El, YHVH and Asherah

[Prober]

How did the Israelites come to identify the one true God with YHVH and why did that God so vehemently proscribe the worship of Asherah, since she is descibed as his consort. Is this a change from the God of Abraham?

[JustifiedByFaith]

Originally Posted by Prober

How did the Israelites come to identify the one true God with YHVH and why did that God so vehemently proscribe the worship of Asherah, since she is descibed as his consort. Is this a change from the God of Abraham?

Dear Prober,

[JustifiedByFaith]

Dear Prober,



I don't understand the question? Could you go a little further please?

[Karimarie]

Originally Posted by Prober

How did the Israelites come to identify the one true God with YHVH and why did that God so vehemently proscribe the worship of Asherah, since she is descibed as his consort. Is this a change from the God of Abraham?

As for the first part of the question, the Tetragrammaton (Yod-He-Vav-He, YHVH) is the name God used for Itself when speaking to Moses. Other names for God in Judaism (Adonai, Hashem, El, Elohim, Ein Sof et al) developed later on. Yes, all of them are Hebrew words, but the way the words were used in Biblical times was different than the way they are used now. Research seems to indicate that YHVH was the name commonly used by the Israelites and the Jews of the Bible until the beginning of Rabbinic Judaism, after which the names used today were instituted.

As for the second part, what are you talking about? Please clarify.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Prober

How did the Israelites come to identify the one true God with YHVH

because he causes to become, and everything that he promises comes true. just as moses said it would.
The worship of Asherah involved the use of a sacred pole believed to be a sexual symbol.
Baal worship was often very immoral. and the true God wants his people to be a clean people .
the true God taught the Israelites how to worship him in a pure way.
some forms of worship are not acceptable to God. What about our day?

[Quahom1]

As this is a question that applies to at least two faiths, I think it better served in the Ahabramic Religions Forum...

v/r

Q

[Prober]

Originally Posted by JustifiedByFaith

Dear Prober,



I don't understand the question? Could you go a little further please?

It seems that the name of the caananite volcano god (apparently living in Mt Sinai) was YHVH (also Baal-Peor) and Asherah was his consort.

It's interesting to read the description in the Bible of the smoke, thunderings and Gode telling Moses "make sure the people don't come up here".

Also, when the golden calf gets melted and ground to powder, Moses makes the people drink the water into which he dumped it.

They get sick and he makes the Caduceus (Asherah pole?) which makes them well. It has been suggested that the Caduceus represents the method of extracting a certain worm from the body, wherein the physician would wrap the worm around a stick and keep turning slowly every day until the worm was pulled out.

Did the israelites get worms from drinking the golden calf water?

Did God have the israelites wipe out the Midianites so severely because of their worship of Asherah?

Can we draw any conclusions from other names of Asherah (Hathor, Whore of Babylon, Eve)?

If the israelites identified with God as YHVH starting at this point, did Moses think "cool volcano God myth, I can use this"? or were the Caananites worshiping the true God and didn't know it?

[flowperson]

Before the Kingdom of Israel came into being through G-d's will, and before the tabernacle in the desert was created to communicate with G-d, there were more primitive forms of belief among the ancient Hebrews that involved worshipping the most high in "high places" among bunches of poles or staffs stuck in the ground known as "Groves". This was abolished and prohibited by the ruling class in about 600 bce at about the time when the kingdom became more urban as opposed to nomadic.

Anthropologists believe that this was a transitional form of worship carrying over more primitive ritual forms that were prevalent in ancient Asia wherein a chosen individual would climb the "universal tree" to communicate and intervene with the spirit world on behalf of the community that chose him to.

Invariably this was a male since it was a universal belief in the ancient times that the male G-d came from the sky, and the female G-d came from the earth. There are also inscribed pottery fragments and whole pieces that depict Yahweh and his consort Asherah. They are shown as anthropomorphic figures ( bearing a bodily resemblance to humans) but they are also shown to be wearing elaborate headdress/mask devices which exhibit smiling faces.

It was very important for ancients to visually depict their deities, and invariably they were both male and female, paired as they were in human life, since that was the image that they were created in from the beginning, male and female together, both the powers of the sky and earth working together to bring about the future through their progeny and works.

Now, the land of Palestine/Israel is the place where the concept of mono-theism was invented when the invisible-male-oriented-warrior-sky-G-d of the northern tribes of the holy land was merged with the male/female oriented G-d of the southern tribes to become the hidden presence, YHWH, among His people. At this time also an exclusive male-oriented warrior reference to G-d was originated that remains to this day, which, IMHO, is unfortunate and has led to much bloodshed in the ensuing millenia, as we have all witnessed recently yet once again. But the scientific record is clear that this was not always so as I have mentioned above.

It is also interesting to note that an etymological analysis of the name "ISRAEL" denotes three components. "Is" which is an ultimate statement of being. And in fact is the first concept related to Moses in G-d's first revelation to His people from the burning bush. "RA" which to me is a reference to the supreme deity of ancient Egypt. And "EL" which is a reference to the hidden warrior deity of the north. Together the name "Israel" says all that needs to be said about the monotheistic G-d that we believe in to this day.

If anyone has any questions or corrections/ additions about/to what I have presented, please feel free to post them.

flow....

[Prober]

Fascinating! Thanks, Flow. Who did Abraham worship or what was his concept of the One God?

[mee]

[quote=Prober]It seems that the name of the caananite volcano god (apparently living in Mt Sinai) was YHVH (also Baal-Peor) and Asherah was his consort.
quote]
In the New World Translation of the Hebrew Scriptures "Jehovah" is listed as YHWH.
It is rendered this way in the New World Translation, instead of "Y H V H," because the Jewish letter, the third one in the name, is pronounced like a "W" instead of like a "V." This fact is shown up in that some translators render the divine name into English as "Yahweh" instead of "Jahveh. So when the OP mentioned YHVH i am thinking that he is meaning the God of the bible JEHOVAH Psalm 83;18 this true God was not a caananite God at all, but Asherah was a caananite god.
Many worshiped a god called Baal. They also worshiped female companions of Baal, such as Asherah. but this was false worship ,
One thing is certain, Baal worship was often very immoral.
Now Israel was dwelling in ****´tim. Then the people started to have immoral relations with the daughters of Mo´ab. And the women came calling the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people began to eat and to bow down to their gods. So Israel attached itself to the Ba´al of Pe´or; and the anger of Jehovah began to blaze against Israel...Numbers 25;1-3 the God of the bible did not approve of caananite gods,it was wrong.

[flowperson]

Prober:

When trying to analyze and answer questions such as your last one, we are, of course, naturally limited by the mythical nature of Abraham and his experiences.

To me Abraham was representative of the transitional persona in the conversion of western civilizations' immersion in idol worship in the ancient times to societies that went on to worship an all-powerful, invisible, and loving G-d. Keed in mind that Abram's father was an idol maker in Ur in Babylonia when Abram was moved to become nomadic and seek a better way to worship G-d. It was then that he became known as "Abraham". The change in his name here is likely representative of a profound change in his persona, IMHO. These stories concerning his life and times as they appear in Genesis are all metaphors of what communities of real people likely went through and experienced during their conversion from one set of spiritual truths to another.

If you can locate a copy of Bill Moyers' wonderful television series from the 80's called, "The Power of Myth", which was a series of interviews with the late Joseph Campbell, then I believe that you would be more able to integrate these concepts with your knowledge. There was also a book published at the time by that name that should still be available on Amazon. I would also recommend reading anything that Campbell wrote as he was acknowledged to be the foremost expert of his time on mythology; and, in fact Campbell, who was a Roman Catholic, consulted with George Lucas before he created his Star Wars sagas.

flow....

[Karimarie]

Originally Posted by Prober

Did God have the israelites wipe out the Midianites so severely because of their worship of Asherah?

I've read a couple of commentaries and determined that the reason the Israelites destroyed the Midianites was because the Midianites hired Balaam to curse them.

Originally Posted by Prober

If the israelites identified with God as YHVH starting at this point, did Moses think "cool volcano God myth, I can use this"? or were the Caananites worshiping the true God and didn't know it?

A. No, because YHVH in the scope of the ancient Israelite religion was not a "volcano God"... People needed their symbols, but suggesting a "volcano God" was one of the important ones is silly. Regarding Moses thinking of God as a "volcano God", the question then has to be asked did Moses "invent" God or did God "invent" Moses?

B. The Midrash says that most of the other nations were worshipping angels under God's authority, while the Israelites were worshipping God (ie HaShem). Personally, I'm not sure the ancient religions were really worshipping anything at all, but that's the view of the Mishnaic and Talmudic Rabbis.

Originally Posted by flowperson

It is also interesting to note that an etymological analysis of the name "ISRAEL" denotes three components. "Is" which is an ultimate statement of being. And in fact is the first concept related to Moses in G-d's first revelation to His people from the burning bush. "RA" which to me is a reference to the supreme deity of ancient Egypt. And "EL" which is a reference to the hidden warrior deity of the north. Together the name "Israel" says all that needs to be said about the monotheistic G-d that we believe in to this day.

I'm not sure what the Hebrew word for "Ra" is, but the 'Yis' and the 'El' certainly apply. It's interesting that a discussion of the word's syllables works in both English and in Hebrew.

[flowperson]

Karimarie:

Hmmm... yeah it is...wonder how that happened ? Got any ideas ?

Oh...remember that back-in-the-day there was a Hebrew temple on the Elephantine Island in the middle of the Nile River in Egypt, and the only fully functioning one that existed outside of the one in Jerusalem. I believe that's where the "Ra" part comes into the picture, as Yahweh was known as the G-d of the tribes of the south of Palestine/Israel.

flow....

[bananabrain]

It is also interesting to note that an etymological analysis of the name "ISRAEL" denotes three components. "Is" which is an ultimate statement of being. And in fact is the first concept related to Moses in G-d's first revelation to His people from the burning bush. "RA" which to me is a reference to the supreme deity of ancient Egypt. And "EL" which is a reference to the hidden warrior deity of the north.

i'm sorry, flow, but this is bollocks. "israel" is the english translation of the word "YiSRaEL" (lowercase are vowels), which means "struggles with G!D" - the name given to jacob after his wrestling match. it has nothing to do with "is", let alone ra.

as for the rest of this:

yes, it is well known that the canaanites worshipped a bunch of gods whose names included the names "Ya-H" and "E-L". that's because these are both words signifying the Divine, while "ba'al" means "master", thus signifying another type of relationship. the fact that there were canaanite gods named Y-this and E-that is not actually indicative of anything much. what is notable about them is that they describe particular characteristics or areas of influence. they could have a god of plumbing called Y-plumbing for all i know. the hebrew approach to the Divine was revolutionary in that it rejected the notion that G!D could be parcelled out or circumscribed into limited spheres of influence. thus G!D was described as G!D, whether of the mountains or of the sea, or wherever. G!D Is G!D Is G!D. that's all there is to it. the fact that some canaanites or mesopotamians or phoenicians or whatever happened to have a god whose name "E-cutlery " means "the god of cutlery" is not indicative of anything about the idea of G!D promoted by biblical judaism.

now it is certainly true that the biblical israelites were known to have spent a considerable amount of their time worshipping local, or reduced versions of G!D that were the particular canaanite ones concerned with agriculture or mountains or whatever, but that's precisely the point - the Torah says they did that and that it was a sin, for which the word is "HET" - the word for an arrow missing its mark. in other words, it is a theological short-circuit, an easy mistake to make and one which the israelites were constantly making, under the influence of the canaanites and surrounding cultures. sometimes they even went as far as making statues (usually of calves) and picking up non-Y and E cults like that of ba'al-pe'or. not only that, but they fell into the error of imagining G!D to be male (because the Y's and E's of the canaanites were male) and therefore requiring a "mrs god" - and that is where asherah, anath and a whole bunch of other female goddesses come in.

the point is this - they're all wrong. the G!D of the hebrew bible transcends gender and just about everything else. the Divine is not a man that requires a wife, heaven forbid, nor the opposite. people simply get it wrong. people make mistakes and they try and make G!D in their own image, in a way that they can relate to, instead of understanding that G!D Is by definition One, not two. what archaeological evidence may show about actual behaviour is not indicative of what the correct thing to believe was, any more than a film about italian-american gangsters is an indication that that is what everyone italian-american is like, or that that sort of behaviour is acceptable and correct, despite being common.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Karimarie]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Hmmm... yeah it is...wonder how that happened ? Got any ideas?

Not a one.