Entheogens-God inducing substances

[wil]

Indegenous tribes, medicine men, shaman, holy men, oftened used what we called hallucingens in the 60's to access spirit, God, source.

Today they are a completely revised topic...same products, ongoing study, research and a resurgence with a revised name Entheogens-God inducing substances.

From Carlos Castenada and Baba Ram Das of the modern times...all the way back...we've found plants and plant isolates to take us to another reality w/o space and time.

Plenty of links, google away, I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts.

namaste,

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by wil

Indegenous tribes, medicine men, shaman, holy men, oftened used what we called hallucingens in the 60's to access spirit, God, source.

Today they are a completely revised topic...same products, ongoing study, research and a resurgence with a revised name Entheogens-God inducing substances.

From Carlos Castenada and Baba Ram Das of the modern times...all the way back...we've found plants and plant isolates to take us to another reality w/o space and time.

Plenty of links, google away, I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts.

namaste,

Carlos Castaneda lost his Ph.D. because there was no Don Juan, the whole thesis was imaginary.

Baha`u'llah indicates that the mind is the perfect agent for communion with God and to alter that mind by the use of drugs is to LOSE the ability to commune with God.

So, its all a matter of point of view, I guess.

Regards,
Scott

[I, Brian]

Such substances change our perception of reality, and in doing, can potentially offer a new way to see God.

However, any substance that changes our perceptions is merely a tool - I don't believe drugs show us things that were not there before, but may help remind us to see the wood for the trees.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Such substances change our perception of reality, and in doing, can potentially offer a new way to see God.

However, any substance that changes our perceptions is merely a tool - I don't believe drugs show us things that were not there before, but may help remind us to see the wood for the trees.

I agree entirely with this notion Brian. My misspent youth was not entirely without reward and seeing the aura of light a tree produces under the influence of the indigenous Liberty cap is something I will forever cherish. The coincidence of common nomlaclature in this little fruit of the earth cannot be lost. Indeed the chemical effect on the brain is to open pathways our brains have developed substances to block. I do not advocate however that everyone go out and try on this liberty cap for themselves. Not all are ready for what they will see.

[sara[h]ng]

Such substances seem like the lazy way out to me.
Taken loosely, all of the main religions ask their members to become ever more virtuous in order to be closer to the divine. Could God really be okay with people taking a drug to experience Him, instead of developing true divine character?

As an afterthought, I think of the examples you originally gave, like medicine men, who may have worked hard to lead virtuous (in whatever sense their culture means it) lives. For them, I suppose there's no shortcut, only a tool?

- Sarah

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by sara[h]ng

Such substances seem like the lazy way out to me.
Taken loosely, all of the main religions ask their members to become ever more virtuous in order to be closer to the divine. Could God really be okay with people taking a drug to experience Him, instead of developing true divine character?

As an afterthought, I think of the examples you originally gave, like medicine men, who may have worked hard to lead virtuous (in whatever sense their culture means it) lives. For them, I suppose there's no shortcut, only a tool?

- Sarah

I think in most cases these substances are taken for specific ritual purposes and often to communicate with ancestors or spirit guides. Most , if not all, of these tribes do not have a single God and do not attempt to emulate the devine in the sense you mean.
My own experiences with these substances were as a genuinely naive 12 and 13 yr old who had no idea they were a drug and I was in no way looking for any spiritual experince from them. It did however show me that the universe is much bigger place than our eyes normaly let us see.

[pohaikawahine]

I attempted to address this same issue from a slightly different perspective in a thread that I started on "The Pineal and Spirituality" in the Beliefs and Spirituality Section of this site. Basically we have a chemical in our own brains that appears to open the gate to visions and revelations which is called dopamine .... it can be released in the brain at times of great "passion" or "desire" which is actually a state of being that one might reach in the search for connection to God .... chemicals from plants and other drugs can comes close, but probably not to the same degree as the natural release of chemicals in the brain itself .... these are the real God inducing substances and can be released through deep meditation or prayer .... just my thoughts to share .... check out the piece on Pineal and Spirituality if you wish (one person thought it sounded like ramblings .... but it is really important to understand the workings of our brains and their involvement on the path to spirituality) .... he hawai'i au, pohaikawahine

[sara[h]ng]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I think in most cases these substances are taken for specific ritual purposes and often to communicate with ancestors or spirit guides. Most , if not all, of these tribes do not have a single God and do not attempt to emulate the devine in the sense you mean.
My own experiences with these substances were as a genuinely naive 12 and 13 yr old who had no idea they were a drug and I was in no way looking for any spiritual experince from them. It did however show me that the universe is much bigger place than our eyes normaly let us see.

Yeah, that's why I said 'taken loosely'. I didn't mean 'the divine' to apply only to monotheistic cultures. To take, for example, Sioux culture, there was/are the ideas of the Great Hoop/Great Spirit and other spirits within nature. So in their society, 'the divine' - simply a word that I chose - means all those things. They communicated with those spirits via extreme hardships (e.g. the Sun Dance). Might they have thought that smoking something or eating something to get the same results was the lazy way out? Well, I'm not Sioux, but I would think so.

Not intentionally sticking to Native American cultures, I'm aware of certain ones that use peyote for those reasons, but they seem to be the exception, not the rule.

As for people taking hallucinogenic drugs just for the experience of doing so, I think that's something just in modern culture, and taking the history of humankind into consideration, that is again, the exception and not the rule. Though I acknowledge I could be wrong.


- Sarah

[pohaikawahine]

Originally Posted by sara[h]ng

Yeah, that's why I said 'taken loosely'. I didn't mean 'the divine' to apply only to monotheistic cultures. To take, for example, Sioux culture, there was/are the ideas of the Great Hoop/Great Spirit and other spirits within nature. So in their society, 'the divine' - simply a word that I chose - means all those things. They communicated with those spirits via extreme hardships (e.g. the Sun Dance). Might they have thought that smoking something or eating something to get the same results was the lazy way out? Well, I'm not Sioux, but I would think so.

Not intentionally sticking to Native American cultures, I'm aware of certain ones that use peyote for those reasons, but they seem to be the exception, not the rule.


- Sarah

most native american cultures subscribe to concept of the great spirit in the same way that others subscribe to the concept of God .... there is one great spirit .... other 'gods' are the recognition of this spirit in all things .... while there are some versions of chemical substances, for the most part the process of the "vision quest" is used to reach that place of knowing .... a "vision quest" is usually performed in solitude, includes fasting, and is a form of meditation (no drugs except the natural chemicals produced by the brain itself).... the great hoop is the cycle of life (and we are all participants in that process) ..... the "thunder beings" that are part of other tribes are symbols of the "lightening bolt" or the "transformation of consciousness" and you will find the "lightening bolt" in many other traditions .... the "snake clans" and the "bear clans" all protect and perpetuate symbols of other parts of the inner process of being .... the ancient knowledge is all in the symbols .... he hawai'i au, pohaikawahine

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by sarah

Such substances seem like the lazy way out to me.
Taken loosely, all of the main religions ask their members to become ever more virtuous in order to be closer to the divine. Could God really be okay with people taking a drug to experience Him, instead of developing true divine character?

As an afterthought, I think of the examples you originally gave, like medicine men, who may have worked hard to lead virtuous (in whatever sense their culture means it) lives. For them, I suppose there's no shortcut, only a tool?

- Sarah

The debate on whether or not using entheogens is morally appropriate or spiritually pure aside, the fact remains that they alter consciousness. An experience of altered consciousness can be frightening, comical, traumatic, and enlightening--often all at the same time. Personally, I don't see entheogens as "the lazy way out;" I think it takes a lot of courage to throw your mind and spirit into totally unknown territory. In the grip of these chemicals--these dirty drugs, these sacred plants, these transcendent beings, or whatever label you want to put on them--there is the potential of spiritual transformation through loss of ego. Our entire conception of reality can be challenged in a lasting way. The visions, understandings, and perceptual/conceptual shifts that can be brought about by these substances are not isolated instances--they are not a flash-in-the-pan recreational experience that is consumed quickly, and then we're on our way to the grocery store or doing the laundry, back in the mundane routines of our lives. Experiencing an altered state of consciousness, whether through meditation, prayer, fasting, or eating mushrooms, is not like watching a sit-com; we come away from the experience with a different take on our lives and reality.

I certainly don't think that people should eat LSD for breakfast, or take bong hits every two hours, but I think that there is something to be said for approaching these psychoative substances with awe and reverence, and experiencing them with the same awe and reverence. I don't think that sara[h]'s assertion that these substances are "the lazy way out" is fair. Anything can be labeled "lazy." For instance, sitting around in a cloud of incense, meditating for several hours a day. Or praying, even. All of these introspective spiritual excercises could be seen as lazy, especially by someone actively engaged with fighting injustice in the world. It's a matter of perspective.

I would agree that these kinds of substances are tools, to be used with caution, veneration, and to be experienced by a fully engaged mind. I would also have to agree that the full potential of psychoactive drugs, or entheogens, is lost on the typical suburban bedroom stoner, tokin' at 4:20 while munching a burrito and watching sydicated episodes of Seinfeld or Star Trek.



Peace,
Pathless

[sara[h]ng]

Originally Posted by Pathless

I certainly don't think that people should eat LSD for breakfast, or take bong hits every two hours, but I think that there is something to be said for approaching these psychoative substances with awe and reverence, and experiencing them with the same awe and reverence. I don't think that sara[h]'s assertion that these substances are "the lazy way out" is fair. Anything can be labeled "lazy." For instance, sitting around in a cloud of incense, meditating for several hours a day. Or praying, even. All of these introspective spiritual excercises could be seen as lazy, especially by someone actively engaged with fighting injustice in the world. It's a matter of perspective.

I get what you're saying, and I thank you for bringing up the point. I have to say though, that I would respect someone who can get to a state of altered consciousness on their own more than I would someone who gets there via a drug.

But, you're right it does come down to perspective. Why should anyone care what anyone else thinks? Why should I presume to call someone lazy? I think spirituality is a personal thing and it would be better if we all respected eachothers' personal beliefs and methods a bit more.

- Sarah