Enlightenment

[StarshipEnterprise]

Doesn't the concept of enlightenment contradict non-duality? Either you are enlightened or you are not. Sounds pretty dualistic to me. It makes more sense to me to think of enlightenment as a spectrum. Some are more enlightened than others, but there is no clear dividing line. Does this hold any merit?

Once you are enlightened, can you ever become un-enlightened?

If the answer is no, what if the enlightened person is falls victim to a car accident and suffers severe brain damage?

Maybe enlightenment doesn't make sense if you take it out of the context of reincarnation and Buddhist cosmology?

Am I utterly ignorant about the concept of enlightenment?

Please help!

[Netti-Netti]

I think you'll surely find some related thread if you do a search on key terms within the various forums.

Alternatively, if you could hold on a few days: I expect to be fully enlightend very shortly and would be pleased to tell you all about it at that point . . . for a nominal fee, of course.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Starship,

thank you for the post.

this article may be of some interest:

Fundamentals of Buddhism: Rebirth


excerpt here:

Finally, I would like to distinguish rebirth from transmigration. You may have noticed that in Buddhism, we consistently speak of rebirth and not transmigration. This is because in Buddhism we do not believe in an abiding entity, in a substance that trans-migrates. We do not believe in a self that is reborn. This is why when we explain rebirth, we make use of examples which do not require the transmigration of an essence or a substance. For example, when a sprout is born from a seed, there is no substance that transmigrates. The seed and the sprout are not identical. Similarly, when we light one candle from another candle, no substance travels from one to the other, and yet the first is the cause of the second. When one billiard ball strikes another, there is a continuity, the energy and direction of the first ball is imparted to the second. It is the cause of the second billiard ball moving in a particular direction and at a particular speed. When we step twice into a river, it is not the same river and yet there is continuity, the continuity of cause and effect. So there is rebirth, but not transmigration. There is moral responsibility, but not an independent, permanent self. There is the continuity of cause and effect, but not permanence. I want to end with this point because we will be considering the example of the seed and the sprout, and the example of the flame in an oil lamp next week when we discuss dependent origination. And with the help of the teaching of dependent origination, we will understand better how dependent origination makes moral responsibility and notself compatible.

with regards to the term "enlightenment" this is an unfortunate choice of terms in the English language, in my estimation, which was chosen when Theosophy first introduced Buddhism to England and wanted to present it as a completely rational religious tradition without any sort of odd metaphyic.

in any event the term Enlightenment is used to cover two distinct aspects of consciousness in Buddha Dharma; Awakening to the Dharma and Liberation from Samsara.

the gist of your questions, however, are not related to doctrine per se but seem to be more towards the metaphysics of Buddhism concerning the nature of Awakening and what it is that Awakens in the first place.

there are several ways in which this question, generally, has been addressed from a tremendously pedantic discussion with sutta references to simple similes and analogies though i'm sure my approach will be rather lacking from the traditional ones, but there it is.

when beings start on the Buddhist path they usually have a sense of self and soul and all of this, thus the teaching of no self and no soul is used to help uproot this ingrained tanha. the culmination of the Buddhist path, in this sense, is where concepts no longer arise, thus ideas of self and no self are simply not applicable to the Awakened and Liberated being.

here are a few related Suttas:
SN 44.10: Ananda Sutta

Then the wanderer Vacchagotta went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he asked the Blessed One: "Now then, Venerable Gotama, is there a self?"
When this was said, the Blessed One was silent.
"Then is there no self?"
A second time, the Blessed One was silent.
Then Vacchagotta the wanderer got up from his seat and left.
Then, not long after Vacchagotta the wanderer had left, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "Why, lord, did the Blessed One not answer when asked a question by Vacchagotta the wanderer?"
"Ananda, if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self — were to answer that there is a self, that would be conforming with those priests & contemplatives who are exponents of eternalism [the view that there is an eternal, unchanging soul]. If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those priests & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness]. If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self — were to answer that there is a self, would that be in keeping with the arising of knowledge that all phenomena are not-self?"
"No, lord."
"And if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: 'Does the self I used to have now not exist?'"



SN 35.85: Suñña Sutta


excerpt:



Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "It is said that the world is empty, the world is empty, lord. In what respect is it said that the world is empty?"
"Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty. And what is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self? The eye is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Forms... Eye-consciousness... Eye-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self.
"The ear is empty...
"The nose is empty...
"The tongue is empty...
"The body is empty...
"The intellect is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Ideas... Intellect-consciousness... Intellect-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Thus it is said that the world is empty."


metta,



~v

[Bishadi]

Doesn't the concept of enlightenment contradict non-duality? Either you are enlightened or you are not. Sounds pretty dualistic to me. It makes more sense to me to think of enlightenment as a spectrum. Some are more enlightened than others, but there is no clear dividing line. Does this hold any merit?

Each can be enlightened by knowledge and not rituals. To believe a concept as fact then you are enlightened to the cause.

Once you are enlightened, can you ever become un-enlightened?

Simply ignore the truth.

If the answer is no, what if the enlightened person is falls victim to a car accident and suffers severe brain damage?

Is the conscious ability of choice damaged? Like autism for example, the body is alive but they have no idea they are an ‘I’.

Maybe enlightenment doesn't make sense if you take it out of the context of reincarnation and Buddhist cosmology?

A born again Christian is what? See the point …. Who is describing and what is the intent, that is how to measure the data or story.

This is why when we explain rebirth, we make use of examples which do not require the transmigration of an essence or a substance. For example, when a sprout is born from a seed, there is no substance that transmigrates.

This is incorrect.

The seed and the sprout are not identical

But like you as a shade by the combining of your parents.

In a physical, literal sense….. when a parent copulates (pollen) there is a portion of mass and energy (light) upon each part (seed/sperm) that combines to make another life. So in a literal sense, a portion of you and every parent since the beginning of time is alive an in you and if ever there was a break in the chain you would not be here.

Honor your lineage and look into the mirror and say thank you, sir/ma’am…. To each of them.

But a piece of wisdom is to promise them, you will do all in your period of existence to make sure the next generation will have a chance you did not nor all your parents parents… that you will learn and share what is true in all things rather than continue the fibs and misgivings of the previous and current atrocities.

Stand up and be enlightened within, that nothing is more important that doing your best at all times to prepare for your lineage, life and ever lasting to have a chance.

[Snoopy]

Bishadi, you seem very confident and certain in your posts. May I ask what is the source or bedrock of this?

s.

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Bishadi, you seem very confident and certain in your posts. May I ask what is the source or bedrock of this?

s.

A life's pursuit of knowledge for one purpose, to understand.

No sect, no beliefs, no hope, simply an intent to comprehend.

each have the same abilities as the knowledge is already existing and to pursue for no other reason except to know, is as easy as trying with no thoughts of giving in to complacent or accepted benchmarks.

For example; the 2nd law of thermodynamics is an assumption not a fact as to suggest that mass is not capable of capturing energy from its environment is simply ignorant to observing the associated system, yet to understand schroadinger cat (analogy) is stating this exact reality.

The opinion of I (me) recognizes that since the beginning of time each and every soul ever born simply wants to know "how it works."

And all I spotted was that 'light' (EM upon mass) is simply energy. The math works, the philosophies point to the same and the religions, most all, have suggested the same since the beginning.

and to have 25+ years of observing knowledge from all over the globe (internet) is it so simple to answer each and every phenomenon and question without much difficulty.

Nothing magical, just being honest with what has been recognized and if I am in error, I am the first to claim an apology.

No one is perfect, but integrity and honesty is what we each can control by choice. I choose to be straight up which often appears arrogant, but that is the gift of being confident in the amount of data and material observed.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Bishadi

A life's pursuit

......

of data and material observed.

Thank you.

s.

[Ciel]

Greetings Bishadi,

Yes, light is energy..... and I wonder, in your perception have you grown to know and see the different qualities of the light of each day, for it is the movement of creative passing form intrinsic to the daily consciousness of life on earth including the natural worlds and all flora and fauna. Are you aware of the subtle emission of electromagnetic force touching all and everything as the sun sends seeds of absorption in molecules of colour possible to be seen by the naked eye for those with eyes wide open seeing from within........

And more......

- c -

[Ciel]

You see Bishadi, I am always hoping to find another who might understand.

- c -

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by Ciel

Greetings Bishadi,

Yes, light is energy..... and I wonder, in your perception have you grown to know and see the different qualities of the light of each day, for it is the movement of creative passing form intrinsic to the daily consciousness of life on earth including the natural worlds and all flora and fauna.

Hello and yes.

Are you aware of the subtle emission of electromagnetic force touching all and everything

Entanglement.

as the sun sends seeds of absorption in molecules of colour possible to be seen by the naked eye for those with eyes wide open seeing from within........

electromagnetic spectrum

And more......

- c -

and yes.... the combining of man will be upon the sciences of light unfolding to understand these things.... the last property of energy (light) is entanglement and for any who wish to do the homework, find that the force causes an affect to mass and in no where in all the cosmological physics do they observe this force in relativity (Virial Theorem) as now the equipment fine tunes and the difference is being called dark energy/matter but the truth only works one way and that variation is by the interaction of light with all her illustrious wavelengths (colors); entangles all mass exposed.

It is by following the rules of existence, Peace will reign.

[Ciel]

Bishadi,

We speak from different terms although I understand you perfectly.......

From a perspective of duality...........
Entanglement is far away from my own definition yet it is in those realms that would hold fast to secure a tenure on the progress of the evolutionary cycle we move through at present.......as move through we shall.

From a nondual perspective......
It is as it is. As you say. And is in what is in. Existence is in flux.

In one sense ....... I was...... I am on a completely different wavelengh.

Existence is not all there is.............. there is also a higher force.

Truth is as love ........ never one way without reflection.

peace - c -

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by Ciel

We speak from different terms although I understand you perfectly.......

Peace to you.

From a perspective of duality...........

Seems best that a single form rather than 2 face(s) makes for quality material knowledge for to be shared amongst people.

Entanglement is far away from my own definition

Not really, it is just a term or word to describe a phenomena, you are quite aware of.

The term is a scientifically created or caused word. Meaning the word was created to assist in defining a physical property of light (electromagnetism)

In one sense ....... I was...... I am on a completely different wavelengh.

Sounds confusing; maybe ask a question to level out the facts.

Existence is not all there is.............. there is also a higher force.

the three; time, mass, energy; the trinity....... pretty much covers existence into One; the total.

What else is there?

Maybe for the comprehension to develop? Maybe for the math to be comprehensible into words.

As the math removes all 'uncertanties' ..... then for words such as 'entanglement' to begin with you (as you suggest not knowing the application) allows a definition to begin comprehension to phenomena you acknowledge but no words had been known to comprehend how it works.

[Ciel]

Bishadi,

We speak from different terms although I understand you perfectly.

What else is there? There is higher source.....there is love.

- c -

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by Ciel

.

What else is there? There is higher source.....there is love.

- c -

Same physical force. meaning that Love is a term we (people) use to describe a physical application but in a context of the human experience.

Now observe this with the eyes of truth; a person is simply mass and energy and if mass is attracted to another based on interrelation (exchanges) then a physical entity is causing it.

A parant may unknowingly have this sense of Love for the new born. As they should, it is physical portion or their life (light) upon that new person.

Or like 2 people meeting, they find attraction based on exchanges of observance, communication, touching and the removal of the self at coupling.

In every case the Love is developed by exchanges of energy (light).

Nothing magical or of an outside force.

[Ciel]

Oh I see Bishadi, you are a tin man.

- c -