"Eternal": not an origianl Biblical term

[Nick the Pilot]

Hi everybody!

I took the Dante's Inferno test elsewhere on this Forum, and I noticed the use of terms like "eternal damnation", etc. Unfortunately, the word eternal did not appear in the original pre-English Old Testament. The original word was oulam", which means an eon or aeon, meaning a very long time, but not forever. There is no word for eternal in Hebrew.

The two words oulam and eon mean the same as kalpa, which is used in Buddhist and Hindu scriptures. Here we have another example of how these three religions come from the same original source.

[Nick the Pilot]

Admin:

Oh dear, I misspelled original in the Title. Can you edit it for me?

[lunamoth]

Hi Nick,

I noticed your comment about the word eternal in the Dante thread. While I was using the word eternity rather tongue-in-cheek in that thread, what is your point about this? Eternity/eternal life is a Christian concept, so it's in the NT. What is the signifcance of it not being in the OT?

BTW, I don't think that the phrase 'eternal life' in the NT refers to the afterlife, although Jesus believed in an afterlife. Eternal life I think is life abundant life, heaven, referring to a life centered on God.

luna

[Nick the Pilot]

Luna,

"What is the signifcance of it not being in the OT?"

--> The references to eternal life, etc., in the English translation of the OT are in error.

I think the NT eternal life refers to afterlife too; you disagree? My understanding of the Chrisitian teaching is that a good person goes straight to Heaven -- eternally. (Same with Hell.) How do you see it?

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Luna,

"What is the signifcance of it not being in the OT?"

--> The references to eternal life, etc., in the English translation of the OT are in error.

I searched for 'eternal' in the NIV...no references seem to be to about the afterlife at all. Error seems to be a pretty strong word to use when for the most part Eternal is being used to describe God. Anyway, not a point I have any interest in debating.

However, belief in the afterlife and resurrection is part of Jewish faith: try here.

Genesis 21:33 TNIV • Read this chapter
Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba, and there he called on the name of the LORD, the Eternal God.

Deuteronomy 33:27 TNIV • Read this chapter
The eternal God is your refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms. He will drive out your enemies before you, saying, 'Destroy them!'

1 Kings 10:9 TNIV • Read this chapter
Praise be to the LORD your God, who has delighted in you and placed you on the throne of Israel. Because of the LORD's eternal love for Israel, he has made you king to maintain justice and righteousness."

Psalm 16:11 TNIV • Read this chapter
You make known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand.

Psalm 111:10 TNIV • Read this chapter
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.

Psalm 119:89 TNIV • Read this chapter
Lamedh Your word, LORD, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens.

Psalm 119:160 TNIV • Read this chapter
All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal.

Ecclesiastes 12:5 TNIV • Read this chapter
when people are afraid of heights and of dangers in the streets; when the almond tree blossoms and the grasshopper drags itself along and desire no longer is stirred. Then people go to their eternal home and mourners go about the streets.

Isaiah 26:4 TNIV • Read this chapter
Trust in the LORD forever, for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal.

Isaiah 47:7 TNIV • Read this chapter
You said, 'I am forever— the eternal queen!' But you did not consider these things or reflect on what might happen.

Jeremiah 10:10 TNIV • Read this chapter
But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath.

Daniel 4:3 TNIV • Read this chapter
How great are his signs, how mighty his wonders! His kingdom is an eternal kingdom; his dominion endures from generation to generation.

Daniel 4:34 TNIV • Read this chapter
At the end of that time, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my sanity was restored. Then I praised the Most High; I honored and glorified him who lives forever. His dominion is an eternal dominion; his kingdom endures from generation to generation.

Originally Posted by Nick

I think the NT eternal life refers to afterlife too; you disagree?

I believe in the afterlife. Eternal life refers to both this life and the next. As I said, my understanding is that eternal life means a life centered in God.

My understanding of the Chrisitian teaching is that a good person goes straight to Heaven -- eternally. (Same with Hell.) How do you see it?

I don't think I've ever heard any adult Christian describe things that way. Heaven and hell are spiritual states of relative nearness to or farness from God. Here's something from Christian theology:

The Christian conception of heaven is essentially that of the eschatological realization of the presence and power of God, and the final elimination of sin. The most helpful way of considering it is to regard it as a consummation of the Christian doctrine of salvation, in which the presence, penalty, and power of sin have all been finally eliminated, and the total presence of God in individuals and the community of faith has been achieved.

It should be noted that the New Testament parables of heaven are strongly communal in nature; for example, heaven is portrayed as a banquet, as a wedding feast, or as a city--the new Jerusalem. Individualist interpretations of heaven or eternal life can also be argued to be inadequate, on account of the Christian understanding of God as Trinity. Eternal life is thus not a projection of an individual human existence, but is rather to be seen as sharing, with the redeemed community as a whole, in the community of a loving God.

So eternal life is not about us as individuals being saved, but about the whole redemption of the world...everyone in God, all in all.

luna

[Nick the Pilot]

Luna,

You said,

"Eternal life is ... seen as...."

--> I think I am starting to understand you. I think you are saying that eternal life is not the same as eternal residence in Heaven or Hell. Is that correct?

Our exchange was

"My understanding of the Chrisitian teaching is that a good person goes straight to Heaven --
eternally. (Same with Hell.) How do you see it?"

"I don't think I've ever heard any adult Christian describe things that way. Heaven and hell are spiritual states of relative nearness to or farness from God."

--> Meaning Heaven and Hell are not forever, according to Christian teaching?

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Luna,

You said,

"Eternal life is ... seen as...."

--> I think I am starting to understand you. I think you are saying that eternal life is not the same as eternal residence in Heaven or Hell. Is that correct?

Our exchange was

"My understanding of the Chrisitian teaching is that a good person goes straight to Heaven --
eternally. (Same with Hell.) How do you see it?"

"I don't think I've ever heard any adult Christian describe things that way. Heaven and hell are spiritual states of relative nearness to or farness from God."

--> Meaning Heaven and Hell are not forever, according to Christian teaching?

This does not compute.

"Forever" implies the experience of time passing...I have no idea if that is a correct idea for heaven or hell. As I said, heaven and hell are states of being, relative closeness to or farness from God. The idea of 'eternal life' does not mean what happens in the afterlife, but what happens now.

Here's some more:

The term "heaven" is used frequently in Pauline writings of the New Testament. Although it is natural to think of heaven as a future entity, Paul's thinking appears to embrace both a futre reality and a spiritual sphere or realm which coexists with the material world of space and time. Thus "heaven" is referred to both as the future home of the believer (2 Cor 5:1-2,; Phil 3:20) and as the present dwelling place of Jesus Christ from which he will come in final judgment (Romans 10:6; 1 Thess 1:10, 4:16).

One of Paul's most significant statements concerning heaven focuses on the notion of believers being "citizens of heaven" (Phil 3:20) and in some way sharing in the life of heaven in the present. The tension between the 'now' and the 'not yet' is evident in Paul's statements concerning heaven, making it very difficult to sustain the simple idea of heaven as something which will not come into being until the future, or which cannot be experienced in the present.

Of course, Christians also believe in our own resurrection. There's lots of speculation, but I don't think any clear consensus, on what exactly this means other than that eventually we will live in God's Holy City, the New Jerusalem, in our resurrected 'transformed' bodies. This will happen at 'the end of the age,' coincident with final judgment.

[Nick the Pilot]

Luna,

First, I do want to apologize if I am making this difficult. I am just trying to understand the Christian teaching.

So, I understand that Christians do not see residence in Heaven and Hell as eternal. Thanks for clearing that up.

If this is so, it agrees with Theosophical teaching, which makes everything go a lot smoother.

[lunamoth]

Another good quote:

Eternal life is to be seen as the state in which our love of God, begun in this life, is finally brought to its completion and consummation, through union with the object of that love. Eternal life is the "reward that makes perfect," to which the Christian has looked forward throughout the life of faith.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

So, I understand that Christians do not see residence in Heaven and Hell as eternal. Thanks for clearing that up.

What do you mean when you say that residence in heaven and hell is eternal (or not)? Are you suggesting a progression of some kind? As I said, my personal understanding is that eternal life is not related to time. Can't say I feel like it's cleared up.

If this is so, it agrees with Theosophical teaching, which makes everything go a lot smoother.

Ummm....why does it make it go smoother?

[lunamoth]

Also, I don't think you are making anything difficult.

Plus of course you realize that I am a sampling of one Christian. Others may have different views.

[Nick the Pilot]

Luna,

You said,

"...my personal understanding is that eternal life is not related to time."

--> We can remove the concept of time from the discussion. I think you are saying that, once someone enters Heaven or Hell, they will never leave (even if time were to "stop" or "disappear"). I believe the concept of "never" can be timeless, just as your concept of eternal life seems to be.

Did I get it right? Is "never" the right word?

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Luna,

You said,

"...my personal understanding is that eternal life is not related to time."

--> We can remove the concept of time from the discussion. I think you are saying that, once someone enters Heaven or Hell, they will never leave (even if time were to "stop" or "disappear"). I believe the concept of "never" can be timeless, just as your concept of eternal life seems to be.

Did I get it right? Is "never" the right word?

Well, this is confusing. I would not say that once someone enters heaven or hell they will never leave...I would not phrase it that way and I would not agree with (what I think) that statement means. When I accept Christ's invitiation to enter the Kingdom of God, I accept His invitation to see and do things differently, I accept His invitation to Love, then I have turned my will toward God and have eternal life. When I decline His invitation, and turn instead to my own fears and desires, judging, selfishness, not loving, I turn away from God and am 'in' hell. My own state of nearness to God varies all the time.


The Kingdom of God is 'now' and 'not yet.' It is inaugerated, but awaits completion. I participate in it, and I await it in Hope.

[dauer]

luna,

if I may perhaps rephrase what you've said to help Nick understand, and please correct me if I'm wrong, heaven and hell are states you believe one can be in on earth, based on their relationship with God, but you also hope and maybe even trust/have faith, in something waiting for you after this life also, thatt you are unwilling to try and define by too many rules and delineations. Is that about right or am I a little off?

[Nick the Pilot]

Luna,

Thank you for helping me understand. I appreciate your effort and kindliness in explaining this to me.