Do we (Muslims, Christians and Jews) believe in the same God or not?

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Yes, if one studies the scriptures of all these monotheistic religions one will find agreement and disagreement. The question is: what is the nature of those agreements and disagreements? Do they indicate spiritual differences or social differences?

I would like to note that one should stick to what matters - the spiritual laws and precepts and see that changes in the social laws are appropriate to different societies. God has ONE law, man may have different laws at different times in regard to his society and his individual place in society.

I think it is not "many paths". I think it is ONE path. Along the way are different guideposts and lights to tell us we are nearing our destination.

We tend to seem unjustified in thinking we're the exclusive followers of the Truth. It seems to many people that we're too narrow-minded to believe in the universality of our religions -- that we're disagreeing over petty and minor details. We seem to disagree over rules, laws and certain doctrines when unbelievers have come up with "better concepts."

For Muslims, I understand that they have to follow rules and show their devotion to God by conforming to a code of conduct. Sounds good.

For Christians, you will hear a lot about what they call "salvation." A lot of Christians either don't understand what it means "to be saved" or perhaps they understand it but don't explain it properly. This confuses people who aren't Christian. Why do we have to be saved? What are we being saved from?

On the other hand, there is a lot of emphasis on a man named Jesus. People start asking, why should Jesus be so important? Sure, he taught a lot of things, but there have been philosophers throughout the ages who have taught tons and tons and tons of things on how to live. So why Jesus?

Then you find that in Christianity there are multitudes and multitudes of different sects, formed by people who thought they were starting a fantastic movement that would answer all the questions about Christ but ended up confusing more and more people.

You start wondering, what's the point? Why do Christians consider these things so so special? Are these things really that important?

I may not be able to explain why all these things are happening right now, but I do know what's most important in Christianity.

The most important thing is God and His Kingdom. We are on a spiritual journey and our goal is to reach God and His Kingdom. We reach God and His Kingdom by living by faith. God's Kingdom is not here on earth yet, but somewhere else in another time and place.

Our purpose is not to build God's Kingdom ourselves by making our society perfect or advancing civilisation. Civilisation is not that important to God. We are important, not society. There is no doctrine to follow and no institutions to respect or uphold. All we need is faith, hope and love to survive the long hard journey to God's Kingdom.

This is where Jesus comes in, Jesus dies on the cross and opens a path to God's Kingdom. It is on this path that our spiritual journey takes place. Jesus is important for several other reasons which I won't go into detail here. For the purpose of explaining why he's so special -- it's basically to undo what Adam did.

Undoubtedly, that points us to what is regarded as most important in Christianity -- undoing the effects of Adam's disobedience.

This is where you start seeing the reasons for our differences. Islam says that the reason why there is so much evil in the world is because we don't follow the rules, doctrines and institutions (at least as far as I know) of Islam -- the five pillars, praying five times a day, veiling of women, abstaining from eating pork.

Christianity says it's Adam disobedience. By returning ourselves to the original condition of Adam, we rid ourselves of the need for rules, doctrines and institutions, because we are all capable of doing the right thing by Adam's original nature. That's also the reason for Christianity's simplicity. The Christian faith is a rather simple religion.

This is a big gulf indeed!!!!

No, I don't think we're fighting over petty details here!!!!

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

We tend to seem unjustified in thinking we're the exclusive followers of the Truth. It seems to many people that we're too narrow-minded to believe in the universality of our religions -- that we're disagreeing over petty and minor details. We seem to disagree over rules, laws and certain doctrines when unbelievers have come up with "better concepts."

For Muslims, I understand that they have to follow rules and show their devotion to God by conforming to a code of conduct. Sounds good.

For Christians, you will hear a lot about what they call "salvation." A lot of Christians either don't understand what it means "to be saved" or perhaps they understand it but don't explain it properly. This confuses people who aren't Christian. Why do we have to be saved? What are we being saved from?

On the other hand, there is a lot of emphasis on a man named Jesus. People start asking, why should Jesus be so important? Sure, he taught a lot of things, but there have been philosophers throughout the ages who have taught tons and tons and tons of things on how to live. So why Jesus?

Then you find that in Christianity there are multitudes and multitudes of different sects, formed by people who thought they were starting a fantastic movement that would answer all the questions about Christ but ended up confusing more and more people.

You start wondering, what's the point? Why do Christians consider these things so so special? Are these things really that important?

I may not be able to explain why all these things are happening right now, but I do know what's most important in Christianity.

The most important thing is God and His Kingdom. We are on a spiritual journey and our goal is to reach God and His Kingdom. We reach God and His Kingdom by living by faith. God's Kingdom is not here on earth yet, but somewhere else in another time and place.

Our purpose is not to build God's Kingdom ourselves by making our society perfect or advancing civilisation. Civilisation is not that important to God. We are important, not society. There is no doctrine to follow and no institutions to respect or uphold. All we need is faith, hope and love to survive the long hard journey to God's Kingdom.

This is where Jesus comes in, Jesus dies on the cross and opens a path to God's Kingdom. It is on this path that our spiritual journey takes place. Jesus is important for several other reasons which I won't go into detail here. For the purpose of explaining why he's so special -- it's basically to undo what Adam did.

Undoubtedly, that points us to what is regarded as most important in Christianity -- undoing the effects of Adam's disobedience.

This is where you start seeing the reasons for our differences. Islam says that the reason why there is so much evil in the world is because we don't follow the rules, doctrines and institutions (at least as far as I know) of Islam -- the five pillars, praying five times a day, veiling of women, abstaining from eating pork.

Christianity says it's Adam disobedience. By returning ourselves to the original condition of Adam, we rid ourselves of the need for rules, doctrines and institutions, because we are all capable of doing the right thing by Adam's original nature. That's also the reason for Christianity's simplicity. The Christian faith is a rather simple religion.

This is a big gulf indeed!!!!

No, I don't think we're fighting over petty details here!!!!

I could post quotations from Baha`u'llah and Abdu'l Baha to explain what "salvation" is from a Baha`i perspective. I will if you wish to see the basis for my comments.

Salvation is individual - I am saved, or you are saved, he, she, or it is saved. That is a personal thing decided only when one stands before God in judgement. I cannot say who is saved or not, nor can I even say I am "saved". God decides. Jesus was a channel of salvation without doubt, but He is not the Source of Salvation - God is.

I do not wish to get hung up in trinitarian interpretations of the Godhead, whatever it is it is GOD Who is the Source of All - including salvation. And, taken all in all salvation as it is usually conceived is for the next world.

Baha`i's believe that building the Kingdom is something to be acheived by the sweat of our (all of mankind's) labor - this is a distinction from most Christian belief, I agree. The Manifestations after Christ build on the personal salvation which Christ preached. Its a given. So the Baha`i Revelation works upon that given and worries itself with the salvation of mankind and the construction of God's Kingdom on Earth.

Please note this is my personal interpretation, it may differ substantively from another Baha`i's visualization of the meaning. I, and any other other Baha`i in this discussion would urge you to the writings to build your own interpretation of it.

Regards,
Scott

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Salvation is individual - I am saved, or you are saved, he, she, or it is saved. That is a personal thing decided only when one stands before God in judgement. I cannot say who is saved or not, nor can I even say I am "saved". God decides. Jesus was a channel of salvation without doubt, but He is not the Source of Salvation - God is.


Regards,
Scott

it seems to me & in my belief, that without Calvary & the blood shed of Jesus there would be no salvation, so that would make Jesus the 'authour & source' of salvation as well as God. God sent Jesus.

that is a seperate issue from interpretations of the Godhead or how other religions perceive 'God'.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Bandit

it seems to me & in my belief, that without Calvary & the blood shed of Jesus there would be no salvation, so that would make Jesus the 'authour & source' of salvation as well as God. God sent Jesus.

that is a seperate issue from interpretations of the Godhead or how other religions perceive 'God'.

Itis indeed, but seems worthy of discussion in its own right.

God did indeed send Jesus, from my point of view as well. I don't see any disagreement, and Baha`u'llah's words are full of that statement.

When God sends such a spirit to the world it is for the distinct purpose of manifesting Himself to man. Man cannot see with his physical eyes the presence of God, nor hear it with his ears, touch it with his hands, taste or smell it. It is beyond the expeience of his own senses. So these Blessed Souls, or in the case of Jesus that Particular Blessed Soul was sent to manifest God amongst men, that seeing, hearing, touching, with the physical senses man could gain knowledge of God.

Each of these Blessed Souls has suffered in bearing the Message and being the Source of Salvation. Moses suffered exile, as did Abraham. Abraham was willing to offer up His own son to satisfy God's will - that was suffering. The Bab was suspended above a clamoring mob by ropes and shot by the massed firing squad of 500 or more muskets to satisfy the needs of man for salvation through the sacrifice of the Messenger.

Sometimes the sacrifice is continued life in suffering punishment and exile. Sometimes the sacrifice is paid in blood of that Blessed Soul. The sacrifice is for the good of mankind and the renewal of God's covenant of Salvation.
Baha`u'llah says clearly: "We, verily, have come for your sakes, and have borne the misfortunes of the world for your salvation." (Bahá'u'lláh, Tablets 10)(2)

The term "salvation" is more frequent in Baha`i Writings than it is in the New Testament. The word itself occurs only three or four times in all of the Gospels, for instance.

Baha`u'llah even refers to Jesus as "the Son of God" and the "begotten"> We know this is a symbolic term, but its there:
""I am the One," He in another connection affirms, "Whom the tongue of Isaiah hath extolled, the One with Whose name both the Torah and the Evangel were adorned." "The glory of Sinai hath hastened to circle round the Day-Spring of this Revelation, while from the heights of the Kingdom the voice of the Son of God is heard proclaiming: 'Bestir yourselves, ye proud ones of the earth, and hasten ye towards Him.'"
(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 105)

The blood of Christ's sacrifice separates no one from anyone. It is offered up for mankind. The blood of the Bab separates no one from anyone, it is offered up for mankind. The sufferings of Moses, Abraham, Krshna, Buddha or Baha`u'llah are not offered to divide people from one another. They are meant to give God's grace and salvation to all.

As an individual I feel it incumbent on me to gratefully accept that hope of salvation through God's Grace, and to work to see His "Kingdom come." It isn't for me to worry about anyone's salvation and I leave it trustingly to God.

Regards,
Scott

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Regards,
The blood of Christ's sacrifice separates no one from anyone. It is offered up for mankind. The blood of the Bab separates no one from anyone, it is offered up for mankind. The sufferings of Moses, Abraham, Krshna, Buddha or Baha`u'llah are not offered to divide people from one another. They are meant to give God's grace and salvation to all.

As an individual I feel it incumbent on me to gratefully accept that hope of salvation through God's Grace, and to work to see His "Kingdom come." It isn't for me to worry about anyone's salvation and I leave it trustingly to God.

Scott

it is not for me to worry either. this not about dividing.

Gods grace is through Jesus. the blood of Jesus is what bought it. not the blood of Bab or anyone else.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Bandit

it is not for me to worry either. this not about dividing.

Gods grace is through Jesus. the blood of Jesus is what bought it. not the blood of Bab or anyone else.

That's a declaration of faith, its not fit for me to comment upon. In my personal opinion you are right - since the blood of both were the blood of ONE. That too, is a declaration of faith, and needs no affirmation from anyone else.

Regards,
Scott

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

That's a declaration of faith, its not fit for me to comment upon. In my personal opinion you are right - since the blood of both were the blood of ONE. That too, is a declaration of faith, and needs no affirmation from anyone else.

Regards,
Scott

interesting. the scripture says it. not just my faith. only one man did it once & that once was the last time for all time.
we can agree to disagree.

i think you got the both right too, but the first one did not shed any blood. try figuring that out.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Bandit

interesting. the scripture says it. not just my faith. only one man did it once & that once was the last time for all time.
we can agree to disagree.

i think you got the both right too, but the first one did not shed any blood. try figuring that out.

Well,"shedding blood" is figurative in one sense, but "the blood of the lamb" is a common metaphor, and Jesus did shed blood from hands, feet, and side, not to mention the crown of thorns and the flogging.

Regards,
Scptt

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

The blood of Christ's sacrifice separates no one from anyone.

I disagree. believing in jesus separates the christian church from the muslims and jews, and especially from the rest of the world who do not believe in god at all. it also creates differences in the characterstics of the god we all believe in. gods rest and the holy spirit is a gift to those that believe and follow jesus christ the son of god as our lord and saviour.

Colossians 3

Since you have been raised to new life with Christ, set your sights on the realities of heaven, where Christ sits at God's right hand in the place of honor and power. Let heaven fill your thoughts. Do not think only about things down here on earth. For you died when Christ died, and your real life is hidden with Christ in God.And when Christ, who is your real life, is revealed to the whole world, you will share in all his glory

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

I disagree. believing in jesus separates the christian church from the muslims and jews, and especially from the rest of the world who do not believe in god at all. it also creates differences in the characterstics of the god we all believe in. gods rest and the holy spirit is a gift to those that believe and follow jesus christ the son of god as our lord and saviour.

Colossians 3

Since you have been raised to new life with Christ, set your sights on the realities of heaven, where Christ sits at God's right hand in the place of honor and power. Let heaven fill your thoughts. Do not think only about things down here on earth. For you died when Christ died, and your real life is hidden with Christ in God.And when Christ, who is your real life, is revealed to the whole world, you will share in all his glory

Muhammed insists that one must believe in Jesus to be muslim. I can give you the Qur'anic quotes if you like. Muhammed says it is the return of Christ that will bring judgement day and Jesus will stand to judgement for all men.

Regards,
Scott

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Muhammed insists that one must believe in Jesus to be muslim. I can give you the Qur'anic quotes if you like. Muhammed says it is the return of Christ that will bring judgement day and Jesus will stand to judgement for all men.

Jesus and his role are, in many ways, generic.

The conflict arises where Muslims and Christians don't agree on human nature, God and how to reach His Kingdom.

The Trinity is a concept Muslims are especially against, but from what I've read so far from the Bible I think the Trinity is very much closely related with the teachings on human nature and God's Kingdom. We may think that the Trinity has nothing to do with these things, but these concepts are actually all inter-related.

The Gospel teaches that God's Kingdom is in another time and place (perhaps a different earthly reality). It is partly manifested here in this world (the present earthly reality) in believers. Believers are on a journey towards this Kingdom, a journey that progresses with faith, ends in death and transformation into a form compatible with the new life.

Islam has a paradise concept too that is separate from this world. We basically disagree on how we get there and what we get when we get there.

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Muhammed insists that one must believe in Jesus to be muslim.
Scott

Believe what? believe jesus is a prophet? believe jesus is just a man? also why quote mohammed when there are plenty of more disciples and prophets that actually spent time with jesus or actually talked to god himself that you could quote, or quote jesus himself for that matter- or do you feel its important to have someone from the arab race to quote?

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

Believe what? believe jesus is a prophet? believe jesus is just a man? also why quote mohammed when there are plenty of more disciples and prophets that actually spent time with jesus or actually talked to god himself that you could quote, or quote jesus himself for that matter- or do you feel its important to have someone from the arab race to quote?

I'm not saying anything to challenge anyone's belief. Christians, in my view are followers of the Religion of God.

I am not an Arab. Baha`u'llah was not an Arab, neither was the Bab. I am Welsh/English for seven eighths and Blackfoot for the other eighth. (There's about a thirty-second worth of Seneca in there amongst the Welsh/English to be completely honest.)
Baha`u'llah and the Bab were Persian - not Arab.

I did not actually quote Muhammed, you know, I paraphrased Him. I can quote Jesus speaking of His own Self.
"10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." (King James Bible, Mark)
Jesus spoke very well of Jesus. Things like:
When the angel said, 'O Mary! verily, God gives thee the glad tidings of a Word from Him; his name shall be the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, regarded in this world and the next and of those whose place is nigh to God."
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 3 - Imran's Family)

"When God said, 'O Jesus! I will make Thee die and take Thee up again to me and will clear thee of those who misbelieve, and will make those who follow thee above those who misbelieve, at the day of judgment, then to me is your return. I will decide between you concerning that wherein ye disagree. And as for those who misbelieve, I will punish them with grievous punishment in this world and the next, and they shall have none to help them.' But as for those who believe and do what is right, He will pay them their reward, for God loves not the unjust.
That is what we recite to thee of the signs and of the wise reminder. Verily the likeness of Jesus with God is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from earth, then He said to him BE, and he was;- the truth from thy Lord, . . . . "
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 3 - Imran's Family)

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

I'm not saying anything to challenge anyone's belief.

i dont think anyone thinks you were challenging, i was seriously asking, what you meant by believe, believe what exactly about jesus?

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

i dont think anyone thinks you were challenging, i was seriously asking, what you meant by believe, believe what exactly about jesus?

Okay. These words from the Qur'an come from God Himself, according to Muhammed:
""When God said, 'O Jesus! I will make Thee die and take Thee up again to me and will clear thee of those who misbelieve, and will make those who follow thee above those who misbelieve, at the day of judgment, then to me is your return. I will decide between you concerning that wherein ye disagree. And as for those who misbelieve, I will punish them with grievous punishment in this world and the next, and they shall have none to help them.' But as for those who believe and do what is right, He will pay them their reward, for God loves not the unjust.
That is what we recite to thee of the signs and of the wise reminder. Verily the likeness of Jesus with God is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from earth, then He said to him BE, and he was;- the truth from thy Lord, . . . . "
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 3 - Imran's Family)"
Regards,
Scott