Enlightenment

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by Ciel

Oh I see Bishadi, you are a tin man.

- c -

dust to dust.....

each came from mother earth and will return....

as each food item raised from the earth and not a single atom is used; the energy (light) is what feeds

could a 'tin man' apply to all living persons.... ?

Are we each equal?

[Bishadi]

if each learn each moment, does knowledge build or destroy?

Neither!

As it is what choice each makes than imposes knowledge to existence.

If the material is 'good' then it will live and to share that knowledge offers them who share a life in that choice.

If the knowledge cannot build the perfection of 'good' and misleads, then the contribution dies along with the energy of the one who imposed.

If what is being shared is pure and is good for the benefit of the total; then share what gives life.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,


"Stay on target!"

*reference attachment*

metta,

~v

[Snoopy]

Very occasionally Vaj, I worry about you.

And now is one of those times.

s.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Very occasionally Vaj, I worry about you.

And now is one of those times.

s.

Hey, I understood what he was talking about. {Does that worry you even more?}

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Namaste all,


"Stay on target!"

*reference attachment*

metta,

~v

"Each can be enlightened by knowledge and not rituals. To believe a concept as fact then you are enlightened to the cause "

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Very occasionally Vaj, I worry about you.

And now is one of those times.

s.

if you only knew me!



metta,

~v

[Francis king]

starshipenterprise...

enlightenment as a concept is very different from enlightenment as an actuality...

what we think of as enlightenment is often not enlightenment at all, but something else...

it is popular to view enlightenment as a big event, like switching on a light- one flick, and wham! it's very bright all of a sudden, and yes, while it is true that for some people enlightenment occurs just like that, oftentimes enlightenment is a process, a gradual unfurling, not a discovering, but an uncovering...

an almost enlightened being can become unenlightened- if enlightenment is just a concept to grasp, or a state to attain, then yes, a person can regress backwards, slip up, allow some small yet deadly part of themselves to have reign, but a true enlightened being can never lose his light...

adopting a concept or chanting a slogan or dressing up in a robe does not make a person enlightened... saying a person is enlightened does not mean they are enlightened... simply believing is not enough- a child believes in Father Christmas... it does not make Father Christmas real...

what is enlightenment? conventionally, it could be described as coming to realisation, it could be considered to come to understanding, discovering insight or wisdom, yet is this really enlightenment?

And yet... there is another kind of enlightenment, not based on intelligence and good behaviour, a kind of enlightenment that is spoken of quietly in all religions, young and old, east and west... that enlightenment uncovers other things- the ability to know the minds of others, the ability to know past and future time, the ability to heal and intercede, the ability to know things which go beyond simple logic and reasoning...

this kind of enlightenment gives us prophets and saints, and shamans and witches, and gurus...

so, what is enlightenment for a buddhist? Is there one? Is there several?

I would say for the average buddhist, their goal is not enlightenment... but, even if it was, there would be not just one grand enlightenment, but several small ones.... such as...waking up to the self and the nature of the self, waking up to thought and the nature of thought, ridding themselves of the poisons and afflictions, being decent, ethical, having an awareness of time and space and understanding their place in the great grand scheme of things... all these things bring about a kind of enlightenment, and while that might be fine and dandy, it is not a dramatic, sudden thing, but a gradual process of polishing the mirror of the mind until it gleams, like it did in the beginning, before the dust of the world settled upon it...

[StarshipEnterprise]

I would like to thank everyone for their replies. Sorry if I don't get around to responding to them all.

Originally Posted by Francis king

it is popular to view enlightenment as a big event, like switching on a light- one flick, and wham! it's very bright all of a sudden, and yes, while it is true that for some people enlightenment occurs just like that, oftentimes enlightenment is a process, a gradual unfurling, not a discovering, but an uncovering...

It seems there is some misunderstanding between east and west. I always thought of enlightenment this way. A light in your head suddenly comes on and *poof* enlightenment! It seems any kind of realization could be called "enlightenment".

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Fundamentals of Buddhism: Rebirth


excerpt here:

Finally, I would like to distinguish rebirth from transmigration. You may have noticed that in Buddhism, we consistently speak of rebirth and not transmigration. This is because in Buddhism we do not believe in an abiding entity, in a substance that trans-migrates. We do not believe in a self that is reborn. This is why when we explain rebirth, we make use of examples which do not require the transmigration of an essence or a substance. For example, when a sprout is born from a seed, there is no substance that transmigrates. The seed and the sprout are not identical. Similarly, when we light one candle from another candle, no substance travels from one to the other, and yet the first is the cause of the second. When one billiard ball strikes another, there is a continuity, the energy and direction of the first ball is imparted to the second. It is the cause of the second billiard ball moving in a particular direction and at a particular speed. When we step twice into a river, it is not the same river and yet there is continuity, the continuity of cause and effect. So there is rebirth, but not transmigration. There is moral responsibility, but not an independent, permanent self. There is the continuity of cause and effect, but not permanence. I want to end with this point because we will be considering the example of the seed and the sprout, and the example of the flame in an oil lamp next week when we discuss dependent origination. And with the help of the teaching of dependent origination, we will understand better how dependent origination makes moral responsibility and notself compatible.

I found this very interesting. Is rebirth, then, just a metaphor for how our actions affect future generations; worded in a way so that it appeals to the masses? I have always been interested in Buddhism, but considered reincarnation to be bs. It seems I'm getting a fresh new view on Buddhist concepts, and that they aren't what they appear to be at first glance.

I have also glanced at some other threads on this topic, such as :What is Enlightenment? (rewritten/edited)

I haven't had too much time for Cr lately, but I'll look into it as soon as I can!

btw: I hope to take a class on Buddhist philosophy next fall, so hopefully that should clear some things up

metta, (did I get that right?, lol)

SE

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by StarshipEnterprise

I always thought of enlightenment this way. A light in your head suddenly comes on and *poof* enlightenment! It seems any kind of realization could be called "enlightenment".

Perhaps it is sudden. Perhaps it is gradual. Perhaps there is nothing to "achieve" as we already have it; but need to realise it.

Gotta love this title :

Wanting Enlightenment Is a Big Mistake: Teachings of Zen Master Seung Sahn (978-1-59030-340-5) - Wanting Enlightenment Is a Big Mistake

I have always been interested in Buddhism, but considered reincarnation to be bs.

I think the Buddha did too, as he could not find a "soul" to re-incarnate.

Enjoy the course!

s.

[Bishadi]

Wanting Enlightenment Is a Big Mistake: Teachings of Zen Master Seung Sahn (978-1-59030-340-5) - Wanting Enlightenment Is a Big Mistake

The more you know the greater responsibility.

That is why many prefer not to speak, as they know what responsibility an action imposes.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Perhaps it is sudden. Perhaps it is gradual. Perhaps there is nothing to "achieve" as we already have it; but need to realise it.

Sometimes like this?:

Gotta love this title :

Wanting Enlightenment Is a Big Mistake: Teachings of Zen Master Seung Sahn (978-1-59030-340-5) - Wanting Enlightenment Is a Big Mistake

I like that title!

[Ciel]

SG, You okay?

Doesn't have to be a Big Foot thing.........

- c -

[Bishadi]

That foot thing may be quite enlightening;

Representing the fruitless fools of mankind; thinking they are balanced, but fail the meets and bound of nature eventually crushing them and finally stomped on by the foot of the total of humanity.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Ciel

SG, You okay?

Doesn't have to be a Big Foot thing.........

- c -

I'm fine. Actually I'm in agreement with Snoopy:

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Perhaps there is nothing to "achieve" as we already have it; but need to realise it.