Esoteric Christianity

[Rev Wayne]

Thanks, great to be here. I travel around and search for posting places that provide stimulation, I'm surprised I hadn't discovered this one before. My compliments, to whomever they should go, on what appears to be a well-regulated and interesting site.

To respond, I'm wondering just how much weight should be given to Lewis' use of "blaspheme" in this particular instance. The work cited is actually a poem, and probably has to be seen in its entirety to be fully appreciated--or fully understood, or even adequately contextualised, for that matter. It's a very short poem and for that reason citing very much of it at all would probably violate fair use, so I will post the link. I fully understand your comments, and perhaps if I read the remarks divorced from the context as I presented them, doubtless I would have had somewhat to say also. The link is:

christdot.org/ modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=5560

Apparently I have not posted enough and can't include links. Just remove the space from the above link and add h-t-t-p-:-/-/ in front of it

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Rev Wayne

Thanks, great to be here. I travel around and search for posting places that provide stimulation, I'm surprised I hadn't discovered this one before. My compliments, to whomever they should go, on what appears to be a well-regulated and interesting site.

To respond, I'm wondering just how much weight should be given to Lewis' use of "blaspheme" in this particular instance. The work cited is actually a poem, and probably has to be seen in its entirety to be fully appreciated--or fully understood, or even adequately contextualised, for that matter. It's a very short poem and for that reason citing very much of it at all would probably violate fair use, so I will post the link. I fully understand your comments, and perhaps if I read the remarks divorced from the context as I presented them, doubtless I would have had somewhat to say also. The link is:

christdot.org/ modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=5560

Apparently I have not posted enough and can't include links. Just remove the space from the above link and add h-t-t-p-:-/-/ in front of it

LOL, ten post minimum, four more to go... but please, consider your own thoughts as paramount to the exchanges made here. It is nice to reference past thoughts, but those of the present parties are much preferred.

Compliments/complaints or comments pertaining to this forum go to "I, Brian" who can be contacted Here . He is the owner/administrator of CR.

Once again Reverend, welcome to CR.

As for my opinion, Lewis is expressing a lament. Man is stupid and arrogant in expecting God to jump when he says so, prayer can be blasphemous, if used in the wrong context, or for the wrong purposes. I suppose that is what Lewis (and you) were pointing out...

my thoughts

v/r

Q

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Welcome to CR Reverend.

Blaspheme:

1 : to speak of or address with irreverence
2 : REVILE, ABUSE
intransitive verb : to utter blasphemy

The problem with that statement is that in order to "not" blaspheme God, we would have to stop praying to Him...in otherwords, to sin not, speak not.

On the other hand, did not Jesus specifically state that what so ever we do to the least of our brethren we do unto Him? This would imply that in order not to "blaspheme" God we would have to stop speaking with eathother, dealing with eachother, or helping eachother. And did He also not state that if we cause little children to stumble before the Lord, there would be "hell to pay"? (para)

Lewis, presents us with (it appears) a catch 22. Damned if we do and damned if we don't. I'm afraid I can not agree with Lewis' concept of reviling God by being ignorant of His true nature. There is no sin, in not knowing. Rather, the sin is in knowing what we do know, and not acting on it...

my thoughts, and once again welcome to CR

v/r

Q

Yet prayer is a learning experience. We will never know God unless we are willing to talk to Him. Sure, we are ignorant of who He is, but to shy away from prayer because we are afraid that we might misunderstand Him is missing the point. We come as children to God. But as we mature, we will put away childish things. The sin would be not to pray at all for sin is the absence of a relationship with God. How are we to know God if we don't relate to Him? "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." - John 17:3

[taijasi]

Rev. Wayne,

I'm with you on the almost colloquial use, we might say, of `blaspheme.' I think you could look at it two ways, and this helps us to keep perspective. Like the artist who attempts to paint a still life, no matter how well s/he does, the painting is still a painting. There is no way it can ever approach the reality! So in that sense, to even try - is this kind of blasphemy.

But of course, I can take some crayons, scratch out with a few colors on construction paper, and it will be leagues apart from what the great Masters have accomplished. By comparison, they have obviously approached the reality of the original scene (fruit in a bowl, whatever) much more closely. In that sense, they have honored the subject of their art in their effort!

In this way, then, I think our prayer honors God, and I do agree with Dondi and Quahom. The more effective it is, however, in drawing us closer to God, the more we may become aware of several things. For the Mystic, the experience may not so much be that she is praying to God, but that she is praying with God. For her, the boundaries dissolve, and the Divine Union is felt directly, as deep within her being as she is capable of going.

So it is more like the student learning to play an instrument by imitating her Master, and as long as she plays in harmony, she is on the right track. Not unless she is truly daft, or of course, exceptionally good, will she presume that her skill is as polished as the Master's. Her music, however, may still be quite beautiful in its own right - and it is this Beauty which is within each and every one of us. It just needs to be developed, and practiced, to emerge from the center, outward.

Love and Light,

taijasi

[Thomas]

St Thomas Aquinas once posited the notion that when man blasphemes, such as when he hits his thumb with a hammer, in anger, pain, frustration, etc - that this might not be precisely a blasphemy - which would involve the will in an act of abusing or reviling God - but in fact be an 'ejaculatory prayer'...

... allied to this, of course, was Angelic Doctor's proposition that no man wills evil, but rather in the weakness of himself wills a 'lesser good' ...

... the Divine Office opens its prayer with "Oh God, make haste to help me, Oh Lord, come to my assistance... "

... then, of course, there is prayer, and there is prayer... as St Therese has explored at great length ...

... curiously I was just now reading a text on the liturgy, which is a Mystery, the ascent of the soul into God, and the descent of God into man, but the liturgy is more than 'group prayer' ... is not the notion, that man can wander in off the street of a morning, and partake of the most solemn mystery, a blasphemy?

... And yet Christ said "Do this, in memory of me" - probably a cue for a discussion of the esoteric meaning of remembrance (Gk Anamnesis, Hb Zikaron) - and furthermore taught his followers to pray "Abba" - not simply 'father' but an informal use suggesting familial intimacy ...

... just some thoughts ...

Thomas

[Thomas]

St Thomas Aquinas once posited the notion that when man blasphemes, such as when he hits his thumb with a hammer, in anger, pain, frustration, etc - that this might not be precisely a blasphemy - which would involve the will in an act of abusing or reviling God - but in fact be an 'ejaculatory prayer'...

... allied to this, of course, was Angelic Doctor's proposition that no man wills evil, but rather in the weakness of himself wills a 'lesser good' ...

... the Divine Office opens its prayer with "Oh God, make haste to help me, Oh Lord, come to my assistance... "

... then, of course, there is prayer, and there is prayer... as St Therese has explored at great length ...

... curiously I was just now reading a text on the liturgy, which is a Mystery, the ascent of the soul into God, and the descent of God into man, but the liturgy is more than 'group prayer' ... is not the notion, that man can wander in off the street of a morning, and partake of the most solemn mystery, a blasphemy?

... And yet Christ said "Do this, in memory of me" - probably a cue for a discussion of the esoteric meaning of remembrance (Gk Anamnesis, Hb Zikaron) - and furthermore taught his followers to pray "Abba" - not simply 'father' but an informal use suggesting familial intimacy ...

... just some thoughts ...

Thomas

[Bruce Michael]

Esoteric Christianity is not a sect but a way of viewing things- as Mystical Christianity, Occult Christianity or Traditional Christianity might be.

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

Esoteric Christianity is not a sect but a way of viewing things- as Mystical Christianity, Occult Christianity or Traditional Christianity might be.

Welcome to CR, Bruce Michael!

Many people here are quite interested in Esoteric Christianity. I'm the taijasi of the above posts, for instance.

Could you elaborate on what Esoteric Christianity means to you?

Namaskar,

~andrew

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

Esoteric Christianity is not a sect but a way of viewing things- as Mystical Christianity, Occult Christianity or Traditional Christianity might be.

Esoteric Christianity is neither...

It is arrogant thinking, against others. It is a look down the nose at the more "simple", in terms of faith.

I'm sorry. You are new here. Welcome to CR. You just touched a nerve. Traditional Christianity can not be linked to the esoteric an any way shape or form. Why? It puts man in the pilot's seat.

So I'll ask you a question. If God can't get us out of a pickle, what makes us think man can?

Anyway, I'd like to hear your thoughts. Oh, and watch out for the wolves...unfortunately we have a few...

v/r

Joshua

[Sunny C.]

What is the essential difference between Christian esoterica and Christian mysticism? It would seem that the elements of esoterica are merely the insubstantial tools of the mystic experience, at least to some degree.

[AndrewX]

Sunny C.,

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "insubstantial tools?"

Thanks,

andrew

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

It is arrogant thinking, against others.

Something you just evidenced, Joshua! WTG!!!

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Traditional Christianity can not be linked to the esoteric an any way shape or form. Why? It puts man in the pilot's seat.

Clearly, here is a man who has never read his Bible. He has no faith in God, or in his creation (man, for one). This will become apparent in the next comment ...

Originally Posted by Quahom1

So I'll ask you a question. If God can't get us out of a pickle, what makes us think man can?

And who said we're in a pickle? (YOU did.) Who said God "can't get us out?" (YOU did.)

Yet, in the image of the Elohim were we fashioned, and thus we have Their potential. "Greater things than this, YE shall do." Something about Faith the size of a grain of mustard seed ...

But indeed, Joshua, these are difficult concepts - Faith, and Trust and such. Better leave that to the Esotericists ...

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Anyway, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Aherm, uh, err, here, let me SMASH open the very idea that there's anything of WORTH or value in Esoteric Christianity, but then try to CMA by saying "I'd like to hear your thoughts." Ummm, non sequitur?

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Oh, and watch out for the wolves...unfortunately we have a few...

Joshua likes to introduce himself in a roundabout way, but I think his True Colors are showing through quite nicely.

[Sunny C.]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Sunny C.,

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "insubstantial tools?"

Thanks,

andrew

I mean tools that are not physical objects. Mental tools as opposed to physical ones.

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by Sunny C.

I mean tools that are not physical objects. Mental tools as opposed to physical ones.

There are some practitioners of an Esoteric Christianity who use a definite ritual, prayer and meditation, who gather together in a "faith community," and who make the tenets of their Faith quite clear to others. For example, Sancta Sophia - headed by Rev. Carol E. Parrish.

I would submit the Liberal Catholic Church as one example. Here is the Wikipedia article on this organization ... and two official links:

The Liberal Catholic Church, Province of the USA (The American branch of the more traditional church which emphasizes theosophical tenets)

Liberal Catholic Church International (the church in which theosophical tenets are allowed but not emphasized)



Further, here's is a quote from the Wikipedia article on `Esoteric Christianity,' including two paragraphs from core concepts:

Esoteric Christianity refers to the occult study and the mystic living of the esoteric knowledge related to what adherents view as the "inner teachings" of early Christianity, seen as a Mystery religion. The term is thought by some to be originally associated with the Essenes and, later, the Rosicrucians.

Some modern-day practitioners believe that the foundational teachings of Esoteric Christianity were publicly presented to the world in the early 20th century (1) in an effort to establish a future universal religion as humanity, with a more developed mind and will, walks forward to the understanding of a Universal Friendship. Its central aim is to aid each human being in his task of developing the Golden Wedding Garment, also defined by Paul of Tarsus "soma psuchicon" (Greek "soma" [body] and "psuchicon" [psu(y)che--soul]; the 'soul body'): the Christ Within that must be born.

In that context, the Christ Within is the vehicle needed to be formed within each individual (Galatians 4:19) in order to be able to enter and permanently live in the next Sixth Epoch's etheric environment (new heavens and a new earth): the New Galilee. This etheric region of the planet is thus regarded as the place where an individual, through the development of the soul body and not the physical body, "shall be caught up IN THE CLOUDS to meet the Lord IN THE AIR": the Second Advent of the Christ.

Perhaps a bit too "heady" for Joshua, but our other resident Catholic will look at it all - not even blink (because intellectually he grasps it all) - then tear it to shreds.

And no, Esoteric Christianity isn't for everyone. But it does appeal to some ...

[Sunny C.]

From Merriam Webster:

1 a : designed for or understood by the specially initiated alone *a body of esoteric legal doctrine — B. N. Cardozo* b : requiring or exhibiting knowledge that is restricted to a small group *esoteric terminology* *esoteric strategies*; broadly : difficult to understand *esoteric subjects*
2 a : limited to a small circle *engaging in esoteric pursuits* b : PRIVATE, CONFIDENTIAL *an esoteric purpose*
3 : of special, rare, or unusual interest *esoteric building materials*
–es£o£ter£i£cal£ly \-i-k(*-)l*\ adverb

I believe that Joshua is referring to definitions 1 and 2. Of course the technical definition of a word is often quite different than it's colloquially understood meaning. We run into that when discussing fundamentalists and fundamentalism.