Does physics leave room for the spiritual?

[kagosielu]

People often refer to ghost and spirits and all the religious like as supernatural. Meaning outside the realm of science, so it can't be proven or disproven. But what if it's not?

I mean, with all the stuff I read about quantum mechanics(with even that, it's still pretty confusing to me, but I love it), it seems more that ever science has become mystical.

I was just thinking. Even though we can many things in electrons proton and neutrons and the element made from them, we've learned there's much more to the universe than just the stuff on the periodic table. There's gravity, there's dark matter, there's dark energy. Could there be room in there for what would be the spirit?

If there's more more to the universe than atoms, maybe that leaves room for the spirit too, right? And maybe someday, it can be scientifically found and proven. And then we'll have a name for it, just like we have names like "quarks", "axion", "glueball", "meson", "plasmon" and so forth.

Am I right here? Or just completely ignorant about science?

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by kagosielu

People often refer to ghost and spirits and all the religious like as supernatural. Meaning outside the realm of science, so it can't be proven or disproven. But what if it's not?

I mean, with all the stuff I read about quantum mechanics(with even that, it's still pretty confusing to me, but I love it), it seems more that ever science has become mystical.

I was just thinking. Even though we can many things in electrons proton and neutrons and the element made from them, we've learned there's much more to the universe than just the stuff on the periodic table. There's gravity, there's dark matter, there's dark energy. Could there be room in there for what would be the spirit?

If there's more more to the universe than atoms, maybe that leaves room for the spirit too, right? And maybe someday, it can be scientifically found and proven. And then we'll have a name for it, just like we have names like "quarks", "axion", "glueball", "meson", "plasmon" and so forth.

Am I right here? Or just completely ignorant about science?

You may be right. But even if we were to find and name that which we today regard as supernatural, in answering such questions new mysteries will be created. There is always another question, always a beyond. And I say good!! How tedious life could become without questions to ponder.

Tao

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by kagosielu

People often refer to ghost and spirits and all the religious like as supernatural. Meaning outside the realm of science, so it can't be proven or disproven. But what if it's not?

I mean, with all the stuff I read about quantum mechanics(with even that, it's still pretty confusing to me, but I love it), it seems more that ever science has become mystical.

I was just thinking. Even though we can many things in electrons proton and neutrons and the element made from them, we've learned there's much more to the universe than just the stuff on the periodic table. There's gravity, there's dark matter, there's dark energy. Could there be room in there for what would be the spirit?

If there's more more to the universe than atoms, maybe that leaves room for the spirit too, right? And maybe someday, it can be scientifically found and proven. And then we'll have a name for it, just like we have names like "quarks", "axion", "glueball", "meson", "plasmon" and so forth.

Am I right here? Or just completely ignorant about science?

Hi Kago,

Quantum physics is explained, for the average dummy like me, in analogical terms. IOW, it's explained in little anecdotal analogies like the Schroedinger's cat analogy. When you convert an object-less, or non local reality to an analogy of an object based reality there are always going to be problems in the storyline. The first problem is that it starts to sound as if Classical reality can be manipulated by an observer. This may be true metaphysically, but it is not true physically.

What is spirituality?

Chris

[Paladin]

Rather than trying to define spirituality as what it is, it might be easier to talk about what it isn't.
For example, I might observe that spirituality seems independent of syllogism though it might include it.
Accordingly I might be able to say that spirituality isn't linear.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Paladin

I might be able to say that spirituality isn't linear.

You can safely remove the "might be able to".

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

The first problem is that it starts to sound as if Classical reality can be manipulated by an observer. This may be true metaphysically, but it is not true physically.

There are now many stringently monitored experiments that prove beyond doubt that a variety of animals are psychically linked to their owners. Such abilities are commonly, in the scientific community, dismissed as metaphysical. The brain functions of the animals and the mechanisms they employ for such remote viewing is a mystery to us. Classical reality does not explain all observables. In human ESP tests the results consistently show that the average ability is about 5% above random chance. A small figure but over the course of the 1000s of subjects that have taken part it is significant. Some individuals are able to get much higher scores. It could be that classical reality is a convenient rather than an accurate way to look at things.
The implications for mankind's foray into the world of quantum mechanics may turn out to be of little significance for day to day life. On the other hand it may be a revolution of the highest order that changes the whole way we perceive reality. We have so far only discovered there is a box of tricks, who knows what we will find when we really open it.

Tao

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

You can safely remove the "might be able to".

Yes, I surely can. Having established the obvious then, what is left?

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

The first problem is that it starts to sound as if Classical reality can be manipulated by an observer. This may be true metaphysically, but it is not true physically.

What is spirituality?

Chris

Um, observation does have an effect...
Young's Two Slit Experiments

...and then there is the problem with that darned cat...{Schrödinger's cat, that is...}

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Yes, I surely can. Having established the obvious then, what is left?

A tool to aid cohesion of group in a social animal.

Tao

[China Cat Sunflower]

The fact that different properties are observed under different sets of experimental conditions doesn't prove that observation changes anything intrinsic.

Chris

[gp1628]

Originally Posted by kagosielu

People often refer to ghost and spirits and all the religious like as supernatural. Meaning outside the realm of science, so it can't be proven or disproven. But what if it's not?

I mean, with all the stuff I read about quantum mechanics(with even that, it's still pretty confusing to me, but I love it), it seems more that ever science has become mystical.

I was just thinking. Even though we can many things in electrons proton and neutrons and the element made from them, we've learned there's much more to the universe than just the stuff on the periodic table. There's gravity, there's dark matter, there's dark energy. Could there be room in there for what would be the spirit?

If there's more more to the universe than atoms, maybe that leaves room for the spirit too, right? And maybe someday, it can be scientifically found and proven. And then we'll have a name for it, just like we have names like "quarks", "axion", "glueball", "meson", "plasmon" and so forth.

Am I right here? Or just completely ignorant about science?

Quantum Theory gets more fun than that. They have decided that there are 10 dimensions plus 1. The 10 dimensions "stack" and we only know less than half of them. And the added one is for Chaos where none of the rules in the other 10 hold true.

Also lately they have decided that the Big Bang is to be replaced with something like a Big Whoosh. That two membranes (usually called just Branes) touched causing a huge influx of matter and energy into our brane (now our universe).

So old proofs such as "Matter and Energy cannot be created or destroyed but only converted" need to be re-examined. Its still true enough but the items it was used to disprove need a new view now that we have new places it could come from. Just because we could not measure such things before no longer makes them untrue.


Gandalf Parker
--
"If God created the Universe then where did he stand while doing it? Huh? HAHA!"
"He stood in the other brane and poked his finger thru. Please try to keep up."

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

A tool to aid cohesion of group in a social animal.

Tao

Well that does put things into a nice, neat little package doesn't it?

[cyberpi]

A scientist might realize that with all things that use energy there is a resulting product that can never be measured with science. That physical something can not be independently measured... it is in spirit.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

You can safely remove the "might be able to".

Disavowing rational proof for the power of a desired assumption... I see.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Disavowing rational proof for the power of a desired assumption... I see.

I would expect you to see.... being such an expert at it yourself

[Dream]

I don't believe in ghosts or demons or goblins, but there are some phenomena that are hard to explain. I suspect that the way our memories are processed in our brains is akin to a destructive holographic interaction. What we imagine in our Science fiction about 'Solid holograms' could be similar to what happens in our brains, and it would explain how we simulate things, make projections, psychically connect to other animals, etc. I've had a few really good precognitive warnings (but also two times I falsely panicked about a loved-one's safety), and possibly had some psychic connection with animals through visualization. These experiences I had aren't things I've explored, though. They just happened. I think the easiest animals to test for psychic connections would be cats, because of their group hunting style.