Do you need a master, guru or group?

[AndrewX]

Much along the line of what you've posted, earl, I feel that a Guide is necessary at certain points, to help us with that little matter of Perspective.

And that can be humbling, yet it is can also be so tremendously empowering ... uplifting ... and Joyous.

[Neemai]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

sentient beings have myraid dispositions and capacities and require teachings and methodologies which help them in their spiritual journey. i am not of the view that disparaging anothers method of praxis is of benefit even if we may have the view that the others practice is completely misguided.

in my own tradition of Vajrayana Buddhism the need for a teacher/guru is stated in no uncertain terms as explicitly necessary.

by and large, this is the overall position of the Buddhadharma and we find many suttas relating the need for beginning Buddhists to be around Buddhists that have spent more time on the path.. what we term "spiritual companions".

Namaste Vajra,

From the perspective of Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition I'm totally with you on both counts.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

as to how the question relates to me... i am in need of a teacher and, fortunately, found mine! though, somewhat unfortunately, it was not until after the physical form had ceased to arise in this world system

... and can also have sympathies on this count. Thought you might like this:

He reasons ill who says that the great saints die when thou are living still in sound! The spiritual masters die to live, and living, spread the holy names around!

Best wishes,


... Neemai

[earl]

Originally Posted by Francis king

yes, but what about the subtle ego traps of the ppl who write the books u recommend?? of course they all have a vested interest in supporting such notions, don't they?

the dharma is the teacher, not the man in the blanket sitting on the hill... what makes his opinion, as this is all we have, opinions, what makes his more valid than mine, to myself?

Is that not foolishness?

Buddha himself says we should not cling... we cling to these masters like they are the wee crocks of gold at the end of the rainbow... why? are we not able to think for ourselves? Can we not read, write, judge for ourselves? The dharma is out there- whole reams of it- for free- gratis, no cash dollar needed. It is free, and given freely. If it is not, it is not dharma.

There are millions of books out there that talk about buddhism, although in truth, they don't really talk about buddhism. They talk about one man's interpretation of buddhism. You can read thousands of them and learn five lines of sutra. Is that buddhism?

I don't think it is.

I was tempted to ask about the apparent contradictions in your posts earlier, francis, and gave in to the temptation now. So, if you were intending to dissuade others from opening themselves to any form of spiritual guidance, what was up with your hearty endorsement of this vajrayana teacher's stuff?

Hey buddhists: fancy some at-home "Gampopa's Ornament of Great Realisation study"?

have a good one, earl

[Francis king]

I have no problem with ppl learning from others, earl, as that is what we all do, and no- I am not trying to dissuade others from opening themselves up to any form of anything- my gripe is against those who think teacher knows best when he often doesn't... is all... I have met many ppl along the way who have influenced me, and I accept that as part of the human condition, but I do not hero worship them, as they are just human beings, like the rest of us...

by the same token, I would not line up in a neat row and curtsey to the king/queen either, regardless of how much I was supposed to, and again for the same reasons... I am no worse or better than anyone else, and I'll be damned if I'm going to tie myself up in knots pleasing others and towing the party line just for the sake of it...

...most members of a heirarchy have an interest in maintaining the heirarchy so they can maintain their status...

by birth one is not a brahmin, by deed one is a brahmin... this is my point...

i remember meeting a "guru", whose name I will not mention, and I felt he was looking at my breasts... I attempted to put this thought to the back of my mind, as, after all, he was a guru, wasn't he, and didnt think like that, of course.... but.... well, he actually was looking at my boobs... he had a thing for boobs, and later got thrown out of his gang because he was feeling up the ladies...he wrote books, toured the world telling ppl about the dharma, and preyed on the weak simpering middle class neurotic ladies, so he could feel their boobs! oh! and they paid him too, usually, via donations...hahhaa...

did I tell u about meeting another supposed "master", who deliberately ensnared ppl into his cult and persuaded them to give up their houses, etc, to build a church? which he did? only he also built a big house for himself too, and then disposed of the members who had paid for it by creating scandals about them and having the group turn against them...?

Did I tell u about the master I met one time who wanted me to join his gang so he could marry me off and I would make good babies for Jesus, or the master who stole my shoes and wouldn't let me leave the ashram we were in...?

I have met plenty of people who have big flocks around them of earnest devotees, and the masters themselves are involved in naughty things, or evil doers, playing the lost sheep, and I hate it...

everyone of those ppl in those organisations thought they were right to trust these men, who, by virtue of their status, where beyond stain, beyond fault, and the majority of ppl involved in these organisations are weak, or sick, or desperate, or disparate and become blind to what is really going on...

now... I posted the "Gampopa's ornament" pc, because... online buddhists study seems interesting... the Kaygu's at Samye Ling are not a cult- they do charitable works with their profits, it doesnt all go on a cushy life for their masters... they are "worthy" buddhists, in my humble opinion, and I treasure them for the precious jewels they are... that does not mean I have to agree with every aspect of their presentation of doctrine, and I don't... it simply means I thought it might interest others here...

is all...

I am not especially fond of vajrayana... I think it isn't the quickest, but the slowest vehicle, and I think it is, in the main, overworked... I think fundamentally, dharma is much simpler, and easier than that, and I think it involves study of the texts, and ethics, and meditation, and nothing else... I do not have a lineage, so to speak, and don't think it is necessary either...

although plenty will disagree...

[earl]

Always the potential down-side to entrusting our learning in the hands of the guidance of another. Hero worship-any credible spiritual leader who encouraged/fostered that sends up a red flag. Like Jesus said, "by their fruits shall ye know them." earl

[flowperson]

Hi Francis...Yeah, all too often well meant spiritual teachings are often wrapped up inside of all-too-fallible human packages. Of course it it so confusing when one of these beings comes into your life somehow and says, "do what I say, and not what I do".

In The US it seems that television-based spiritual teachers have an especially difficult time with this.

BTW, I've been wondering about your brother's situations. How's that going, any better?

peace...flow....

[Francis king]

yes, indeed, ye shall know them by their fruits... its easy to talk the talk, and make it seem u have something important to say, but, in truth, for me at least, if you want buddhism, or any other -ism for that matter, u are much better off learning as far as ur own capabilities will take u first, before u look to others... especially in this day and age, with the wealth of knowledge we have at our fingertips, its not hard...

yes, ppl can guide u, but first look at who and what ur following... blind faith is just gilded ignorance...

nagarjuna says... if subject and object (have no inherent existence), then what is there to praise and who to praise it?

for me, I want my master to actually know more than me... so far, on the quest for a master, a "proper" one, so to speak, I have found only two ppl who come up to speed- both buddhists, and both from entirely seperate traditions... one is very knowledgeable about dharma, the other is knowledgeable about , erm, "the powers", shall we say... of course, my wild ego says "take the man with the magic powers", but my sensible self says- "dharma is king", so who knows what will happen, if anything...

as for my bro, flow, yes, he's okay, thanks for asking...lost his job, forced to stop drinking- result! lol... the Lord works in mysterious ways, hey..?

so u see, ppl, I'm not that different from the rest of u... I'm on the same quest... just maybe a bit more choosy than some... !

[flowperson]

Hi Francis...Yeah, so many of us here are in the same boat. I'm the same way. I pay attention to things to the extent my heart informs me that it is true and not false. When alarm bells start going off, I move on for my self-preservation. So happy to near that your Bro is moving on with his life, such as it is.

flow....

[Neemai]

Originally Posted by Francis king

I have no problem with ppl learning from others, earl, as that is what we all do, and no- I am not trying to dissuade others from opening themselves up to any form of anything- my gripe is against those who think teacher knows best when he often doesn't...

Unfortunately all of what Francis says does really go on in the "guru" business. In all walks of life and religions I'm sure. However, in my experience when you meet someone who is actually 'for real', then that meeting is the most priceless thing you can practically have.

No amount of logical arguments or personal endorsements from other people ("oh he's a really great guru" etc.. etc..) mean a thing - it's just the sheer reality of when it happens. "What proof it wasn't just your imagination?" I hear people shout - well if you truthfully see your consciousness becomes more purified (short & long-term) as a result, then it has worked. Simple as that.


... Neemai

[earl]

francis, as to Buddhism, no actual practicing Buddhist would ever suggest that someone fairly new to the Dharmic path should rely only on themselves, if a teacher can be found-quite the opposite. Even Nagarjuna needed one when he started out.
Biography of Nagarjuna

take care, earl

[AndrewX]

I might should bite my tongue, but I will go on to say it ...

... the person who thinks s/he can `raise the serpent-fire' successfully & safely, and direct it to the proper centers, in the proper order, at the proper time ...

... and all of this without the assistance of one who has already done so ...

-- has apparently come across some mistaken information.

That's about as concrete a reason that I think anyone can give, for WHY we all need a `Guru,' at a certain point along the spiritual Path.

Yes, it lies considerably ahead for the vast majority of us (I wouldn't imagine that for myself for MANY more lifetimes to come) ... and umm - when someone here has already accomlished the task in question, do let us know about it, if you still find that the rules of Initiation do not prevent it. Eh?

I am reminded of a quote by the Brithish mystic Laurence Oliphant, who likened certain occult experiments to "an ignorant child going
into a powder magazine with a lighted match in its hand." This is as good an image as any, though I suppose we might say today -- that tampering with the Serpent-Fire is like setting a small thermonuclear device in the fireplace to see just how protective might be its outer casing.

STILL feel like walking the Path without a Guru? Sure.

I think all the points made thus far have been valid, each from a certain point of view, given certain circumstances, and along certain stages of the Path. And so, too, is what I've just said - a valid observation, in precisely the same way.

Most of us can pretty well ignore the specifics for quite a long time to come. Having never even heard of this particular energy (and aspect of our psyche), I don't expect any concensus of opinion ... but then, that's beside the point.

All of these things, of course, will take care of themselves, for as Chris has already pointed out -- "When the student is ready, the teacher appears."

There may be some who think that they will never need a Teacher, but I would have to argue that if that were the case, they would already be completely enlightened! As indeed, would all of us!

Nor is there a simple, failsafe formula, for precisely this same reason -- if one existed, enlightenment would be no challenge, and we could all just as well snap our fingers - and reach the Goal.

Riding that train, becoming the Path, is certainly part of reaching the Goal, yet I'm pretty convinced this track has neither beginning, nor ending, just periods of manvantara (Activity, Manifestation), and pralaya (Rest, Return to Source).

And actually, the closest thing to a formula for Spiritual `success' (Advancement, the Hastening toward Enlightenment) already has been provided, MANY times, even several, different ways - in the past 150 years or so ... but the vast majority of those who have attempted to follow it have found the requirements far too demanding. Thus, they have benefitted, and progressed, but will have to complete their growth in future lifetimes - as must we all.

Some few have managed, and have testified that the Teachings provided are exactly what Humanity is seeking, but who wants to WORK, when it's much easier to play ... and pray. I know that sounds harsh, nor did I say that I think prayer is "ineffective" or "pointless." But if you familiarize yourself with the requirements for the `fast-track' to spiritual enlightenment ... it isn't exactly like baking a batch of Nestle, Tollhouse cookies.

Oh that it were? I dunno. Sounds pretty unfulfilling, to me. I don't WANT an easy road to Heaven, personally. Sounds cheap, pointless, a real LETDOWN, even in comparison with everything else I've lived, learned, experienced and aspired to -- here on planet earth ... in THIS lifetime even, thus far.

Oh, you've been a nice boy, why don't you sit down with these angels, and sing happy songs for the rest of eternity.

No thanks.

Anyway, that's what I started out to say, plus a couple more points for giggles and grins. Jibe with anyone?

cheers,

~andrew

[Bruce Michael]

Originally Posted by Neemai

Unfortunately all of what Francis says does really go on in the "guru" business. In all walks of life and religions I'm sure. However, in my experience when you meet someone who is actually 'for real', then that meeting is the most priceless thing you can practically have.

Shalom,
It doesn't discount the fact that as well as the forgeries, there are real Masters.

And in the Theosophical Movement there are instructions from these Masters, such as:
LIGHT ON THE PATH - Part 1

[greymare]

I like the train/railway story. It feels right. I like to talk to people of differnt faiths mainly because I want to know why they believe what they believe..... I probably ask a lot of stupid questions. I get answers but im not really any closer to a conclusion. Now after reading this new thread and all the posts Ive finally realized for me THAT is what its all about. Looking, Looking. Asking Asking. the penny has dropped. DUH. lol love the Grey

[Francis king]

look... ppl don't find out about buddhism in a vacumm... they are quite capable of guiding themselves to where they need to go- that "essential nature", so to speak, is already there, supposedly... its all there, u just need to "wake up"... and what do u wake up to? U wake up to urself. U don't wake up to another, do u?

a bodhisattva, " (a person who has) bodhi- awakened (to the) sattva, (the sat- being, tva "I") should then, theoretically, know themselves... what use then is another here?

maybe in 5BC, when I didnt have a pc, or a local library, or bookstores, maybe I would need a guru. Maybe I would need someone to tell me of such things before I understood, but... there is internet, and books... if u find something which u don't understand, u look it up. This is how u study. Eventually, things will fall into place, you will understand.

I am relatively well educated. I can read, write, opine, philosophize, and I fail to appreciate how my interpretation of existence and life, etc is any more or any less valid than anyone elses... just because a man is in a robe and has no hair it does not mean he understands dharma. If you think he knows more simply because of his racial characteristics or his outfit, then you are fooled by mistaken appearance and do not see things "as they are". Just because you have been born in Tibet, it does not give you an automatic pass to understanding, does it?

did buddha, mohammed, jesus, have a guru? did they? what made them come up with their own thing, then, ppl? or are they not men after all, like the rest of us?

why not forge ur own path, make ur own way?

[_Z_]

francis

well said! ~ i have no need to add anything to that.

hmm apart from; whilst i don’t see the need for any intelligent person to have a ‘master’ and indeed i find the idea quite patronising, i do think temples and monesteries are good. i would love to be able to escape life’s ravages in some kind of hermatage, and also be around people of like mind. however there are no universal temples around, and beside one could ask if life is our temple - as much as our body is?