Ego

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

I am talking about a strong sense of understanding who you are in the world. Not to be pushed this way and that by forces which would want you to follow their will- these might be other human beings or spiritual beings.

-Br.Bruce

Ah this would be where I stuggle.

I feel that with my faith I am quite able to go against the flow, to simply follow my heart and I will let nothing push me aside from my connection to G-d. I realise I may sound like a nutcase but I feel as though the knowledge of G-d is imprinted on my soul, so I cannot allow myself to stray from that.

The real self that lives in this world and has to communcate with my surroundings (the conscious self, rather than the spiritual self) has a tougher time understanding her place in the world. This is the self that struggles. This is what I think of as my ego, easily led astray.

It is quite exhausting just contemplatng the fighting the two selves do.

I find it interesting that people seem to think of ego in a positive way, yet I can only view it as a negative.

I am starting to see your interpretation of 'ego' as the blank canvas of our 'self'? How we then choose to express ourselves would demonstrate a strong or weak 'ego'. No, that doesn't sound right or our ego would then be simply an expression of our personal moral code.

Salaam
Sally

[Bruce Michael]

Hi Sally,
>I feel that with my faith I am quite able to go against the flow, to simply >follow my heart and I will let nothing push me aside from my connection >to G-d. I realise I may sound like a nutcase but I feel as though the >knowledge of G-d is imprinted on my soul, so I cannot allow myself to >stray from that.

Our direct arterial connection to God as a means of deliberating our choices is in ongoing development.
"To thine own self be true"

"More radiant than the Sun,
purer than the Snow,
subtler than the Ether,
is the Self,
the Spirit within my heart.
I am that Self; that Self am I,"


>The real self that lives in this world and has to communcate with my >surroundings (the conscious self, rather than the spiritual self) has a >tougher time understanding her place in the world. This is the self that >struggles. This is what I think of as my ego, easily led astray.

It's something like this situation:
The Miller, His Son, And Their Donkey
English-Zone.Com - Aesop's Fables - The Miller, His Son, And Their Donkey

Obstinacy is a good thing in human beings.


>I find it interesting that people seem to think of ego in a positive way, >yet I can only view it as a negative.

Here's how Dr. Steiner explains it (better than me):
Chapter I: 4. Body, Soul and Spirit

In the course of his development as a child, there comes a moment in the life of a man when for the first time he feels himself to be an independent being distinct from all the rest of the world. For sensitive natures, it is a significant experience. The poet, Jean Paul, says in his autobiography, “I shall never forget the event that took place within me, hitherto narrated to no one and of which I can give place and time, when I stood present at the birth of my self-consciousness. As a small child I stood one morning at the door of the house looking towards the wood-pile on my left, when suddenly the inner vision, I am an I, came upon me like a flash of lightning from heaven and has remained shining ever since. In that moment my ego had seen itself for the first time and forever. Any deception of memory is hardly to be conceived as possible here, for no narrations by outsiders could have introduced additions to an occurrence that took place in the holy of holies of a human being, and of which the novelty alone gave permanence to such everyday surroundings.” It is known that little children say of themselves, “Charles is good.” “Mary wants to have this.” One feels it is to be right that they speak of themselves as if of others because they have not yet become conscious of their independent existence, and the consciousness of the self is not yet born in them.

-Steiner

>I am starting to see your interpretation of 'ego' as the blank canvas of >our 'self'? How we then choose to express ourselves would demonstrate a >strong or weak 'ego'. No, that doesn't sound right or our ego would then >be simply an expression of our personal moral code.

The thing is, all choices can be good.

A person's selfhood is sacred to them and to God. The insignia of
that individuality, the traits both rare and common, the right within
to make choices regarding their own destiny as it accumulates in the
forming of the present also, the protection of the ego in the honesty
only self can know within..... - make for a man to continue being a man, rather than just an image, 'forgery' or apparition of self.

-The Brothers

You see apart from the demands of the "lower man" our "higher man" can also make choices, which at the present time, could prove fatal:

The higher attributes could rightly select a poverty that requires a man to serve charity, and when his body deteriorates from hunger and overwork the 'higher' soul could be well satisfied, and yet the Arterial Self may protest this with good reason.

-The Brothers

You see we can be arterially connected with God.

With excellent judgment, therefore, does Jean Paul call a man's recognition of his ego an “occurrence taking place only in the veiled holy of holies of a human being,” for with his “I” man is quite alone. This “I” is the very man himself. That justifies him in regarding his ego as his true being.

Steiner

Best Regards,
Br.Bruce

[Muslimwoman]

Salaam Br Bruce

Can I thank you for this discussion, at 42 years old I do not think I have ever bothered to examine who or what my 'self' is. It is quite an eye opener and an interesting exploration, although a little scary.

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

"It's something like this situation:
The Miller, His Son, And Their Donkey

Well that got bookmarked immediately. It really makes you consider what you would do in that situation, what is the right and wrong, would you bow to peer pressure?

I gave this much thought, when do I bow to peer pressure and when do I stand my ground? For me everything came back to G-d. My views and ideas can be swayed by information and the views of others, until it comes to the fundamental issues pertaining to G-d. These seem to be the only things that are, for me, immovable. 1.4 billion Muslims could tell me that G-d wants us to stone women to death for adultery but nothing is going to make me believe it, my inner voice just screams that this is a man made innovation and could not possibly come from G-d, as it goes against everything He teaches. (that is not to say that 1.4 billion Muslims believe this, it is just an example).

Should I wear the sleevless top or the one that covers me? This small choice every day also comes back to my desire to please G-d. I do not feel that He wishes me to show off my body to all and sundry, so I choose the loose top that covers me. However, the choice of a dark colour comes down to peer pressure, as I do not feel that G-d is in the slightest bit interested what colour my clothes are, or all animals would surely be a muddy brown colour? However, I don't feel that bowing to peer pressure on this issue negates my sense of 'self', there are times that being part of the group affirms your sense of self (or do I say that because it feeds my insecurities?).

Quite what any of these ramblings have to do with self I am not sure, I am just trying to reason out why I make the choices I do and how much influence I allow others to have over my choices.

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

"Here's how Dr. Steiner explains it:

Most interesting. I can remember my exact moment. I am without doubt a Daddy's girl, I grew up believing he knew everything and could not possibly be wrong. I think I was 12 years old when I heard the words "that is not right" coming out of my mouth, as I was talking to my father. It was a real shock, I actually had a differing view. I felt that sense of 'self' in that moment (although it appears to have largely eluded me since ).


In conclusion, I think I would have to change the saying to "to thine own self be true, when it really matters".

Salaam
Sally

[Snoopy]

To study the way is to study the self
To study the self is to forget the self
To forget the self is to be enlightened
by all things of the universe.
To be enlightened by all things is to transcend
the distinction of self and other
and to go on in ceaseless enlightenment forever.

- Dogen

s.

[Bruce Michael]

Dear Sally
>Can I thank you for this discussion, at 42 years old I do not think I have >ever bothered to examine who or what my 'self' is. It is quite an eye >opener and an interesting exploration, although a little scary.

It's an important question for everyone. We may find that we've defined our self by our marriage, our house, our job/qualifications, bank account, our looks etc. But what happens when all this fades- what's left?


>I gave this much thought, when do I bow to peer pressure and when do I >stand my ground?

It's also difficult when you're put on the spot for an immediate decision. That's when things can go pear-shaped. We need that arterial waver, a pause for consideration. When someone tries to force you into a decision, just tell them that you'll consider it.

> However, I don't feel that bowing to peer pressure on this issue negates >my sense of 'self', there are times that being part of the group affirms your >sense of self (or do I say that because it feeds my insecurities?).

The point is that all your decisions can be good- you can decide to go with the pack or not.

We all need to feel a sense of belonging- that's normal.

Good Wishes,
Br.Bruce

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

It's an important question for everyone. We may find that we've defined our self by our marriage, our house, our job/qualifications, bank account, our looks etc. But what happens when all this fades- what's left?

Salaam Br. Bruce

My submission and love of G-d of course.

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

When someone tries to force you into a decision, just tell them that you'll consider it.

That is excellent advice, I shall take that on board.

My apologies, you were probably looking for an in depth intellectual discussion about ego and I have reduced it down to my simplistic ramblings. I shall leave others to debate ego now but thank you, your topic has sent me on a voyage of discovery and changed my mind about the word ego. I can now see that it can be a positive as well as a negative.

Peace & Blessings
Sally

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

My apologies, you were probably looking for an in depth intellectual discussion about ego and I have reduced it down to my simplistic ramblings.

We can do simplistic too!

s.

[Paladin]

Absolutely MW, it might be said that ego is merely what the other fellow suffers from :0)

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Absolutely MW, it might be said that ego is merely what the other fellow suffers from :0)

Ah yes but when you are the other fellow, it gets a little worrying.

I really have been giving this subject much thought. The secret seems to be finding the right balance between being confident with who you are and not allowing that to spill over into arrogance.

Simplicity - the secret to a happy life

[Bruce Michael]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Salaam Br. Bruce

My submission and love of G-d of course.



That is excellent advice, I shall take that on board.

My apologies, you were probably looking for an in depth intellectual discussion about ego and I have reduced it down to my simplistic ramblings. I shall leave others to debate ego now but thank you, your topic has sent me on a voyage of discovery and changed my mind about the word ego. I can now see that it can be a positive as well as a negative.

Peace & Blessings
Sally

Your comments were not simplistic Sally, it is all part of our daily lives. Our ability to make free decisions is a "work in progress".

We have a lower ego and a higher ego.

I could have added the the highest expression of the 'I' that has been seeded in our soul is termed the Consciousness Soul or Arterial Self. This is why it is so important today to not encroach upon people's personal freedoms.

The spirit forming an "I" and living as 'I', or ego or self of man is called Spirit Self; or Higher Manas in theosophical literature.

Heartily,
Br.Bruce

[AndrewX]

It might also be worth adding that the Theosophical, or esoteric presentation of `Ego' is one of evolving Consciousness, and not something static, though it sometimes seems that way in the Human Kingdom.

Before there is the Higher Ego present, the true Individuality, there is still Consciousness, but it is not (self-)reflective. There is also what Theosophists call a `group soul.' Modern science, especially the social sciences, recognize this as the herd instinct. And it is observable in a flock of birds, where the entire flock behaves as one. Notice that this is automatic, however, and not at all a CONSCIOUS CHOICE of each, "individual" bird (imagine that - several hundred birds all having to DECIDE whether or not to turn and move in another direction ... talk about chaos!!!).

We can also see the herd instinct in - herds! In the plains of Africa, or the jungles of the Amazon, animals are (or were) largely undomesticated, and tend to behave according to the unconscious group soul. But there are several, domesticating lines, whereby the animal soul (the true, Transcendent, Reincarnating Entity) gradually evolves towards Humanity. We can see these in the cat, dog, elephant, horse and monkey. This evolution occurs both in response to the magnetic Will of Deity (drawing forth the future Individual Soul out of the herd, as it were), as well as due to the immediate (or physical) presence & influence of Humanity upon the animal forms and consciousness.

So, looking backward, so to speak, we can see our own past within the Animal Kingdom, as the unconscious Group Soul slowly developed towards Individuality, proceeding along the lines of domestication, until eventually a pet dog or cat reached the APEX of Animal Evolution. There are no current opportunities on Earth for animals to enter the Human Kingdom, but in a future cycle the animals which have currently reached the Human stage will begin their Human evolutionary trek, just as we did upon this planet many millions of years ago (or upon the Moon, long long ages prior).

If we look in the other direction, and consider that Consciousness is actually a Continuum, we can see that our Soul's awareness is NOT proceeding toward a more & more refined, or developed, sense of "I" - or at least, not in the sense that modern psychology or Buddhists define the word `ego'. Instead, we are moving away from a sense of "I-ness" (or Ahamkara, in Sanskrit terms), and TOWARDS a sense of "WE-ness." The reason for this, is that once we enter the Human Kingdom, as all upon Earth have done in long ages past, we DEVELOP the sense of "I-ness" more and more acutely, so that we, most of us, have reached the apotheosis of `isolated selfhood' in our PAST ... and do not need to pursue this development any further. For some upon Earth, this is not the case, and we can observe this as those who "have not" increasingly take their rightful place (Evolutionarily speaking) as the "haves." They are still coming into their OWN, as the Divine Plan allows and affords for all.

Where most of us are heading, now that we've allowed the development of the isolated, egotistical (or lower self, ego-centered) consciousness to reach its fullest ... is toward a relationship with our Higher Ego, or the SOUL on its own plane. In exoteric religious terms, this is often simply spoken of as Serving God, or seeking God, Uniting with God, allowing God into our lives, etc. The Soul, while not God in the sense of the Highest, is nevertheless our Intermediary, or the `Face of God,' as it is referred to in the Priestly Blessing (Prayer of the Kohanim). It is that portion of the Divine Countenance which shines within the lives of each one of us, and which draws us, magnetically, back unto the Deity Whom and Which sent us all forth. It does this Lovingly, Intelligently and in perfect accordance with Divine Will. Ours is to learn how to Cooperate with the Soul (aka God's Will, literally the Angel of the Presence), rather than to willfully resist and cause unnecessary struggle and suffering.

The future course, for all of us, is one of gradually increasingly IDENTITY as the SOUL, which means that we are all slowly learning about our Divine Heritage, as well as our Divine Potential ... and how very natural (if also difficult) it is that we should come to Serve God, rather than to live for the separated self. In truth, there is no separated self, as this has been a necessary - but only temporary - identification of Consciousness (the Soul Aspect) with the form. Without this stage, in between that of the animal consciousness (non self-reflective, thus GROUP in the subconscious sense) and the Divine (GROUP in the Conscious, GREATER-SELF-reflective sense), the Plan could not continue. Humanity is a necessary, a VITAL, and a wonderful, Joyous stage in God's Plan of Evolution, wherein we learn what it means to experience CHOICE, and ultimately to yield our own desires, even our very will, our Identity, for that of something Higher, and Greater - the Greatest Good of the Greatest number.

[Bruce Michael]

Dear Br.Andrew,
>So, looking backward, so to speak, we can see our own past within the >Animal Kingdom, as the unconscious Group Soul slowly developed towards >Individuality, proceeding along the lines of domestication, until eventually >a pet dog or cat reached the APEX of Animal Evolution.

There is a theosophical doctrine that the animals came from Man and not the other way around.
The animals were "cast off" by primitive Man and this process will continue in the future. The animals then, are our brothers.

>Instead, we are moving away from a sense of "I-ness" (or Ahamkara, in >Sanskrit terms), and TOWARDS a sense of "WE-ness."

The development of the 'I' has of course led to an increasing sense of aloneness. Not only have we been separated from other humans but we are also in isolation from the spiritual beings. As we develop we will be able to return to a real sense of community with all, but this time with a full sense of individuality.

The point is, we don't revert into a great soup-mix of beings; we retain of sense of self. I mean, what is the point of developing the 'I' only to lose it completely again?

Fond Regards,
Br.Bruce

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

There is a theosophical doctrine that the animals came from Man and not the other way around.
The animals were "cast off" by primitive Man and this process will continue in the future. The animals then, are our brothers.

True, Br Bruce, but this refers to their forms, and not to the SOUL aspect. The Consciousness, the Evolving Life within the form, emerges from the mineral, through the vegetable, then the animal ... and finally the Human Kingdom. We "graduate" as Souls (and not as forms), and move on to the 5th Kingdom (where we no longer wear the Biblical "coats of skin" created during the earlier Root Races). So we "cast off" the animal forms, on planet Earth, yet we also evolved from within similar forms, AS consciousness, either on the Moon Chain - or upon Earth, in Lemurian or Atlantean times.

I think Steiner taught some of this, though I see things about Saturn, and that's way beyond me!!!

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

Instead, we are moving away from a sense of "I-ness" (or Ahamkara, in >Sanskrit terms), and TOWARDS a sense of "WE-ness."

The development of the 'I' has of course led to an increasing sense of aloneness. Not only have we been separated from other humans but we are also in isolation from the spiritual beings. As we develop we will be able to return to a real sense of community with all, but this time with a full sense of individuality.

The point is, we don't revert into a great soup-mix of beings; we retain of sense of self. I mean, what is the point of developing the 'I' only to lose it completely again?

Fond Regards,
Br.Bruce

Yep. Somehow this gets completely misunderstood, though, as we ponder Eastern teachings. And yet, to be certain, Christ exemplified what it means to live, walk and breathe AS A SOUL, completely and fully GROUP-Conscious, yet also as a Great Individuality. We simply do not have anything with which to compare His state of awareness ... from our normal, everyday experience.

Even the disciples could not understand what the heck He was talking about most of the time, though I'm sure they all had glimpses.

I would go one step further, and suggest that the reason so many people cannot understand God, is that we cast god in our image ... wherein lower ego still rules out, and wins the day, over Higher (most of the time). Once we begin to balance the needs of the many, with the needs of the one, it will become increasingly clear that the needs of the separated self can never outweigh the Greatest Good of the Greatest number (or of the Whole) ... Star Trek philosophy aside.

But we must first learn to uncreate god in our own image, and realize that it was form GOD's image, that we were created! Not so easy a thing to accomplish, considering that the Mystery of Identity is not made fully clear to us until a very high Initiation ...

Thus is the teaching of the Masters from HPB's day forward ... but this does not mean we cannot learn to Love, and to do as Christ did (or as the other Masters have done), even today.

Love and Light,

~andrew

[Bruce Michael]

Hi Andrew,
>I think Steiner taught some of this, though I see things about Saturn, and >that's way beyond me!!!

These diagrams are from Max Heindel's Rosicrucian Cosmo Conception- but they are based on Steiner's teachings:
-Br. Bruce

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

Hi Andrew,
>I think Steiner taught some of this, though I see things about Saturn, and >that's way beyond me!!!

These diagrams are from Max Heindel's Rosicrucian Cosmo Conception- but they are based on Steiner's teachings:
-Br. Bruce

Yes, I'm quite familiar with these diagrams, Bruce ... I have a copy of the above volume.

One small problem, however. Steiner, and Heindel, whomever they may attribute these diagrams and teachings to, will have to explain to my satisfaction why they differ with the presentation of the Tibetan Master. The latter gave out, via Alice Bailey, and even via H.P. Blavatsky beforehand, a different indication as to when the Saturn period and other periods come into play.

To wit:


Naturally, as an Anthroposophist, you may have a certain allegiance to Steiner, Heindel, etc. My own belief is that their teachings may have been inspired, but I will - naturally enough - prefer those given out via Alice Bailey. There is agreement between Theosophists and Anthroposophists that the Moon Chain immediately preceded the Earth Chain. But DK (Djwhal Khul, The Tibetan) indicates the order as being:

1. Neptune
2. Venus
3. Saturn
4. Earth
5. Mercury
6. Mars
7. Jupiter

Note that instead of labeling the 3rd Chain as `Moon,' DK has indicated `Saturn,' for reasons which I cannot, offhand, recall. I have never read A Treatise on Cosmic Fire all the way through, but you may rest assured that he makes it quite clear that the Moon Chain preceded Earth ... regardless of what we see in the label of the above diagram.

Chains 1, 2, 5, 6 & 7 ... would seem to differ, however, between the two Teachings.
(I would also comment, and commit to our notice, that DK's chart provides a geometrical aspect which, imho, veils much information that the insightful student should be able to discern. I do not say that I have discerned it, but we may safely assume that his charts are useful even for the Initiate who seeks to take his development further. The Tibetan Master, btw, is one of the most knowledgeable in all the Earth Hierarchy, regarding astrology and related matters ... such as we are delving into. Another Master, the Senior-Most of the Hierarchy, Who is known as an expert on Astrology, is Lord Agastya, Master Jupiter, Master Narayan, The `Old Gentleman' - as HPB knew Him, the Rishi of the Nilgiri Hills, hence Lord Nylghara, etc.)

Interesting!!!

~Andrew