘input’.



Thanx



Z