Do you need a master, guru or group?

[_Z_]

i don’t think we need masters as such, and that we all have our own inner deity. by listening to the inner truth we can learn anything anyone else can teach us and on a more intimate level.
however it is very helpful to have guidance as long as that doesn’t amount to a constricted perspective.

i think humanity is moving on from thinking of others as lords etc.


interesting topic


_Z_

[mee]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

It must be pleasant to be among like minded believers. I sometimes wish for that. But I'm different.

Chris

For me i find it very good ,

Look! How good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity PSALM 133;1

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

It must be pleasant to be among like minded believers. I sometimes wish for that. But I'm different.

Chris

Gee Chris, why couldn't you just be a non-conformist like everyone else?

Seriously though, I find it interesting that we all seem to need a belief, a mental construct of some kind, believing that it reflects the universe or reality as it is. The irony being that the question " how do we stand outside of reality to view it? keeps popping up , and it is questions like this that keep me from believing anything whole heartedly.
Perhaps there is only the question, and we can keep inquiring leaving the end open.

[_Z_]

Seriously though, I find it interesting that we all seem to need a belief, a mental construct of some kind, believing that it reflects the universe or reality as it is

interesting point, probably a thread in itself. i think much of it comes down to our fears, when there are groups offering a release from that, it is a way to find a release. its a shame that no one can in truth claim to offer such redemption.

[Neemai]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

It must be pleasant to be among like minded believers. I sometimes wish for that. But I'm different.

Chris

Hi Chris - what's your take on life me ol' China? Or please point me to another thread if you've spelled it out somewhere already. Save your typing fingers...

Namaste,

... Neemai

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Neemai

Hi Chris - what's your take on life me ol' China? Or please point me to another thread if you've spelled it out somewhere already. Save your typing fingers...

Namaste,

... Neemai

Oh, you know...I'm not anything. I'm not aligned or affiliated with any group or particular philosophy. I don't think there's a label for me. I'm just kinda passing through and enjoying the scenery. I like to have fun. I'm interested in how things work. All of life seems a spiritual pursuit to me. That's pretty much it.

Chris

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

sentient beings have myraid dispositions and capacities and require teachings and methodologies which help them in their spiritual journey. i am not of the view that disparaging anothers method of praxis is of benefit even if we may have the view that the others practice is completely misguided.

in my own tradition of Vajrayana Buddhism the need for a teacher/guru is stated in no uncertain terms as explicitly necessary.

by and large, this is the overall position of the Buddhadharma and we find many suttas relating the need for beginning Buddhists to be around Buddhists that have spent more time on the path.. what we term "spiritual companions". we find this to be especially true amongst the teachings of the initial yanas which deal primarily with the Vinya and the monastics.

as it has been mentioned previously, the Buddhadharma is likened to a raft which one can use to get to the Other Shore. there are many, many types of rafts that can be built to cross to the Other Shore and some beings have left their raft behind so we can use it as well. some beings, of course, know how to build rafts of their own and do not require the raft of another. the salient point here, in my estimation, is that the raft is left behind once the Other Shore has been reached.

to paraphrase Han-shan (Cold Mountain): all of the words of Buddhas and Zen masters are expedients that point to the inherent nature of mind... they are like bits of tile used to knock on the door which we then discard as we enter.

of course, it should be noted, within the paradigm of the Buddhadharma "awakening" is not the end of the praxis nor does such awakening indicate that the being has completely put an end to the cycle. beings that have experienced Samadhi/Satori have yet to attain Annutara Samyak Sambodhi and therefore are urged to continue to practice the basic aspects of the teaching.

Zen master Haikun explains that the initial moments of awakening serve to give us confidence in the end goal of the Dharma though we must continually be diligent and circumspect in our daily practice. the initial experiences of awakening are said to require caring for in the manner in which one would care for an infant.

as to how the question relates to me... i am in need of a teacher and, fortunately, found mine! though, somewhat unfortunately, it was not until after the physical form had ceased to arise in this world system

metta,

~v

[China Cat Sunflower]

O.K., who agrees with this statement? When the student is ready, the teacher appears

I have many masters. They come and they go. I do not specialize in discipline. All discipline must eventually be abandoned, so I save a lot of time that way. I'm interested in how things work. I approach this from the bottom up. I'm keeping in mind a group of apparent archetypes, but I want to see what the phenomena do of themselves and then work upwards, otherwise my hypothesis are pre-weighted. I don't believe in whole systems. I don't believe in syncretism because to me that's a recipe for reaching the lowest common denominator. I watch and I learn. I try to get myself out of the way of the observation process.

Chris

[earl]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Namaste all,

sentient beings have myraid dispositions and capacities and require teachings and methodologies which help them in their spiritual journey. i am not of the view that disparaging anothers method of praxis is of benefit even if we may have the view that the others practice is completely misguided.

in my own tradition of Vajrayana Buddhism the need for a teacher/guru is stated in no uncertain terms as explicitly necessary.

by and large, this is the overall position of the Buddhadharma and we find many suttas relating the need for beginning Buddhists to be around Buddhists that have spent more time on the path.. what we term "spiritual companions". we find this to be especially true amongst the teachings of the initial yanas which deal primarily with the Vinya and the monastics.

as it has been mentioned previously, the Buddhadharma is likened to a raft which one can use to get to the Other Shore. there are many, many types of rafts that can be built to cross to the Other Shore and some beings have left their raft behind so we can use it as well. some beings, of course, know how to build rafts of their own and do not require the raft of another. the salient point here, in my estimation, is that the raft is left behind once the Other Shore has been reached.

to paraphrase Han-shan (Cold Mountain): all of the words of Buddhas and Zen masters are expedients that point to the inherent nature of mind... they are like bits of tile used to knock on the door which we then discard as we enter.

of course, it should be noted, within the paradigm of the Buddhadharma "awakening" is not the end of the praxis nor does such awakening indicate that the being has completely put an end to the cycle. beings that have experienced Samadhi/Satori have yet to attain Annutara Samyak Sambodhi and therefore are urged to continue to practice the basic aspects of the teaching.

Zen master Haikun explains that the initial moments of awakening serve to give us confidence in the end goal of the Dharma though we must continually be diligent and circumspect in our daily practice. the initial experiences of awakening are said to require caring for in the manner in which one would care for an infant.

as to how the question relates to me... i am in need of a teacher and, fortunately, found mine! though, somewhat unfortunately, it was not until after the physical form had ceased to arise in this world system

metta,

~v

V-care to elaborate? Wishing you well. gassho, Earl

[Francis king]

Look around u, one and all.. are there any here fit to be your master?

Do they not suffer, do they not doubt, do they not feel fear and get sick and age and die? Who amongst them is truely worthy of your unceasing devotion, your complete trust, who among them is fit to carry your mind, and heart and soul in their hands?

None...

The only real spiritual master is you... experience, time, and life, are the teachers, your mind, heart and soul it's pupil... anything else is erroneous... let's not mistake the finger pointing at the moon for the moon itself, friends...

[earl]

When I studied some of the history of Celtic Christianity I discovered they're the folks that essentially invented "confession." That is, they established a tradition of anamchara-spiritual friend-which meant that 2 or more practitioners would travel the journey together with each, in turn, turning to the other to share their understandings and misunderstanding with the other acting as mirror, supporter, and "corrective influence" for the other in the spiritual journey. The problem with not obtaining any input outside of one's own inevitable limited, partial understanding is we are then in effect, wittingly or not, allowing or "selves," our "ego" to be our guide. That, of course, can allow us to fall into all sorts of subtle ego traps which we can mistake for spiritual realization. Ultimately it is up to all of us individually to reflect on all of our experiences and make of them what we will. But in a sense the spiritual journey has never been a solo affair. Sort of reminds me of the title of an early Western book on zen-by Stephen Batchelor I believe- "Being Alone Together." earl

[Francis king]

yes, but what about the subtle ego traps of the ppl who write the books u recommend?? of course they all have a vested interest in supporting such notions, don't they?

the dharma is the teacher, not the man in the blanket sitting on the hill... what makes his opinion, as this is all we have, opinions, what makes his more valid than mine, to myself?

Is that not foolishness?

Buddha himself says we should not cling... we cling to these masters like they are the wee crocks of gold at the end of the rainbow... why? are we not able to think for ourselves? Can we not read, write, judge for ourselves? The dharma is out there- whole reams of it- for free- gratis, no cash dollar needed. It is free, and given freely. If it is not, it is not dharma.

There are millions of books out there that talk about buddhism, although in truth, they don't really talk about buddhism. They talk about one man's interpretation of buddhism. You can read thousands of them and learn five lines of sutra. Is that buddhism?

I don't think it is.

[earl]

What the Buddha taught was not to cling to "self" and he taught that to thousands of folks for 50 years in many different ways knowing how tenacious the deluded sense of self was. Doubt he'd have invested that much time in a teaching project if he didn't think most folks could stand to learn a thing or two. Otherwise he'd have just continued to hang out under the tree. earl

[intrepidlover]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

It must be pleasant to be among like minded believers. I sometimes wish for that. But I'm different.

Chris

For most of my life, I sought vainly for a body of like minded believers. However, like yourself, not only do I not need that but I don't think there IS any group which shares my personal spiritual views, which are open-ended anyhow and subject to change according to new information or experiences.

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I have no master, guru, method, organization, sect, or safety net. It's just me.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by earl

Sort of reminds me of the title of an early Western book on zen-by Stephen Batchelor I believe- "Being Alone Together." earl

Alone With Others; an existential approach to Buddhism

Awesome book, and a great read