Do you call yourself a Christian? - Page 2

neosnoia · 11-27-2006, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

Now you may not call me a Christian, but my question is, Do you call yourself a Christian and why?

Not anymore. I find the term is too narrowly defined and carries too much baggage to use it as descriptive of my view. I don't have any problem with others that do, but *I* don't feel honest when I use it.

path_of_one · 12-07-2006, 05:16 AM

Yes and no. Depends on the context and how I feel the other person will think about labels.

I've had too many incidences of others telling me I wasn't a Christian, or some variation of that theme- I was a weak Christian, or not as Christian as they were, etc. I've given up my attachment to the label.

Ultimately, I am a follower of Christ. To me, that means I am a Christian. To others, my other beliefs and appreciation of a variety of other faiths negates my sincere desire and effort to follow Christ. At this point, they are welcome to make that judgement if they so choose. I have come to know that others' opinions don't matter much- there's only One whose judgement ultimately counts.

wil · 12-07-2006, 02:43 PM

Seems similar paths...bring us to simliar places...

cyberpi · 12-09-2006, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I have come to know that others' opinions don't matter much- there's only One whose judgement ultimately counts.

Whose judgement do you think counts? I think to be a follower of Christ requires accepting other people's judgement and opinions. That does not mean that my own opinion and judgement can't be different... but I have to listen to, consider, accept, and even follow other people's judgement and opinions now and then. I think Jesus called that Faith.

I don't know what salvation means to people, but at the separation of goats and lambs, I see that it involves relationships with people... like the least of people.

Quahom1 · 12-10-2006, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Whose judgement do you think counts? I think to be a follower of Christ requires accepting other people's judgement and opinions. That does not mean that my own opinion and judgement can't be different... but I have to listen to, consider, accept, and even follow other people's judgement and opinions now and then. I think Jesus called that Faith.

I don't know what salvation means to people, but at the separation of goats and lambs, I see that it involves relationships with people... like the least of people.

What you think (pertaining to a personal GOD), doesn't matter.

You can express an opinion, but that does not make it fact. We do not accept others' opinions, or judgemets...

And yes, if you want to be on the Christian forum, you have to listen to, consider others' thoughts.

v/r

Joshua

path_of_one · 12-10-2006, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Whose judgement do you think counts? I think to be a follower of Christ requires accepting other people's judgement and opinions. That does not mean that my own opinion and judgement can't be different... but I have to listen to, consider, accept, and even follow other people's judgement and opinions now and then. I think Jesus called that Faith.

I don't know what salvation means to people, but at the separation of goats and lambs, I see that it involves relationships with people... like the least of people.

I was saying that although I am open to having dialogue with other people, and am very interested in what they have to say, others' judgements of my status (in terms of salvation) are irrelevant.

I do consider others' opinions, and I readily accept that anyone can have any opinion they choose. That's why I don't try to convince people I should be labeled Christian anymore. If they want to label me Y instead, that is their perogative. I do not think we are called, as Christians, to follow other people's judgements or opinions, unless the Spirit allows us to discern that it would be to our spiritual benefit. I follow Christ, not people. Now sometimes following Christ means that I am in alignment with other people, and following Christ always means that I must love other people (and extend God's grace and love to them). But loving and serving others (what we do with the least of these) is not the same as following their opinions. I love and serve people all the time who I do not agree with or follow. Indeed, I daresay there is a lot about modern US culture that most Christians feel we should *not* follow.

My point originally was that, on my deathbed, no one else's judgements or opinions of me matter.

In the end, only the One (God) determines my salvation.

cyberpi · 12-10-2006, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

We do not accept others' opinions, or judgemets...

Hello Quahom1... welcome to the displaced Liberal forum 2 doors to the Left. I found the person in the bible that refers to himself as 'WE' was Legion. Is there a Legion or someone else that you are speaking for?

cyberpi · 12-10-2006, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I was saying that although I am open to having dialogue with other people, and am very interested in what they have to say, others' judgements of my status (in terms of salvation) are irrelevant.

I do consider others' opinions, and I readily accept that anyone can have any opinion they choose. That's why I don't try to convince people I should be labeled Christian anymore. If they want to label me Y instead, that is their perogative. I do not think we are called, as Christians, to follow other people's judgements or opinions, unless the Spirit allows us to discern that it would be to our spiritual benefit. I follow Christ, not people. Now sometimes following Christ means that I am in alignment with other people, and following Christ always means that I must love other people (and extend God's grace and love to them). But loving and serving others (what we do with the least of these) is not the same as following their opinions. I love and serve people all the time who I do not agree with or follow. Indeed, I daresay there is a lot about modern US culture that most Christians feel we should *not* follow.

My point originally was that, on my deathbed, no one else's judgements or opinions of me matter.

In the end, only the One (God) determines my salvation.

For judgement of salvation, certainly I agree that being a disciple or follower of Christ means being a follower of Christ and not necessarily what a specific church or others say.

path_of_one · 12-10-2006, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Hello Quahom1... welcome to the displaced Liberal forum 2 doors to the Left. I found the person in the bible that refers to himself as 'WE' was Legion. Is there a Legion or someone else that you are speaking for?

I'm confused.

I'm fairly certain that Q is speaking for Christians, in general.

I think there are things being lost in cyber-translation here. I know Q pretty well and I think he was just saying what I was saying...

Others' opinions are not what counts in our salvation. Only God's opinion matters in our salvation.

Q can correct me if I'm wrong. Hope that helps clear things up.

cyberpi · 12-10-2006, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I'm confused.

I'm fairly certain that Q is speaking for Christians, in general.

I think there are things being lost in cyber-translation here. I know Q pretty well and I think he was just saying what I was saying...

Others' opinions are not what counts in our salvation. Only God's opinion matters in our salvation.

Q can correct me if I'm wrong. Hope that helps clear things up.

Sorry, I didn't know Q speaks for your beliefs. Is it the path of two?

In terms of salvation, I suggest that it is relevant whether a person accepts anyone else's judgement or opinions... relevant to being a Christian. That was my original point.

path_of_one · 12-10-2006, 03:25 AM

I didn't say Q spoke for me, I said Q (in saying "we") was referring to a very common belief in various denominations of Christianity, namely, that we are not of this world and are answerable to God, not to man.

I find your belief interesting, as I have not heard it before. Are you saying that a good Christian should accept any opinion or judgement, and what does that mean in practice? What do we do if there are conflicting opinions among people, or if their opinions conflict with our own conscience or the scriptures?

I'd really love to hear more about your viewpoint, as it's something new for me to learn about.

cyberpi · 12-10-2006, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I didn't say Q spoke for me, I said Q (in saying "we") was referring to a very common belief in various denominations of Christianity, namely, that we are not of this world and are answerable to God, not to man.

I find your belief interesting, as I have not heard it before. Are you saying that a good Christian should accept any opinion or judgement, and what does that mean in practice? What do we do if there are conflicting opinions among people, or if their opinions conflict with our own conscience or the scriptures?

I'd really love to hear more about your viewpoint, as it's something new for me to learn about.

I am suggesting that Faith has to be placed in the least of people. That the least of people must not only be able to express their opinions, but that their judgements have real power over law in this world. Both their opinions and judgements have to be listened to and even obeyed to a degree, whether they are right or wrong. Consider when Jesus was on the cross after being judged and ultimately condemned by some people. Was he rejecting their judgement or accepting it? I submit that he accepted it. It is not a matter of whether his opinion and judgement was the same as everyone elses. I submit that his was extremely unique to the world, but look what he did with it. As I read it... it is God's will that Faith be placed in the least of people.

Consider democracy. Should the least of people NOT have an independent opinion and vote over the laws that you must obey? Would you reject the law to reject the opinion and judgement of the least of people, or would you accept their vote? If for example everyone votes that alcohol should be banned again, and you like to drink now and then... will you be rejecting the opinions and judgements of others? If you are at someone's house that has different customs than you, will you be accepting their opinions and judgements, or rejecting them? I am guessing that you actually do accept them. Should you ever find yourself in a court of law in your country, will you be accepting or rejecting the opinions of others?

I am saying that just as you would accept the opinion and judgement of a friend (I'm betting), I think so must a person accept them from the least of people. I consider it placing Faith in a person, whether the person is right or wrong. So when any person says, "We do not accept others' opinions, or judgements..." I frankly can't place the religion. I consider it neither Christianity nor Islam... the two religions I am most familiar with. To place Faith in a person I have to accept their opinion and judgements. I suggest that any other way is oppression. To avoid is apathy.

Quahom1 · 12-10-2006, 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Hello Quahom1... welcome to the displaced Liberal forum 2 doors to the Left. I found the person in the bible that refers to himself as 'WE' was Legion. Is there a Legion or someone else that you are speaking for?

Speak for yourself...lol

io solo is my motto.

plus what you just pulled up is quite dated. Since then I learned from a blue bird, a thing or two about tolerance, but nothing from you. What a shame.

v/r

Joshua

path_of_one · 12-10-2006, 04:45 AM

I think we're talking past each other cyberpi. I support democracy and am more than fine with the process.

I'm really very liberal politically (much more so than most US Christians).

What I'm talking about in being labeled or not being labeled a Christian isn't about my political views and democracy. This thread is talking about if liberal Christians bother to call themselves Christian, considering that we are often are told by other Christians that we're too liberal to be "real" Christians.

As for following laws, so long as the laws do not go against the scriptures and the guidance I have from the Spirit, yes, I follow them. No problem there. Now when they do go against that guidance, I would practice civil disobedience. If I'd been alive in the 60s, for example, I would have practiced civil disobedience to help change the laws to allow for equal treatment of blacks. Just because people make a law does not mean that it is morally right, and in a democracy, it us up to the citizens (including me) to change laws we feel are wrong. And there have been lots of those in the history of this country that have oppressed minority groups and women.

In general, I think we actually agree with each other, from what I can decipher.

wil · 12-10-2006, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

... plus what you just pulled up is quite dated. Since then I learned from a blue bird, a thing or two about tolerance...

Yes what we say today is for today...we must always reserve the right to grow in understanding and on the morrow our words may be different.

ode to Paul, I die daily....