Ethical stem cell research

[Thomas]

Catholic World News

Philadelphia, Nov. 23, 2007 (CWNews.com) - A new technique for obtaining stem cells could eliminate the public pressure for destructive research on human embryos, a Catholic think-tank reports.

The National Catholic Bioethics Center (NCBC) has welcomed the results of research by Dr. Shinya Yamanaka and Dr. James Thomson, who have found a method of using skin cells to obtain pluripotent stem cells. By "reprogramming" the skin cells, the researchers found that they could reproduce the features that scientists find most desirable in embryonic stem cells.

Research using stem cells obtained from human embryos has met with resistance from Catholic ethicists, since the embryos are destroyed in the process of harvesting the pluripotent stem cells. The Yamanaka-Thomson research promises a means of obtaining stem cells readily without ethical problems.

The new technique "fully conforms to what we have hoped to see for some time," the NCBC announced. "Such strategies should continue to be pursued and strongly promoted, as they should help to steer the entire field of stem cell research in a more explicitly ethical direction by circumventing the moral quagmire associated with destroying human embryos."

Thomas ... 'reprogramming' sounds a bit too simple a solution ... ?

[Francis king]

no, its harder than it sounds.. its so far taken them months to build a few heart cells, for example, from these stem cells, so the day when they can create a new heart is years away, but probably only years!

basically, u use ur own cells, alter their DNA sequencing, et voila! new cells! no post transplant drugs needed! no rejection of transplants! all sounds good to me...

[wil]

wonder if they'll still think it ethical when they create the first entire human from some skin cells...oops.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Francis king

no, its harder than it sounds.. its so far taken them months to build a few heart cells, for example, from these stem cells, so the day when they can create a new heart is years away, but probably only years!

basically, u use ur own cells, alter their DNA sequencing, et voila! new cells! no post transplant drugs needed! no rejection of transplants! all sounds good to me...

There are already adult stem cell treatments to repair heart damage that use your own stem cells, that do not require any messing with their DNA, do not produce tumors like the pluripotent stem cells, and does not require the major invasive surgery of a transplant.

[wil]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

There are already adult stem cell treatments to repair heart damage that use your own stem cells, that do not require any messing with their DNA, do not produce tumors like the pluripotent stem cells, and does not require the major invasive surgery of a transplant.

Yes, as is my understanding the majority of the research focuses on embryonic stem cells, yet the majority of the successes has been from adult stem cells.

Politics seems to play in so many phases of medical research. If you look at the dollars spent on various ailments vs. the deaths or those inflicted from various ailments it is not logical. But the squeaky wheels get the grease.

What we resist persists, the more folks complain that they don't want embryonic stem cell research the more folks will insist we have to have it. (Despite the fact that it has been going on all along.)

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by wil

Yes, as is my understanding the majority of the research focuses on embryonic stem cells, yet the majority of the successes has been from adult stem cells.

Majority? Don't you mean all? {Embryonic stem cells cause brain tumors.}

Politics seems to play in so many phases of medical research. If you look at the dollars spent on various ailments vs. the deaths or those inflicted from various ailments it is not logical. But the squeaky wheels get the grease.

What we resist persists, the more folks complain that they don't want embryonic stem cell research the more folks will insist we have to have it. (Despite the fact that it has been going on all along.)

It's a big money grab. {Isn't that what it usually boils down to when an issue is politicized?} The adult stem cell treatments can't be patented, because their action is completely naturallly occurring. However, engineered embryonic stem cell techniques can be patented because they don't naturally occur. The potential for cure without side effects is definitely on the side of adult stem cells, but the potential to make a lot of money is on the side of embryonic research, the one with the increased potential to cause harm.

[wil]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Majority? Don't you mean all? {Embryonic stem cells cause brain tumors.}

It's a big money grab. {Isn't that what it usually boils down to when an issue is politicized?} The adult stem cell treatments can't be patented, because their action is completely naturallly occurring. However, engineered embryonic stem cell techniques can be patented because they don't naturally occur. The potential for cure without side effects is definitely on the side of adult stem cells, but the potential to make a lot of money is on the side of embryonic research, the one with the increased potential to cause harm.

I knew not this, but it makes sense. Profits make our world go round.

[flowperson]

Seattle's right about the money aspect. I read Genetic Engineering News faithfully for many years, and from the very beginnings of the work, money people have been sometimes prematurely pushing basic research findings into applied research modes because this brings it all closer to the money trees, supposedly. SWometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't

The skin cell thingy is years away from any sort of commercial application, whilst the embryonic version is there already. Which do you think will be applied in the marketplace first off ?

No, all of the fallderall about this new discovery is mostly window dressing for those who wish to flaunt and display their "good" moral intents, while they ramp up their investments in methodologies which are closer to commercial payoffs. It's just they way the commercialization of science works in the "real" world.

flow....

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by flowperson

the money trees

You mean my parents were lying to me?

s.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Seattle's right about the money aspect. I read Genetic Engineering News faithfully for many years, and from the very beginnings of the work, money people have been sometimes prematurely pushing basic research findings into applied research modes because this brings it all closer to the money trees, supposedly. SWometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't

The skin cell thingy is years away from any sort of commercial application, whilst the embryonic version is there already. Which do you think will be applied in the marketplace first off ?

No, all of the fallderall about this new discovery is mostly window dressing for those who wish to flaunt and display their "good" moral intents, while they ramp up their investments in methodologies which are closer to commercial payoffs. It's just they way the commercialization of science works in the "real" world.

flow....

I think that so many are entranced by the Siren's Song of pluripotency that they fail to realize that the most practical application for the more primative pluripotent cells is in the area of cancer research and genetic mutations via abnormal gene expression, imo. {The study of what goes wrong--because pluripotent cells are really good at going wrong. Increased potential to become any cell type also means increased potential to become the wrong cell type.}

[Thomas]

Sadly 'ethics' can be as alien to medical science as any other discipline.

I was listening to the BBC on Sunday, a raadio programme about cancer research papers published in peer-reviewed journals that have been shown to have been based on contaminated or faulty (or falsely-identified) cell cultures.

One irate American professor spent three years trying to reproduce an experiment (growing cancer cells from healthy cells to find the trigger) until he went and examined the original data — and found out that the original healthy cell culture was contained with cancer cells — something that had later come to light, but which was not published. He reckoned a loss in the community between 20-40m$.

Apparently this is widespread — the urge to be published and thus secure funding driving laboratories that don't take any responsibility for ensuring that supplied materials are what they claim to be.

An independent body has been suggested as a process to verify cell cultures, which would cost less than £200 a time to 'validate' the material, and which is backed by charitable organisations and govt. bodies that donate the money for research — but has met considerable resistance.

Meanwhile there is little or no validation of the commercial sale of cell cultures available for research that lead to apparently successful experiments, and published papers, so whole branches of investigation spring up from faulty data — meaning not only is money wasted, but subsequent genuine effort is misdirected and years wasted looking in the wrong place.

Many of the faulty tests have been subsequently identified, but there is no means of diseminating the information. A few accidental, or sloppy, and even dishonest individuals, effectively defraud the community by sidelining funds to hopeless research initiatives.

Thomas

[flowperson]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

You mean my parents were lying to me?

s.

And I suppose that they didn't tell you either that "money trees" could be found most often in dark, smoke-filled rooms.

Snoopy, it seems that you have been immersed inside of a vast, right wing, conspiratorial disinformation campaign from the very start my friend. See what "they" will do to prevent "smart" people from having money ?

Seattle...which all reminds me of the tale of the "pluripotent" man who, in order to delimit his possibilities, was placed in front of two doors and forced to choose between them. He would be placed under duress and be forced to open the door he chose, and then to bear the consequences of his decision.

Yeah, you guessed it, the beautiful lady or the tiger. Either choice has a "potential" for disaster, but that's what the "joke" of life is all about.

Is that a Persian or Indian fable ?

Thomas...I and several others of us in the genetic engineering game decided sometime ago that human choices in this realm could potentially affect thousands/millions of people for good or ill. And such choices could be made with the best information in hand regarding future outcomes. But of course one can never have enough information about future outcomes since nature is famously fickle in her activities.

Technology is just another two sided coin, but its potential to amplify and foster both good and bad outcomes/choices on a vast scale sets it apart from more mundane activities, like buying an auto or telly for instance. Of course the politicians will say, we can regulate this to minimize risk. Most of them are grossly misinformed and make their decisions based fully upon economic considerations anyway.

flow....

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Seattle...which all reminds me of the tale of the "pluripotent" man who, in order to delimit his possibilities, was placed in front of two doors and forced to choose between them. He would be placed under duress and be forced to open the door he chose, and then to bear the consequences of his decision.

Yeah, you guessed it, the beautiful lady or the tiger. Either choice has a "potential" for disaster, but that's what the "joke" of life is all about.

Is that a Persian or Indian fable ?

flow....

It's a short story from 1882 by Frank R Stockton
The Lady or the Tiger?

[flowperson]

Hi Seattle...I don't know why I thought it was Eastern Mythology. Maybe I once read an illustrated version that gave me that impression.

All I can say is, been there done that. Up until now I have chosen the lady through dumb luck. But as I noted before, that also can be a "devouring" experience. Time and space are always the determinants of realities.

I'm pretty sure that the princess indicated the "tiger" door to her lover. It's that old "realous jage" thingy you know. Since she was of a barbaric lineage, that would make the most sense to me. Blood lust and revenge always take precedence in the judgements of such individuals I've found. Very Old Testament stuff!

What a wonderful story however. I'm surprised that it's in the public domain and not under copyright by one of Mr. Stockton's heirs. It's sure had staying power IMHO. Thanks.

flow....