eternal life - Page 3

lunamoth · 03-25-2005, 10:43 PM

Dear didymus, I think I do understand where you are coming from. You are talking about the fact that everyone "good" is "saved" as defined by "not going to hell when one dies." And you are distinguishing it from the establishment of the Kingdom of God right here on earth, which will be accomplished by following Christ.

Am I getting warmer?

lunamoth

didymus · 03-25-2005, 11:12 PM

[quote=lunamoth]Dear didymus,

I'm getting confused by your distinction between Kingdom of God and eternal life. Please correct me, you say:

Kingdom of God = right here and now, starting with a "born again" experience

eternal life = after earthly life and earned by not breaking the 10 commandments, nothing to do with the Kingdom of God

Well, I guess I don't agree with this distinction. I do think the Kingdom of God is right here and now, Real all the time, evident to us in glimpses, to be completed when Christ returns in glory.

As for a "born again" experience, I do not think one has to "feel something transcendent" to be born again.

Hi Luna, yes, i think Jesus made a clear distinction between eternal life and kingdom of heaven in his statement to follow the commandments. Until jesus was questioned further by the man he said nothing of the kingdom of God and what he can do to enter it. Jesus' answer to eternal life was follow the commandments.

In John 3:3 Jesus said," in order to see the kingdom of God one must be born again." This is clearly present tense, not after death but here and now. I tied this comment in (among others I have read of kingdom of god)with his statement to sell all belongings and give to the poor. These are acts that one would not do unless thoroughly convicted by God. People with such strong convictions usually talk of a born again experience. See what I am saying?

lunamoth · 03-25-2005, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by didymus

Do you acknowledge that Jesus said, "follow the commandments to inherit eternal life'? Yes or no?

Hi didymus, I think what I was responding to earlier about this post is it is like saying "just dig through the core of the earth with a teaspoon and you'll get to China."

Yes, we all strive to keep the commandments, but no one keeps them perfectly. If keeping the commandments perfectly, and not just "pretty close," were the requirement then no one would inherit eternal life. Whatever that means.

peace,
lunamoth

didymus · 03-25-2005, 11:28 PM

Luna, you lost me on that one.

Can you answer yes or no the question , did Jesus say '"obey the commandments", to inherit eternal life?

There is no reason to read further into this than you are doing.

lunamoth · 03-26-2005, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by didymus

Luna, you lost me on that one.

Can you answer yes or no the question , did Jesus say '"obey the commandments", to inherit eternal life?

There is no reason to read further into this than you are doing.

Dear didymus, this is getting confusing isn't it!

I thought I already answered this question.

first layer response, no, Jesus did not say the quote as you state it above verbatim.

second layer response:

lawyer: did you see the man enter the store with a gun
witness: yes, but...
lawyer: just answer the question, did you see the man go into the store with a gun
witness: yes, but he...
lawyer: yes or no!
witness: yes

third layer of response: reflecting on the whole passage:

Quote:

The Rich Young Man

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good–except God alone. 19You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.’[d]”

20“Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”

24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is[e] to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

26The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, “Who then can be saved?”

27Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”

28Peter said to him, “We have left everything to follow you!”

29“I tell you the truth,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields–and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life. 31But many who are first will be last, and the last first.” (Mark 10, NIV)

The Kingdom of God starts now and continues in the age to come, eternal life. A continuum, starting whenever and wherever you are. And one must give up everything to enter/inherit it. And with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

It's a very simple answer.

peace,
lunamoth

didymus · 03-26-2005, 12:42 AM

Yes it is simple. You are taking 2 parts of the conversation that Jesus had with the rich man and combining them.

1st part, the man asks "how do I inherit eternal life?" Jesus answers,"obey the commandments." This was Jesus' answer to the man's question. Jesus said nothing more than this until questioned again. Do you see this? The man had eternal; life already according to Jesus because he said he obeyed the commandments.

2nd part, Man states ,"but I already do that"

Jesus gives another answer, "one thing you lack, Go sell everything you have and give it to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. then come follow me." (also see Luke 12:32-34)

Now he is talking of treasure in heaven although he speaks in the present tense.

the man is sad because he is rich. Jesus comments that it is very difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

Jesus is referring to 2 different things here. Eternal life and Kingdom of God.

Quahom1 · 03-26-2005, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by didymus

Yes it is simple. You are taking 2 parts of the conversation that Jesus had with the rich man and combining them.

1st part, the man asks "how do I inherit eternal life?" Jesus answers,"obey the commandments." This was Jesus' answer to the man's question. Jesus said nothing more than this until questioned again. Do you see this? The man had eternal; life already according to Jesus because he said he obeyed the commandments.

2nd part, Man states ,"but I already do that"

Jesus gives another answer, "one thing you lack, Go sell everything you have and give it to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. then come follow me." (also see Luke 12:32-34)

Now he is talking of treasure in heaven although he speaks in the present tense.

the man is sad because he is rich. Jesus comments that it is very difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

Jesus is referring to 2 different things here. Eternal life and Kingdom of God.

No, Jesus was waiting for the other shoe to drop...see the rich man was not satisfied with the answer, and knew there was something more. So Jesus waited for what was about to come from the rich man who truly wanted to know. Jesus told him and the rich man's eyes and heart fell. Jesus said you see how hard it is with much (in life) to let go? Jesus is referring to the same thought that the rich man originally posed..."How do I?"

v/r

Q

didymus · 03-26-2005, 01:07 AM

Q- he was waiting for the other shoe to drop?! Where do you get that from? I'll give you that one if you admit that it is pure speculation on your part. My theory is connected to what Jesus said. I am not speculating or interpreting anything here.

Quahom1 · 03-26-2005, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by didymus

Q- he was waiting for the other shoe to drop?! Where do you get that from? I'll give you that one if you admit that it is pure speculation on your part. My theory is connected to what Jesus said. I am not speculating or interpreting anything here.

Sure it is, based on personal experience Did. How many times has someone asked a question and you answered it completely, but without embellishment, knowing it would only cause the asker, to ask another question? The rich man wanted more than just eternal life (which he got the answer to that part of his question answered in whole). He wanted more, but the cost to him was more than he was ready to accept (at that time, which is another speculation, since we do not know what ever happened to that rich man once he left, saddened).

Here is another speculation, based on the rich man's dissapointment, I think he thought he could have his cake and eat it too.

But then I am speculating, and live much of my Christian life based on speculation (read that as it works for me...)

v/r

Q

didymus · 03-26-2005, 02:02 AM

Now I agree with you. He was looking for more than just eternal life in the future. he wanted something now not just 20-30 40 years away. He wasn't being fulfilled as much as he would have liked by just obeying the commandments. Jesus offered him more than eternal life, he offered him heaven on earth, the kingdom of God.

Quahom1 · 03-26-2005, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by didymus

Now I agree with you. He was looking for more than just eternal life in the future. he wanted something now not just 20-30 40 years away. He wasn't being fulfilled as much as he would have liked by just obeying the commandments. Jesus offered him more than eternal life, he offered him heaven on earth, the kingdom of God.

But Heaven on earth would cost him the pennies he'd earned...yeah how hard it is to see the "gold" being offered for the pennies one has. However, you are asking people to see beyond what they are currently capable of...that isn't something that may fly with all.

That kind of thinking takes time (most likely a life time). You are also implying that one must trust completely in Christ while healthy and alive and well...found that yet? I think with few exceptions, not likely...

v/r

Q

Faithfulservant · 03-26-2005, 10:24 AM

Yes we are to obey the commandments to inherit eternal life.. no this is not possible.. with Jesus it is possible because he died on the cross so our sins could be forgiven.. so the sin debt could be paid. Jesus is the ONLY way.. We can never be "good" enough.

Im having a really hard time with your questions and your posts didymus.. you come across as being highly confrontational and rude. I find it disrespectful and extremely unpleasant. Why would you want to post on a forum in which you have nothing but contempt for the beliefs and the believers? You can say that you do not feel this way but im willing to bet that a few others would agree with me.

didymus · 03-26-2005, 07:10 PM

Faithful, I am debating a point of interpretation here. I do believe. I also have been led to read the Bible in a way that is considered unorthodox by many here. You see I take what Jesus said with the upmost sincerity. I do not discount one thing he said. I am seeing different interpretations in what he said. Noone can take this away from me. If I come across as rude it truly isn't my intention. Maybe what you sense is frustration on my part because I am excited about what I read and I haven't found anybody yet who has siad, " gee, I never saw it that way before ", or "wow, maybe Jesus did mean that when he said such and such."

Are you familiar with the reformation? Martin Luther took the scriptures out of the hands of the church and advocated personal interpretation and meditation on scriptures by the people. That is all I am doing. But if I see something that doesn't match, such as my discussion of John the Baptist in the 4 gospels I am not afraid to point it out.

lunamoth · 03-26-2005, 08:16 PM

Hi didymus,

I'm not interested in debating this issue about the distinction between the Kingdom of God and eternal life that you draw from the passage under discussion. By debating I mean going at each other with verse after verse and logic upon logic trying to pound the other into submission. No, let's not do that.

However, you are trying to share your insight with us and I, for one, am interested in trying to understand what that is. You see this distinction and now what I am wondering is what comfort you draw from this and where you are going with this line of thought.

I'm not trying to frustrate you and you don't need to respond. By the way I wanted to thank you for the chance to think more deeply about this passage.

peace,
lunamoth

didymus · 03-26-2005, 08:29 PM

Luna, for me this is an attempt to go deeper into the meaning of the things Jesus spoke of. Until 2 days ago I never noticed that Jesus spoke so strongly of the Kingdom being here on earth. I had previously taken it as a futuristic event at the end of the ages only. I'm not saying that this isn't also an interpretation of that, but I do see that Jesus spoke of the kingdom inmore of a present tense.

For me it was a revelation to read Jesus' answer regarding the man's question of eternal life. When I read that it blew me away. It was simple and to the point. This propelled me further to study what other things Jesus said that I have missed over the years. Taking only the verses about the kingdom and focusing on them in their whole context has illuminated my understanding and I have found great peace as a result of it.