Esoterism and esoterica

[InLove]

Hi Again Nick, Snoopy, and Everyone Reading

I suppose that the best thing I can do for the moment is to go ahead and re-post what I posted earlier, which has mysteriously disappeared. Maybe it has to do with the recent server changes. But Nick's last post on the subjects being discussed was in response to a two-part post which I still have a copy of in my files. The thread will make much more sense to the readers if everything that was originally posted is available. So, if no one minds, I'll go ahead and do that now.

Also, Snoop--I am going ahead and recreating my very short response to your post as well, since I have a feeling that the lost posts are not going to be restored any time soon, if at all.

After I put these posts back up, I will also copy Nick's response afterwards, just so that the order of the conversation makes sense.

Then it may take a while for me to respond to that--first of all, I think I will wait until whatever problems are going on have been resolved.

I hope that this is a good solution, and doesn't cause more confusion than has already happened!

InPeace,
InLove

[InLove]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

- The poet Rumsfeld.

Oh dear. (Wrings hands and apologizes profusely.)

(Okay, that one was easy to recreate from memory, lol--)

InPeace,
InLove

[InLove]

Here is a copy of the first part of my original two-part post from this afternoon, August 20th:

Originally Posted by Nick

I remember a lifetime in Japan as a coolie. (This, no doubt, is why my ability to speak Japanese is so good. What else can explain such an ability?) There was also the time I was a monk in Tibet. By far my most memorable reincarnation was way out in the western Chinese desert as a roaming nomad. Now that was a hard life.

Do you think that your more difficult lives are the ones more easily remembered?

Originally Posted by Nick

The ideas of reincarnation and karma go hand in hand. I cannot see how karma and the forgiveness of sins can fit into the same belief system.

I can. But I can understand why many people do not, and that is okay. There is no need for me to convert anyone to my own way of thinking. But just out of curiousity on my part, since we have discussed what I think karma is, and you agreed that my interpretation was acceptable in your view, maybe it would help me understand more about your thoughts if you told me what you think “sin” means. I realize it may not be a part of your belief system, but do you have a definition that you would be willing to reference?

Originally Posted by Nick

According to my belief system, Heaven is just an illusion we create for ourselves, so we can recuperate from time on Earth.

By illusion, do you mean that we make up our own ideas about what Heaven is? What do you call this recuperation time? Where is it and how is this recuperation time spent?

Originally Posted by Nick

The ability to take on larger-than-normal amounts of bad karma in a particular lifetime is a key part of my belief system.

So there are those who have done this and it has led them to enter Nirvana? And there are those who have done this, but who have willingly held themselves back from Nirvana for the sake of others? Am I understanding you correctly?

Originally Posted by Nick

(1) I believe this is something everyone will choose to do (in this lifetime or a subsequent one), before they reach Nirvana.

Will it be in part due to actions of others who have shown the way?

Originally Posted by Nick

(2) Some people think performing self-mortification will achieve the same effect. It will not.

I totally agree.

Originally Posted by Nick

(3) One of the key points of my belief system is that a person must get rid of all their bad karma before entering Nirvana. The way I see it, there can be no other way.

Must everyone achieve this in exactly the same way?

Originally Posted by Nick

What is eternal Hell to you?

While there are some Christians who subscribe to the idea that there is a literal firepit to which those individuals who “reject Christ” will be forever condemned, I think you will find that the majority would describe “hell” in terms of “separation from God”. Like most, I relate the idea of Hell to the Jewish idea of “gehenna”, which was an historical trash heap outside the walls of Jerusalem into which refuse was taken (perhaps it was also burned-not sure). There is actually quite a bit of reasonable evidence which points to translation boo-boos and even pop-sensationalism on the part of Christian interpretation, and that the early Christian writers were more in tune with the Jewish meaning. Personally, I tend to think that there may be parts of each and every one of us that could wind up in that proverbial dump—those parts that reject, rebel, or just plain miss the mark when it comes to the Wisdom of Love. I know I am not the only Christian who leans toward this interpretation, but I also realize that it is probably a minority viewpoint.

Originally Posted by Nick

You lost me on this one. A person merely needs to accept Jesus as their personal savior, and they are guaranteed a place in eternal Heaven -- is this not the Christian teaching?

Many a Christian uses this terminology. I used to. I don’t anymore because I do find it lacking to a certain extent. For me, to “accept Christ” means to allow one’s self to acknowledge the possibility that the Source of All Being (“God”, if one prefers) is actually willing to provide us with the means to understand our own shortcomings and do something about them. (This includes overcoming death.) It is a starting place from which one may learn and grow. Is it a guarantee that at least part of one’s spirit may continue on? Actually, yes—that is part of the promise. If I am willing to trust that this will happen, then so is “God”, and “He” will not let me fall into separation from “Him” forever. But it cannot just be lip service—and I think this is what confuses so many people about Christianity. Gandhi touched on a bit of truth when he talked about liking Christ but not Christians—what I am sure he meant was that in his observance, many people who claimed salvation through Christ did not seem very Christ-like at all. If I had been in Gandhi’s sandals, I’m sure I would have said the same thing. The fact is that Gandhi was face-to-face with a political machine which paid lip service to Christ but often exhibited nothing of the Christ heart. Of course, it wasn’t just the Christians with whom he had a beef. He nearly starved himself in an appeal to the Hindus and the Muslims to stop hating each other and get on with the business of living in peace together. So my guess is that even though he did not use the terminology “personal Savior”, he and Jesus of Nazareth would have understood each other very well. And while these are my own thoughts on the matter, I am certain I am not the only Christian who seriously considers them.

Originally Posted by Nick

I believe Christianity teaches the forgiveness of sin. If a person can commit a crime and then be forgiven, then they escape responsibility. (Karma allows no such escaping of responsibility.) Is this how you see the Christian teaching?

No. In fact, Christianity calls for an accounting, one way or another. It would be impossible for me to agree with every theological concept in the Christian religion, because they are (or at least appear to be) at times quite opposed to one another. However, I will say that by focusing on what Jesus taught and did according to the Gospels, we may better understand the concept of mercy. In order to truly understand mercy, then I think one has to be willing to acknowledge its existence. How can one know the value of forgiveness if one is unwilling or unable to receive it?

Negative karma is pretty sticky stuff, right? According to universal principles, it doesn’t just go away without some action being taken to reverse it. If I forgive someone for a crime he or she committed against me, does that affect them or just me? I realize you may not agree, but I think that it affects both. I think that what I do affects you and vice versa. That’s because I believe we are all interconnected—and not just us, but all things. I believe that we can indeed be advocates for one another in the big scheme, and that the more we learn to forgive one another, the more we are forgiven. I believe that there are Masters who do for the sake of others whatever it is that they—or we--have not yet learned to do for ourselves—even if it is only to stick around or step forth on our behalf.

I see Jesus of Nazareth as my Master Teacher. And I see him as available to anyone. Is He the only one? Well, He is certainly unique. Has He come to us in other forms? I don’t know. I am cautioned in the Scriptures about believing that He is just out there in any old form, so I don’t dwell on that. It isn’t essential for me to know. On the other hand, I see nowhere in His teachings where He instructs me to condemn others in my heart. He didn’t go around saying that Buddha was a bad guy or that Judaism was evil or that when Muhammed came along that I was supposed to hate him or his followers. No, no, no! He did NOT! People who say these things or even harbor them in their thoughts are not acting in Love and Wisdom, and I do not think they are understanding the message of Christ. But these folks can be very determined, and they can get pretty noisy. In my opinion, they do hurt the reputation of Christ—but guess what? I believe God knows that many of them just don’t yet understand, and that yes, there is forgiveness still in the works. That does not mean there won’t be consequences, for we do take responsibility for our choices. But if one of those choices is to believe that we can be better than we are, and that Whoever God Is believes it too, then I am going to have to say that to accept the possibility of mercy on “His” part is a subscription to the Wisdom of Love.

It has been said the finite mind cannot comprehend the infinite. The idea of eternity gets into the infinite. Things have been going on for a long time, and will continue to go on for a long time -- we humans (Theosophy says) cannot comprehend what is at the end of those two extremes.

I would like to throw out this additional idea. In my belief system, this universe is only one universe in a long, long chain of universes. Think about how long this universe will last. (Gadzooks!) Now, think about conditions in, say, ten universes from now (More gadzooks!) According to your theory, in that future universe, people entering Hell today will still be in Hell at that time. Such an idea is unthinkable to me, and therefore is not a part of my belief sytem.


It is said we cannot comprehend infinity, but it sure is fun to try.

I agree—it is fun to try. And the concept of many universes is most definitely something I like to think about. Hopefully, after reading what I have written here so far about the concept of hell, you will see that my theory is not exactly what you may have thought it was. And that Christ may often be misrepresented not only by non-Christians, but by Christians as well. And, there very well may be a Christian brother or sister who will feel the need to respond in disagreement with my comments, but as I pointed out before, at least we aren’t just following one another around in blind agreement, a stereotype that I don’t think we always deserve.

Originally Posted by Nick

There are many similarities between Christianity and Theosophy, more than most people realize. Unfortunately, we tend to focus on the differences rather than the similarities.

I actually see lots of similarities, too. And I usually do try to focus on similarities between religions whenever possible. I have brought up some differences in this particular case, partly out of a desire to understand what you believe, and admittedly to do a little defending on the the part of Christians, because I feel it is important that people understand that most Christians really are not the mindless, uncaring, cloud-sitting lot that is so often caricatured (although cloud-sitting might be fun, and I wouldn’t like to completely count it out, lol!).

Originally Posted by Nick

According to Christianity, can an un-wise person do all the things Christianity advices, enter Heaven, and still be unwise? The way I see it, this is very much a possibility. (Such a method of entering Theosophical Nirvana is impossible.)

If you mean that it is necessary for a Christian to understand the detailed workings of the universe(es), or to be perfect all the time in order to enter Heaven, no—that is not necessary at all. It is the Wisdom of Love that is important. In other words, love God with all our hearts and others as ourselves. That’s actually a pretty tall order, but it is achievable without great intellectual prowess. And then, according to most Christians, we will have eternity to learn about everything there is to learn. No deadlines ever again! Not such a terrible way to look at things, in my opinion. In fact, it seems quite equitable—Christianity does teach that we all have our respective gifts. It may be that the ability to forgive is just as important, if not more so, than the ability to explain the workings of the universe. That what any given society might label as a learning-impaired person may actually know something a genius does not? It is fascinating and very positive, I’d say.

(Two-part post continued below)

[InLove]

Originally Posted by Nick

We are getting into two different topics here. (1) The absolute minimum required by Christianity to get into eternal Heaven. (2) Things we can do to "bring ourselves closer to God". All of the things you list here seem to be of (2) but not (1). My focus is on (1) and I choose to leave (2) to another discussion at another time.

I didn’t mean to go off your chosen topic. But actually, in Christianity, the two are so tied together that it is impossible to separate them.

Originally Posted by Nick

What, then, are the absolute minimum qualifications to get into the eternal Christian Heaven? I believe there is only one -- accept Jesus as your personal saviour. Am I wrong? (I suppose Baptism is also required, but I am not sure about that.)

I believe that the absolute minimum to get into the eternal Christian Heaven is what Jesus of Nazareth was recorded as saying: Love God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself. This is how the Christ responded to pretty much the same question in a different form when it was presented to Him by some of the religious authorities during His lifetime as Jesus of Nazareth. As for baptism—I personally do not believe that one must be ceremonially baptized with water, although it is desirable to do so simply as a witness. It is the baptism of the Holy Spirit which I believe to be important. Is this limited to Christians? Ouch—I may have to go dig out my big red “H” for heretic and wear it for saying so, but no, I don’t believe it is. I think the Holy Spirit is evident in the fruits of one’s life—and that comes back to whether or not we love God and love others. There is nothing that can keep us from the Love of God if we so choose—not even religion!

Originally Posted by Nick

Actually, I think this discussion is going quite well. You and I are showing our willingness to be open-minded with each other, and I am actually enjoying this. It is rare that a Christian and non-Christian like you and I have such a frank, open, positive, and educational discussion as this.

Thank you. I think so too. I do realize that some of what I said may sound a little like preaching. I hope you know that this is not what I am trying to do. It’s just kind of impossible to talk about our beliefs without, erm, well, saying what they are.

InPeace,
InLove

[InLove]

Okay, now here is Nick's response again. I just thought it would be appropriate to repost his comments. I am not using the quote feature for this, as Nick does not, and to do so for one of his posts would be confusing. So, the copy of your post, Nick:

InLove, thank you for the detailed, two-part post. I commend you on your diligence in maintaining this inter-religious discussion. There is great value in what you are doing. You asked,

"Do you think that your more difficult lives are the ones more easily remembered?"

--> No, I think it is more a matter of which ones are most important. It has also been said we do not remember many past lives, because we are not ready to face what we have been through.

"I cannot see how karma and the forgiveness of sins can fit into the same belief system. --> I can. But I can understand why many people do not, and that is okay."

--> How do both of them fit into your belief system?

"...if you told me what you think "sin" means. I realize it may not be a part of your belief system, but do you have a definition that you would be willing to reference?"

--> No, I do not. I was merely using the word as it is used in Christianity. In my system, there is no such thing as "sin".

"By illusion, do you mean that we make up our own ideas about what Heaven is?"

--> Yes. We know best what kind of recuperation we need, so we are allowed to construct an illusion that best gives us recuperation. One of the great things about this time is, we can go back, find a failure that occured in physical life, and re-create it in our "Heaven" so that, this time, it is a success.

"What do you call this recuperation time?"

--> It is technically referred to as Devachan.

"Where is it and how is this recuperation time spent?"

--> It is a commonly-held teaching of orthodox religions that Hell is geographically located below us, and Heaven is geographically located above us. As it turns out, some Theosophcial writers say this is correct.

"People find their own level on the astral plane, much in the same way as objects floating in the ocean do. This does not mean that they cannot rise and fall at will, but that if no special effort is made they come to their level and remain there. Astral matter gravitates towards the center of the earth just as physical matter does; both obey the same general laws." (The Inner Life, p. 156)

People of the lower astral sub-planes (Hell), then, generally reside below the surface of the Earth. The same is true of Heaven as a level relatively less-dense "astral" material that floats up to a level above the surface of the Earth. This explains the orthodox religious teaching of Hell being below us (and Heaven being above). (As parts of the Earth are of great heat and pressure, this is also another connection to the idea of Hell as a hot place.)

Regarding the idea of Heaven as an illusion, I would like to share the story of a man spending time near the top of the Heaven/Hell continuum (you would call it a high level within Purgatory). The important thing about this story is, the man built his house out of his imagination — it is not a physical house at all.

"He seemed to be living in a house that was just exactly the kind of house he used to picture in imagination as the ideal house he would like to have. Of course this was a pleasant kind of thought-form he had unconsciously created. He also said he was beginning to have a curious sort of feeling, as though he were getting lighter. It was quite a pleasant feeling, and he thought he had been told that it betokened some impending change that would involve his translation to some superior condition. His house was a country-house with gardens and flowers, grass and trees, though they did not seem to want any attending to. He spent a great deal of time in the garden, thinking pleasantly of bygone times, and visited by people he had known — his father and mother amongst them. The time just glided by. There was no night, no sense of being tired. He had no wants." (A. P. Sinnett, In the Next World, p. 58)

I have also heard of another man who actually built up an entire house in Purgatory, brick by brick. No one told him it was an illusion, and that he could have built the entire house in an instant.

"The ability to take on larger-than-normal amounts of bad karma in a particular lifetime is a key part of my belief system. --> So there are those who have done this and it has led them to enter Nirvana?"

--> Yes. I would correct your statement, and say it has accelerated their entry into Nirvana. According to my belief system, all of us will eventually enter Nirvana — some just sooner than others.

"And there are those who have done this, but who have willingly held themselves back from Nirvana for the sake of others? Am I understanding you correctly?"

--> Exactly. This is the greatest sacrifce anyone can make, and this is an important concept in present-day Mahayana Buddhism and Theosophy.

"I believe this is something everyone will choose to do (in this lifetime or a subsequent one), before they reach Nirvana. --> Will it be in part due to actions of others who have shown the way?"

--> I think my quote refers to the accelerating of our burning-off of bad karma, thereby accelerating our entry into Nirvana. Technically, the answer to your question is yes — There are those who will show the way, when we are ready.

"Must everyone [get rid of all their bad karma before entering Nirvana] in exactly the same way?"

--> No. It can be done in many ways. It does not matter how it is done, as long as it is done.

"While there are some Christians who subscribe to the idea that there is a literal firepit to which those individuals who "reject Christ" will be forever condemned, I think you will find that the majority would describe "hell" in terms of "separation from God"."

--> I find this marvelous, because I believe more in line with fundamental Christians. I have just heard one man describe his Hell as being in a thick, black, suffocating oil-like substance — a very unpleasent experience that seems to last for eternity.

"Like most, I relate the idea of Hell to the Jewish idea of "gehenna", which was an historical trash heap outside the walls of Jerusalem into which refuse was taken (perhaps it was also burned-not sure). There is actually quite a bit of reasonable evidence which points to translation boo-boos and even pop-sensationalism on the part of Christian interpretation, and that the early Christian writers were more in tune with the Jewish meaning."

--> Fascinating. Again, I must say I believe in a real Hell. (I merely say the circumstances that take us there are different than those explained in Christianity.)

"Is it a guarantee that at least part of one’s spirit may continue on? Actually, yes—that is part of the promise."

--> This sounds like I have already qualified to enter the Christian Heaven.

"...even though [Gandhi] did not use the terminology "personal Savior", he and Jesus of Nazareth would have understood each other very well."

--> So you think Gandhi is not in Hell?

"And while these are my own thoughts on the matter, I am certain I am not the only Christian who seriously considers them."

--> I hope not! The very purposes of these discussions is to get people to consider ideas they have not yet considered. (Theosophy is full of such ideas.)

"Christianity calls for an accounting, one way or another."

--> So Jesus does not have the power to forgive sins?

"It would be impossible for me to agree with every theological concept in the Christian religion...."

--> I am glad you do not. You take personal responsibility for your belief system, which is something most people do not do.

"... by focusing on what Jesus taught and did according to the Gospels, we may better understand the concept of mercy."

--> This sounds similar to the Theosophical and Buddhist concept of Compassion.

"How can one know the value of forgiveness if one is unwilling or unable to receive it?"

--> I can see a need for humans to forgive. I see no need for a God to forgive. Which type of forgiveness are you talking about?

"Negative karma is pretty sticky stuff, right?"

--> Yes, very much.

"According to universal principles, it doesn’t just go away without some action being taken to reverse it."

--> Exactly.

"If I forgive someone for a crime he or she committed against me, does that affect them or just me?"

--> It effects both of you. You are the biggest beneficiary, but the perpetrator also benefits, in that peace is restored.


I need to emphasize this point: We need to separate human forgiveness from karmic forgiveness. You can forgive (and you should), but karma does not. I see no reason to even think that karmic forgiveness happens.

"...I believe we are all interconnected—and not just us, but all things."

--> I do too. I believe we are more interconnected than you realize. We are very close to realizing our true interconnectedness, which is thet very definition of Nirvana. Nirvana is said to be a place when separateness ends. I become you, and you become me. I am very much looking forward to it.

"Is [Jesus] the only one? Well, He is certainly unique."

--> You are side-stepping the issue. Is Jesus is the only way?

"He didn’t go around saying that Buddha was a bad guy or that Judaism was evil or that when Muhammed came along that I was supposed to hate him or his followers. No, no, no! He did NOT!"

--> You are describing Christians that I will not even talk to.

"In my opinion, they do hurt the reputation of Christ—but guess what? I believe God knows that many of them just don’t yet understand, and that yes, there is forgiveness still in the works."

--> I guess we can just agree to disagree. I see no such forgiveness from bad karma, nor do I see a need for it, nor do I see any wisdom in it.

"...the possibility of mercy on "His" part is a subscription to the Wisdom of Love."

--> On the other hand, any "sin", no matter how small, causes disharmony in the entire universe. When the universe is thrown out of harmony, the possibility of me being allowed to put it back into harmony is a subscription to the Wisdom of Love."

"Hopefully, after reading what I have written here so far about the concept of hell, you will see that my theory is not exactly what you may have thought it was."

--> I see Hell as being just as terrible as they say. I just do not see it as eternal.

"...I feel it is important that people understand that most Christians really are not the mindless, uncaring, cloud-sitting lot that is so often caricatured (although cloud-sitting might be fun, and I wouldn’t like to completely count it out, lol!)."

--> It is true that many of my fellow non-Christians have a very bad opinion of Christianity, and by extention, all Christians. Sadly, I must say they are justified in their negative feelings.

"...according to most Christians, we will have eternity to learn about everything there is to learn. No deadlines ever again!"

--> That is an interesting difference between your and my belief system. I see us facing deadlines for many universes to come. (I see the continual chances to improve ourselves, and continually-required benchmarks as a good thing, not a bad thing, as you do.)

"I believe that the absolute minimum to get into the eternal Christian Heaven is what Jesus of Nazareth was recorded as saying: Love God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself."

--> Most Theosophists accept the idea of a Diety of the universe but reject the idea of an Almighty God. (The difference may seem trivial, but it is an important one.) Your definition, then, condemns all Theosophists and Buddhists to Hell. That is unfortunate.

"It is the baptism of the Holy Spirit which I believe to be important. Is this limited to Christians? Ouch—I may have to go dig out my big red "H" for heretic and wear it for saying so, but no, I don’t believe it is."

--> I believe this Baptism idea came from an Ancient Wisdom teaching that has been so turned around over the centuries that it is now misleading and corrupted. However, I think you and I have more in common regarding this topic than you realize.

"I do realize that some of what I said may sound a little like preaching. I hope you know that this is not what I am trying to do. It’s just kind of impossible to talk about our beliefs without, erm, well, saying what they are."

--> That is OK. This is called celebrating our differences. As long as it is done in a positive way, it is a good thing.


------------------------

Comment added by InLove: I hope all this re-posting helps to clarify things after the disappearance of some posts. I will respond as soon as possible to this last one of yours, Nick. (Now, if all of the posts show back up, I know it is really going to look crazy, but I have done the best I knew how to do to restore the thread to its most recent contribution.) If all my work here disappears again, then I think I will just take a break until things are better.

[Nick the Pilot]

InLove,

This is crazy, with all the posts disappearing and reappearing. (Let's see if this post disappears....)

[InLove]

LOL. It is still there so far, Nick. Maybe all is well now.

By the way, I thought I would add: For anyone still interested in trying to make sense of this conversation, if you read up through page 8, post #117, and then skip to this page (9), post #122, then it should all become clearer--not like it was the simplest of subjects we were discussing anyway, right?

Well, I think I'll go lie down now. I'll be writing again soon.

InPeace,
InLove

[Nick the Pilot]

InLove,

I see my mystery post has now reappeared. (I posted it two or three times, so the fact that only one has reappeared is still a problem.)


I have one more reaction to your post. You said,

"I believe that the absolute minimum to get into the eternal Christian Heaven is what Jesus of Nazareth was recorded as saying: Love God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself."

--> I am reminded of Mr. Atta, the head Sept 11th hijacker. (Mr. Atta actually flew one of the hijacked planes, and died in the process.) Thanks to a psychic reading, I was able to check and see how Mr. Atta is doing.

His Judgement did not go well. (He was charged with murdering all those people, and he was told he has to atone for what he has done.) The sad thing is, he never saw it coming. (He was quite stunned and unhappy when he received his sentence.) He fits your minimum criteria listed above, in that he really thought he was doing the work of God, and he really thought he was helping the people he killed. Fortunately, my belief system says divine forgiveness does not happen, and he will pay back everything he did.

To be fair, I believe Atta will eventually spend time in Heaven, due to his devotion to God. (I see Heaven as temporary, not permanent, so there is no reason this cannot happen.) Once he pays back his debt (which will take a long, long time), I see no reason for him to be denied a little time in Heaven.

Mr. Atta is the perfect example of why your system does not work for me. Mr. Atta either goes to Heaven or Hell for eternity? I see no reason for him to be sent to only one, and be denied the other.

I am not sure whether you see Mr. Atta going to Heaven or Hell. I see him as spending time in both (although he may end up in Avichi, which is much worse than Hell.) To me, this sounds like a fair system.

[InLove]

Hi Nick--just a quick note--

I don't see any posts that have reappeared, save the ones that I re-posted, including your own (which did not disappear, but I resubmitted your thoughts so that the sequence of commentary was like the original, so as to make more sense to the reader(s). The problem, as Brian has explained in the feedback forum, is that the server changes implemented over the past few days did not work out so well. Any posts that were lost are probably lost for good. That is why I put my disappearing posts back up (as I just happened to have a copy because they were created in a Word document first, and I simply had not deleted them from my files yet). If you had a post that you wrote that disappeared, I was not aware of it. Maybe this helps to clear things up a bit?

Oh, and just to let you know--I have read your comments and I will answer as soon as I have time to make a decent and hopefully well written response. Also, as I said before, I decided that maybe it would be a good idea to wait a little while to make sure things have indeed become more stable in regard to the unfortunate glitches.

InPeace,
InLove

[InLove]

This is one reason I was hoping you might comment on your ideas regarding the meaning of “sin”. I know that lots and lots of people do not agree with me, but to me, “sin” and negative karma are not very different from one another. The simplest way of looking at “sin” is “wrong or unwise action”, and the term is always associated with consequences. Every Christian theological concept that I know of requires that the consequences of sin be satisfied. Does this explanation help answer your question? I can try and say more, if you like.

Originally Posted by NIck

It is a commonly-held teaching of orthodox religions that Hell is geographically located below us, and Heaven is geographically located above us. As it turns out, some Theosophcial writers say this is correct.

In Christianity, the literal interpretation of a geographical hell below us gained wide acceptance during the Middle Ages, Renaissance, and continues to this day for many denominations. But before this, it was not as prevalent, as early Christian understanding was more along the lines of the Jewish concept. However, the idea that heaven is“above” us was around from Christian beginnings—I would say because since the culture(s) into which the religion was born, did not yet understand that the world was round, or that there was even our tiny solar system to consider, so therefore had no other frame of reference at the time.

Originally Posted by NIck

People of the lower astral sub-planes (Hell), then, generally reside below the surface of the Earth. The same is true of Heaven as a level relatively less-dense "astral" material that floats up to a level above the surface of the Earth. This explains the orthodox religious teaching of Hell being below us (and Heaven being above). (As parts of the Earth are of great heat and pressure, this is also another connection to the idea of Hell as a hot place.)

So, in Theosophy, “astral” material is what makes up our non-physical element? Is this the same as “the spirit” or perhaps “the soul” in other religions, such as Christianity?

Originally Posted by Nick

Again, I must say I believe in a real Hell.

I should probably clarify that I don’t mean hell is not real. I just don’t necessarily define it in the same way you do. To be separated from the Light of Love and Life would constitute a very real and desolate situation.

By the way, according to Theosophy, if we create our own Heaven, do we also create our own Hell?

Originally Posted by Nick

So you think Gandhi is not in Hell?

I have to smile—I sure did think I had already answered that several times. No, I do not think Gandhi is in Hell. It would not be up to me to decide, anyway, but no, I do not believe he is. And I know for sure there are many other Christians who feel the same way! I never realized how much influence the people who would condemn Gandhi have over the way the rest of the world views Christian thought. <sigh>

In Christianity, Christ is advocate at the time of accounting. And as I said before, it cannot be saying one thing and purposely doing another. Christ cannot advocate simple lip service—He knows the heart. Out of the what I would call the “Christ heart” will always proceed the fruit of His Spirit.

According to Christianity, Christ’s work regarding the forgiveness of sins is already finished. It is just a matter of whether one wants accept that work. The fruits of one’s life is the evidence of whether one accepts this work—it isn’t something that I believe is as easy to reject as a lot of people think.

Originally Posted by Nick

You take personal responsibility for your belief system, which is something most people do not do.

Thank you for that observation. Actually maybe there are more people concerned with personal responsibility for their beliefs than is always evident to our immediate perception. I could be wrong, but I still hold forth this hope, even in the midst of all the apparent confusion. Somewhere underneath it all is the original order, and somehow I just know it is still being moved to perfection.

I knew it was similar to the Buddhist concept. I am glad to find out that it also has something in common with Theosophy.

Originally Posted by Nick

I can see a need for humans to forgive. I see no need for a God to forgive. Which type of forgiveness are you talking about?

Both, actually. We are all connected. I do not see how I can believe that “God” is Love, and not accept that “He” would be most willing to forgive. It just wouldn’t make any sense to me.

Originally Posted by Nick

I need to emphasize this point: We need to separate human forgiveness from karmic forgiveness. You can forgive (and you should), but karma does not. I see no reason to even think that karmic forgiveness happens.

I agree that karma can forgive nothing. Just as sin or repentence or even blessing cannot. I am not saying that these are not powerful things, but I’d say that only beings have the power to forgive.

Nick, I’d like to address the following: You quoted my own words here:
"Is [Jesus] the only one? Well, He is certainly unique."
Then you said: "You are side-stepping the issue. Is Jesus is the only way?"

LOL. Well, I know things have been confusing with all the technical problems lately, but I fail to see how I could be sidestepping my own question. (There is a whole paragraph connected to that short answer you quoted from me, by the way.) However, I will make another attempt to answer you. First of all, I was saying in my answer that I did not know if Jesus was the only Master. If you read it again, I think you will see that. But now you are asking me if Jesus is the only way. The best answer I know how to give you honestly is that I believe in the possibility that the Christ is the only way—but I want to reiterate that I do not limit the Christ. I do not know how else the Christ works or manifests “Himself”. I do not dare place any limits on this, and so while I cannot say I agree for certain with any old description or explanation out there, neither can I dismiss the possibility of anything at all. I hope my answer helps, and does not appear as another “sidestep” to you.

Originally Posted by InLove

He didn’t go around saying that Buddha was a bad guy or that Judaism was evil or that when Muhammed came along that I was supposed to hate him or his followers. No, no, no! He did NOT!

Originally Posted by Nick

You are describing Christians that I will not even talk to.

Well, while I understand why you wouldn’t, it is still sad that people draw lines to the point where they cut off communication with each other. I know it has to happen sometimes, but it sure doesn’t allow for much progress. I can see that you try to keep the lines open whenever possible.

Wow. Nice answer! Yes, we can all do our part.

Originally Posted by Nick

I see Hell as being just as terrible as they say. I just do not see it as eternal.

I see hell as terrible, too. And it may surprise you that I hold out hope that it is not eternal in the sense that most people mean. The only thing about hell that I would wish to be eternal is that if that which creates misery and keeps us all apart and away from Love is going to be gone forever—then I would not mind. I am not talking about individual people—I am talking about, oh—I don’t know how to describe it other than “evil”. Things like hatred and bigotry and excruciating pain and sorrow and loss….those things. If there is something in my spirit that causes these things upon this earth, then I would gladly send it to hell myself. But I believe the good things in all of us should go on….and on…..and on….

Originally Posted by Nick

It is true that many of my fellow non-Christians have a very bad opinion of Christianity, and by extention, all Christians. Sadly, I must say they are justified in their negative feelings.

I’m sure you mean that they are justified in their negative feelings against some Christians. I hope that is what you mean, and not that they are justified in associating all Christians with these negative judgements simply by default. In a secular court of law, that would constitute guilt by association, would it not? Is that fair in this case? Maybe when you are speaking with non-Christians who have been hurt in this way, you will take time to tell them that you have met some Christians now that aren’t quite the way they might think? Do they paint every group of people with such a broad stroke of the brush? Why only Christians? Christians are individuals just like everyone else. You will tell them, won’t you?

Originally Posted by Nick

That is an interesting difference between your and my belief system. I see us facing deadlines for many universes to come. (I see the continual chances to improve ourselves, and continually-required benchmarks as a good thing, not a bad thing, as you do.)

Oh, that comment was probably just the editor coming out in me. I don’t like deadlines very much. I like time. I like to linger. But, yeah—when one project is over, I do enjoy a fresh start. I tend to speak metaphorically and symbolically. I don’t see opportunity as a bad thing—you can ask anyone right here in C-R about that!

Oh dear—I do not understand your reaction at all! I thought I had done my best to show you that my definition of “God” is quite flexible. Have I not repeatedly put the terms “God” and “He” in quotation marks and said things like “no matter how you choose to describe Him” and even used other terms, like “The Source of All Being” and emphasized that I believe we are all connected? I think if you scroll back in our conversation, this is what you will find. I know my Buddhist friends would extremely surprised at your conclusion that my belief condemns them to hell! I love ya, Nick, but seriously—I do not know where you got that one! Maybe the things I am saying to you are just so unexpected that you don’t really see them? Are you looking for the negative aspect?

Okay—I hope you aren’t offended by what I just typed here. I know you do have a great sense of humor, and I know that sometimes mine seems a bit strange, so since I have learned that you do believe we can forgive one another, then forgive me if that comment was out of line or anything. It is just that if I don’t laugh or smile at some of what people think I have said, then I would cry and be very sad.

I didn’t address every single comment, but I just picked up on the ones to which I felt moved to respond. And I appreciated the references, as well. Just wanted you to know that. If I missed something that you wanted me to supply a response for, just let me know and I will give it the old college try. Still enjoying the exchange—thank you!

Edited to add: I just realized I have only addressed your post-before-last. I will respond to the last one as soon as I can.

InPeace,
InLove

[Nick the Pilot]

InLove, you said,

"The simplest way of looking at “sin” is “wrong or unwise action”, and the term is always associated with consequences."

--> I do not see consequences, when those consequences can be forgiven. (Am I confusing you on this one?)

"Every Christian theological concept that I know of requires that the consequences of sin be satisfied. Does this explanation help answer your question? I can try and say more, if you like."

--> Actually, it does not. To me, consequences are consequences, and divine forgiveness is divine forgiveness. I just do not see a middle ground.

"In Christianity, the literal interpretation of a geographical hell below us gained wide acceptance during the Middle Ages, Renaissance, and continues to this day for many denominations. But before this, it was not as prevalent, as early Christian understanding was more along the lines of the Jewish concept."

--> It is fascinating that, on this topic, Christianity is moving in one direction, and Theosophy is moving in quite the opposite. (I must add that there are Theosophists who agree with the Christian version you have written, and disagree with my version.)

"However, the idea that heaven is“above” us was around from Christian beginnings—I would say because since the culture(s) into which the religion was born, did not yet understand that the world was round, or that there was even our tiny solar system to consider, so therefore had no other frame of reference at the time."

--> This, too, is fascinating. Theosophy sees "Heaven" as a globe that is co-located with the physical Earth. Therefore, seeing the earth as flat or spherical does not change the Theosophical concept.

"By the way, according to Theosophy, if we create our own Heaven, do we also create our own Hell?"

--> We do, but in an indirect way, not a direct way as we do in Heaven. The conditions in Hell are indirectly created by the bad things we did in life. For example, I remember the story of one lady (who had overindulged in sensuality) who was constantly taunted in Hell by naked figures, only to see the figures withdraw when she reached out to touch them. (This repeated activity only increased her lust, which just kept making the situation worse and worse.) Another example was a man who had spent his life building a financial empire. In the afterlife, there was no way he could continue building a financial empire, but his desire to do so remained unchanged. He would try to put together all sorts of financial schemes, only to watch them fall apart before his eyes. Hell, then, is something we create, but in an indirect way, not in a direct way like we create Heaven for ourselves.

The naked figures and the schemes were thought-forms being produced by each person's own subconscious. The solution to the problem was to have them stop creating these thought-forms (something that is difficult to do).

"I never realized how much influence the people who would condemn Gandhi have over the way the rest of the world views Christian thought. <sigh>"

--> Well, I guess that is the benefit of these discussions -- you get to see how some non-Christians view Christians. (I believe such information is usually not available to Christians.) These ideas may not be comforting, but it is informative. There is a great deal of animosity out there against Christians, an animosity that is usually hidden.

"So Jesus does not have the power to forgive sins? --> In Christianity, Christ is advocate at the time of accounting. And as I said before, it cannot be saying one thing and purposely doing another. Christ cannot advocate simple lip service—He knows the heart. Out of the what I would call the “Christ heart” will always proceed the fruit of His Spirit. According to Christianity, Christ’s work regarding the forgiveness of sins is already finished. It is just a matter of whether one wants accept that work. The fruits of one’s life is the evidence of whether one accepts this work—it isn’t something that I believe is as easy to reject as a lot of people think."

--> I am sorry, I do not see an answer in your quote. I think I got a no answer.

"Thank you for that observation. Actually maybe there are more people concerned with personal responsibility for their beliefs than is always evident to our immediate perception."

--> I am curious: Do you see why non-Christians say Christianity removes responsibility from its believers?

"I do not see how I can believe that “God” is Love, and not accept that “He” would be most willing to forgive. It just wouldn’t make any sense to me."

--> Well, I guess I just take the other way of looking at it. To me, I see no need for divine forgiveness. No need at all.

"But now you are asking me if Jesus is the only way."

--> This is a phrase we have heard from other Christians, so I just wanted to see how you felt about it.

"The best answer I know how to give you honestly is that I believe in the possibility that the Christ is the only way—but I want to reiterate that I do not limit the Christ. I do not know how else the Christ works or manifests “Himself”. I do not dare place any limits on this, and so while I cannot say I agree for certain with any old description or explanation out there, neither can I dismiss the possibility of anything at all. I hope my answer helps, and does not appear as another “sidestep” to you."

--> I guess we will just agree to disagree on this one.

"And it may surprise you that I hold out hope that it is not eternal in the sense that most people mean."

--> You see Hell as temporary?

"The only thing about hell that I would wish to be eternal is that if that which creates misery and keeps us all apart and away from Love is going to be gone forever—then I would not mind."

--> It seems we agree. In my belief system, the purpose of Hell is to burn out imperfections we pick up along the way. Once the imperfections are removed, the person is then free to go up to a higher level.

"If there is something in my spirit that causes these things upon this earth, then I would gladly send it to hell myself. But I believe the good things in all of us should go on….and on…..and on…."

--> You have described the Theosophical principle perfectly. We are composed of different principles. As lower principles become no longer necessary, they are discarded.

"I’m sure you mean that they are justified in their negative feelings against some Christians. I hope that is what you mean, and not that they are justified in associating all Christians with these negative judgements simply by default. In a secular court of law, that would constitute guilt by association, would it not?"

--> It would. I need to emphasize there are many non-Christians out there who truly fear Christians. Their fear is justified. Are they justified in fearing all Christians? No, but they usually do not have time to find out if someone is a good Christian or a bad Christian -- it is not worth the risk, so many people simply flee. I agree, it is an overgeneralization, but one that is created by a sense of self-preservation. Sure, we non-Christians know one particular Christian looking at books in a bookstore may be a good person, but many times it - is - just - not - worth - the - risk - to - find - out. You should listen to the sad discussions people have to go through, in trying to figure out how to deal with Christians. I am afraid you do not appreciate the severity of the problem.

"Is that fair in this case?"

--> Yes.

"Maybe when you are speaking with non-Christians who have been hurt in this way, you will take time to tell them that you have met some Christians now that aren’t quite the way they might think?"

--> I can see you have no idea the damage done by Christians to non-Christians.

"Do they paint every group of people with such a broad stroke of the brush?"

--> Only the ones they justifiably fear.

"Christians are individuals just like everyone else. You will tell them, won’t you?"

--> I usually do not. My job with these people to help them in the best way I can. When we are shot with an arrrow, we do not ask questions like, "Who shot the arrow? What kind of bow did they use?" We get the arrow out first, and try to close up the wound.

"Oh dear—I do not understand your reaction at all! I thought I had done my best to show you that my definition of “God” is quite flexible."

--> Do not worry, this is a typical exchange between a monotheist (you) and a non-monotheist (me).

"Have I not repeatedly put the terms “God” and “He” in quotation marks and said things like “no matter how you choose to describe Him” and even used other terms, like “The Source of All Being” and emphasized that I believe we are all connected?"

--> For some of us, moving "closer to God" (whatever God is) is just not a goal. I know it is difficult for you to understand, but that is just the way it is.

"Are you looking for the negative aspect?"

--> No. It is just that, your definition of moving "closer to God" (whatever God is) is just not a goal for us, including many Buddhists. By your definition, he who does not try to "move closer to God" is moving closer to Hell.

"Okay—I hope you aren’t offended by what I just typed here."

--> Not at all. I am asking you to consider ideas you have never considered before. I thank you for having come this far, deep into territory you probably have not been into before. The more you can understand the view of non-monotheists, the better communication will be for all of us. I see no ill-will in your posts. This has been a good, open, honest, & frank discussion of conflicting belief systems, and I see great value in what we are doing here.