Ever Feared not Believing in Jesus?

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Dondi

What if being enlightened or spiritual or whatever just be that we are operating correctly according to how we were supposed to function? That when we do the right thing, we experience the spiritual or sense of enlightenment, as if operating in "the zone"? A place where we can experience the Divine or One or whatever Buddhism calls it? I would venture to say that this phenomenon can occur regardless of religious affiliation.

Dondi, I believe what you have expressed here is (to use the vernacular) spot on. I would just perhaps highlight the little phrase “as if”. Because I would say that in reality there is no “zone.”

This is bliss. He showed them the example. Yet it runs counter to our own ego, for we believe that bliss comes by being served. But the tables are turned. The way is the opposite direction of that which you wish to go. So in saying, "I am the way", Jesus is pointing to that direction. This a theme throughout His whole ministry. Whomever Jesus is addressing needs to go in that direction if they are going to find what they need.

What Shakyamuni “found” was liberation for Shakyamuni. He then offered a guide to others to find their own liberation.

Only by dealing with our egos can we even hope to operate correctly.



s.

[seattlegal]

I have a question regarding Buddhism and Jesus:

Are there any Buddhists who consider Jesus as practicing Vajra Pride? {I'm not sure whether that is the correct term -my vocabulary is different. I'm referring to the practice whereby a being pictures themselves as being the manifestation of compassion, as might be evidenced by Jesus saying, "The Father and I are one." (or something to that effect?) }

If this is an invalid question, please ignore it...

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Dondi, I believe what you have expressed here is (to use the vernacular) spot on. I would just perhaps highlight the little phrase “as if”. Because I would say that in reality there is no “zone.”

I don't understand what you mean by there is no zone. You ever seen athletes like quarterbacks that just seen to have everything click on a given Sunday? They are making most of their passes and avoiding sacks and really the whole team is playing well. I mean they become unstoppable. They are in "the zone". The next week, they play horribly and lose to a mediocre team. Why? They aren't in the zone.

Or how about when Tiger Woods has his "A" game on. He gets so far ahead of the pack that he's guarenteed to win. Other times he's struggling just to stay in the top ten.

Would you not agree that our goal ought to find that groove and stay there?

Originally Posted by Snoopy

What Shakyamuni “found” was liberation for Shakyamuni. He then offered a guide to others to find their own liberation.

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Only by dealing with our egos can we even hope to operate correctly.
s.

Yes, there is a time when we need to follow example, but then there ought to be a point when we should be able to fly on our own. We learn, then we do. Or do not. (There is no try) Hmmmm...

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Would you not agree that our goal ought to find that groove and stay there?

As I said earlier I'm not really one for goals as such. I wasn't really thinking about sports performance when I referred to "no zone". Maybe you are calling "correct operation" as being "in the zone".

s.

[Nick the Pilot]

seattlegal,

I wonder if you are referring to the Buddhist concept of Avatara, whereby Gautama Buddha was a manifestation of a higher Buddha. There are some people who see Jesus as an Avatara.

Or, are you referring to the Hindu concept of Atman, in which all of us are manifestations of our higher self? (This is the concept that agrees with me, whereby our Atman is our Father. This is exactly the idea I think Jesus was trying to get across.)

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

I have a question regarding Buddhism and Jesus:

Are there any Buddhists who consider Jesus as practicing Vajra Pride? {I'm not sure whether that is the correct term -my vocabulary is different. I'm referring to the practice whereby a being pictures themselves as being the manifestation of compassion, as might be evidenced by Jesus saying, "The Father and I are one." (or something to that effect?) }

If this is an invalid question, please ignore it...

Seattlegal and Nick,

Vajra Pride sounds like something from the Tibetan traditions of Buddhism. I've heard of something like it before. My understanding is that there are technique where one attempts to fully identify/merge with a god/goddess/avatar/whathaveyou. I've never ever thought of Jesus's statement of "The Father and I are one" being a practice of this kind, probably because the christian compartments of my mind still have a hard time wiggling along with the buddhist compartments of my mind. That said, it does make sense to me, and helps me reconcile myself to a statement that has too often been co-opted by fundamentalists and other christians to make that ever fearful point that, "Our way is the only way!!"

Now if we can work on "I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to the father except through me," in a similar way, I'll be good to go!



Thanks for the bodhicitta, seattlegal.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Seattlegal and Nick,

Vajra Pride sounds like something from the Tibetan traditions of Buddhism. I've heard of something like it before. My understanding is that there are technique where one attempts to fully identify/merge with a god/goddess/avatar/whathaveyou. I've never ever thought of Jesus's statement of "The Father and I are one" being a practice of this kind, probably because the christian compartments of my mind still have a hard time wiggling along with the buddhist compartments of my mind. That said, it does make sense to me, and helps me reconcile myself to a statement that has too often been co-opted by fundamentalists and other christians to make that ever fearful point that, "Our way is the only way!!"

Now if we can work on "I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to the father except through me," in a similar way, I'll be good to go!



Thanks for the bodhicitta, seattlegal.

Yes, that is what I'm talking about.

[Nick the Pilot]

Pathless,

In my humble opinion, that is exactly what Jesus meant by the statement, "I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to the father except through me." The way I see it, this is a way of reuniting with our Atman. Jesus did not mean he was the only way, he meant the path he taught was the only way, which is something I completely agree with. (I have to wonder if the wording of the original text was altered.) If you look at it this way, Jesus' and Buddha's teachings are identical.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Bruce Michael,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

Saints are saints regardless of the rules of men, Vajradhara.

i'm pretty sure that this isn't so. i'm pretty certain that the whole idea of "saints" is strictly within the confines of human thought and ideas and, i would suspect, that each tradition that has such beings has a fairly rigorous criteria by which a being could be determined to be such. though, in truth, i have not spent much time investigating the issue of how saints are selected in all the traditions which have such things.

Some who have been made saints by the Church aren't really, and the Church has missed plenty- Blessed Raymond Lully for instance.

dunno who that person is but i would presume that many beings were given sainthood status for other than religious reasons.

metta,

~v

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

I have a question regarding Buddhism and Jesus:

Are there any Buddhists who consider Jesus as practicing Vajra Pride? {I'm not sure whether that is the correct term -my vocabulary is different. I'm referring to the practice whereby a being pictures themselves as being the manifestation of compassion, as might be evidenced by Jesus saying, "The Father and I are one." (or something to that effect?) }

If this is an invalid question, please ignore it...

Namaste Seattlegal,

thank you for the question.

i would tend to say not since there is no evidence that Jesus had practiced any of the higher tantras to receive empowerment to practice the generation stage the development of vajra pride, as it were, and such is considered required before the generational stage teachings are given.

this is, of course, a distinctive feature of the Vajrayana and is not found in other Buddhist schools of practice.

metta,

~v

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Pathless,

In my humble opinion, that is exactly what Jesus meant by the statement, "I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to the father except through me." The way I see it, this is a way of reuniting with our Atman. Jesus did not mean he was the only way, he meant the path he taught was the only way, which is something I completely agree with. (I have to wonder if the wording of the original text was altered.) If you look at it this way, Jesus' and Buddha's teachings are identical.

Namaste Nick,

other than the fact that Buddhas teachings indicate that belief in the Atman is part of Wrong View, belief in creator deities is unfounded and causes one to have no motivation to engage in moral and ethical actions, and there is no need to rely upon another being for our salvation.

of course the Buddha also taught that outside of the Dharma Liberation was not possible... so i'm not really sure how you are reconciling the teachings of these two disparate religious paradigms that are grounded on radically different understandings of ontological reality and i'm not really sure of the benefit therein.

metta,

~v

[Nick the Pilot]

Vajradhara, You said,

"...i'm not really sure how you are reconciling the teachings of these two disparate religious paradigms...."

--> I want to make it clear I am not reconciling modern Buddhism and modern Christianity. I am reconciling what I perceive to be what Buddha and Jesus originally taught. I reconcile them by saying both sets of original teachings came from a common source, a kind of "Cosmic Dharma."


I want to make it clear that, in my humble opinion, the teachings of modern Buddhism and Christianity can never be reconciled.

"....i'm not really sure of the benefit therein."

--> I am quite convinced of the benefit.

There is the idea that both sets of teachings came from a common source. (1) There are those of us who accept such an idea — I am such a person. (2) There are those of us who do not accept such an idea — you are such a person. I fully respect your right to feel this way, and I celebrate our differences.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Namaste Seattlegal,

thank you for the question.

i would tend to say not since there is no evidence that Jesus had practiced any of the higher tantras to receive empowerment to practice the generation stage the development of vajra pride, as it were, and such is considered required before the generational stage teachings are given.

this is, of course, a distinctive feature of the Vajrayana and is not found in other Buddhist schools of practice.

metta,

~v

I was thinking more a parallel practice that achieves similiar results. Although I'm ignorant concerning actual vajra practices, does Jesus going out into the wilderness and fasting for 40 days, and being tempted in Matthew 4:1-11 sound like there might be a parallel there? Or, as is stated in the Book of James 1:12-15

12 Blessed is a man who endures trials, [a] because when he passes the test he will receive the crown (J) of life that He [b] has promised to those who love Him. (K)
13 No one undergoing a trial should say, "I am being tempted by God." For God is not tempted by evil, [c] and He Himself doesn't tempt anyone. 14 But each person is tempted when he is drawn away and enticed by his own evil desires. 15 Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death. (L)

Any parallels there?

[Bruce Michael]

Christianity as Mystical Fact
The conformity in the lives of these two redeemers- Jesus & Buddha.

• The birth of Buddha is announced by a white elephant who descends to Maya, the queen. He declares that she will bring forth a divine man who "attunes all people to love and friendship and unites them in an intimate company."

Compare:

• In Luke's Gospel is written: ". . . to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David: and the virgin's name was Mary. And the angel came in unto her and said, 'Hail thou that art highly favored . . . Behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Highest.'

• " Maya's dream is interpreted by the Brahmins, the Indian priests, who know that it signifies the birth of a Buddha. They have a definite, typical idea of a Buddha. The life of the individual personality will have to correspond to this idea.

Correspondingly:

• we read in Matthew 2:1, et seq., that when Herod "had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born."

• The Brahmin Asita says of Buddha, "This is the child which will become Buddha, the redeemer, the leader to immortality, freedom and light."

Compare:

• this with Luke 2:5: "And behold there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.... And when the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him after the custom of the law, then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: for mine eyes have seen thy salvation, which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; a light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel."

• It is related of Buddha that at the age of twelve he was lost, and was found again under a tree, surrounded by minstrels and sages of ancient times, whom he was teaching.

This corresponds to:

• Luke 2:41-47: "Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast. And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem, and Joseph and his mother knew not of it. But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance. And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him. And it came to pass that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers."

• After Buddha had lived in solitude and had returned, he was received by the benediction of a virgin: "Blessed is the mother, blessed is the father, blessed is the wife to whom thou belongest." But he replied, "Only they are blessed who are in Nirvana," i.e., those who have entered the eternal cosmic order.

In Luke 11:2-28 is written:

• "And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice and said unto him, 'Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.' But he said, 'Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.'"

• In the course of Buddha's life the tempter approaches him, promising him all the kingdoms of the earth. Buddha will have nothing to do with this, answering, "I know well that a kingdom is appointed to me, but I do not desire an earthly one; I shall become Buddha and make all the world exult for joy." The tempter has to admit, "My reign is over."

Jesus answers the same temptation in the words:

• "Get thee hence, Satan, for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Then the devil leaveth him." (Matthew 4:10,11)

• The life of Buddha ended sublimely. During a journey he felt ill. He came to the river Hiranja, near Kuschinagara. There he lay down on a carpet spread for him by his favorite disciple, Ananda. His body began to shine from within. He died transfigured, a body of light, saying, "Nothing endures."

The death of Buddha corresponds with the transfiguration of Jesus:

• "And it came to pass about eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistening."

[sangam]

interesting discussion as always.......

jesus, buddha, and many others besides reached the end of the path....but it was always there.....and remains.....they tried to show others how to 'follow' that path by the best means they could....

it is the yearning that counts above all....i feel

fear is the substance life is made of....maybe because it knows it ends in death.......but when one makes his peace with 'nothing endures'.......perhaps one dies without dying.....maybe then there is no fear....