Do we (Muslims, Christians and Jews) believe in the same God or not?

[Jeannot]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

All roads lead to Rome, all paths lead us home...eh?

If you're Catholic, yeah. Of course, some roads also led to Damascus.

[~:MOK:~]

Originally Posted by Jeannot

It doesn't matter where you start but in what direction you're going. Religions are not the goal, but only signposts. There are many paths.

well said Jeannot, although Religion is important as it provides structure. Religion is akin to a good upbringing for children. We are in effect children and need good and structured upbringings so that we do not faulter.

I truly think that all God is looking for is the effort. Are you making an effort to be the best person you can be? Do you sacrifice your time to pray to Him? are you giving out of what He has given to you? are you kind and just and fair to your fellow bretheren?

With respect to prayer and everything else, I don't know about everyone else, but I'm not strong enough to pray to Him daily of my own merit without the structure my religion gives me (Islam). Once I begin to pray, everything else seems to come naturally.

Wether we classify ourselves as believing in the same God or not is irrelevant. There is only one God, no matter what angle you look at Him.

[Saltmeister]

It's also possible that there is no path leading to God. Heaven and Paradise is just a place for people with a personal understanding of God.

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Who wrote the religion you are leading people with? I think it is clearly misguided and misplaced here. I hope nobody is misguided into thinking it is Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.

What I meant was, to put it in better words, was that there's perhaps "no path leading into heaven." It's God's own decision whether or not a person is accepted or not. You can be led, by some path, to God, or what you think is God, but it doesn't necessarily guarantee you a place in heaven. You can't manipulate God but you can influence your destiny by your attitude and the way you live. It's not so that you're manipulating God, but that it's like you're preparing yourself, grooming and polishing yourself for inspection. Whatever God chooses in the end goes.

Why speak of paths at all? If a religion is merely a framework or signpost then it's just a way of getting together a group of people with a common concept and aligning them with a common concept. But why should we even have to align ourselves to a common concept? Perhaps we should each make up our own personal religion that we each follow individually and exclusively. Nobody else follows your version of this "personal religion." You alone follow it.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by ~:MOK:~

I want to agree, and disagree with it as well. I believe in its own right a division as well as a classification. There is no doubt that the human Jesus as God, the "spirit" of God and the "father" that is God is by every means a division of a wholy and ultimately indivisible God, I do believe it is a man-made "classification". I don't mean that negatively. I believe, and you'll likely agree that it is natural to classify everything we know into seperate categories, but to say that classifying God into three classified "sub-headings" is not a division is clearly incorrect/ (p.s. I'm a Muslim, might give you something to work with).

It is only seen as a "division of God" if you see it as a classification of something internal. If, however, the Trinity was not a part of God, but something external to God, then you are not really dividing God. The sun's light is not internal but external to the sun. You're just classifying your observations of Him. Nature, for example, has many phenomena. We assign words to these different phenomena, even though there is no concrete definition of what they mean. Examples include wind, air and space.

How do you define wind, air, space and rain? Is space a vacuum or a volume that can be non-empty? In that case, a cube of wood could be describe as "occupied" space even though it isn't a vacuum. Moreover, because sub-atomic particles occupy only a small space compared to the size of an atom, most of the cube of wood would be empty space anyway!!! Wind is a current of air. But how do you define air, or current? When does a stationary fluid, accelerating from standstill, become a current? Air is a mixture of many different gases. But if you start with oxygen and nitrogen, and gradually add other gases to it, when does it become "air"?

The point here is, we assign words to things we observe. Wind, air, current and space are observations and don't literally exist except if they mean something to us. They are not really part of the universe except in our own perception. They are external to the universe, as perceptions are not part of the universe, but external to it.

Likewise, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit could be seen as (depending on your point of view) nothing except the perceptions of a spiritual journey from the point of view of a Christian. I believe the reason why we use the names "Father," "Son" and "Holy Spirit" is because it helps us in our spiritual journey. It works in the same way we use the words, wind, air and space even though they can't be defined scientifically, mathematically or logically, but only qualitatively.

As most Christian denominations depict the Trinity as "emanations" of God it's not really a division of God, but classifying what we perceive as part of our spiritual journey with God. Because we're dealing with "emanations" of God, and not the internal workings of God, we're dealing with something external. The Trinity is just an expression, and is not a quantitative definition (threeness), but a qualitative description (abstraction), observation, explanation, perception and depiction of our spiritual journey.

Anyway, welcome to CR, MOK.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Jeannot

If you're Catholic, yeah. Of course, some roads also led to Damascus.

Sister city...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by ~:MOK:~

well said Jeannot, although Religion is important as it provides structure. Religion is akin to a good upbringing for children. We are in effect children and need good and structured upbringings so that we do not faulter.

I truly think that all God is looking for is the effort. Are you making an effort to be the best person you can be? Do you sacrifice your time to pray to Him? are you giving out of what He has given to you? are you kind and just and fair to your fellow bretheren?

With respect to prayer and everything else, I don't know about everyone else, but I'm not strong enough to pray to Him daily of my own merit without the structure my religion gives me (Islam). Once I begin to pray, everything else seems to come naturally.

Wether we classify ourselves as believing in the same God or not is irrelevant. There is only one God, no matter what angle you look at Him.

The "effort" I personally believe, is when one transitions from the compelling requirement to pray (rituallistically and on a schedule, whether it be five times a day, or on the Sabbath, or at bed time), to when one prays (talks with God), at the drop of a hat, anytime of the day or night, in little things as well as big things, or for no reason at all except the wish to share with God what one is thinking and feeling at the moment.

To me, driving to work and observing a beautiful sunrise while along the way
that causes a stir of awe and wonder, and simply stating in mind or out loud, "Lord what a gorgeous picture you've painted", is a heartfelt "prayer" to God.

Why? It accomplishes the three main criteria (and possibly one advisory) for prayer:

1. You've just acknowledged God.
2. You've just given God praise and credit.
3. You've expressed yourself from your heart. and
4. You've most likely just did it in "secret" (only God and you heard).

my thoughts

v/r

Q

Oh, and welcome to CR

[OzAndy]

Originally Posted by ~:MOK:~

I truly think that all God is looking for is the effort. Are you making an effort to be the best person you can be? Do you sacrifice your time to pray to Him? are you giving out of what He has given to you? are you kind and just and fair to your fellow bretheren?

I think I may have said something like this in an earlier post to this thread, but i believe the classic Christian understanding of God is that God requires perfection from humanity. That is an effort which is beyond us as limited and flawed human beings. (In Christian Scripture look at Matthew 5-7)

But also believing that God is merciful and compassionate, a God of Grace, (grace = unmerrited Love), we believe God in Jesus Christ truly became one of us to make the effort or response we could not make.

Christians pray and do good for those in need not to reach God by some path, but out of thankfulness that God became one of us in Christ and carries us into God's presence. (In Christian Scripture see Luke 15)

God then for Christians is Mercy, Justice, and Grace all in one. One who demands perfection, but One who meets that perfection and includes us in it by means of Christ.

I think there is therefore some real division in our understandings of God, but Do we worship and believe in the same God? - I think so, but God alone, knows.

Grace and Peace.

ps the best of my previous posts on this topic of God and Grace is: Do we (Muslims, Christians and Jews) believe in the same God or not?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by OzAndy

I think I may have said something like this in an earlier post to this thread, but i believe the classic Christian understanding of God is that God requires perfection from humanity. That is an effort which is beyond us as limited and flawed human beings. (In Christian Scripture look at Matthew 5-7)

But also believing that God is merciful and compassionate, a God of Grace, (grace = unmerrited Love), we believe God in Jesus Christ truly became one of us to make the effort or response we could not make.

Christians pray and do good for those in need not to reach God by some path, but out of thankfulness that God became one of us in Christ and carries us into God's presence. (In Christian Scripture see Luke 15)

God then for Christians is Mercy, Justice, and Grace all in one. One who demands perfection, but One who meets that perfection and includes us in it by means of Christ.

I think there is therefore some real division in our understandings of God, but Do we worship and believe in the same God? - I think so, but God alone, knows.
Grace and Peace.

I think you are mistaken. God requires no perfection from that which can not accomplish it on its own. What God requires is a striving for perfection, and since we are not capable on our own, that we look to God to help us achieve the goal we can never reach on our own...why is that so hard for people to understand?

Christians "KNOW" they can't get to heaven and be before God, without grace and salvation. Seems everyone else thinks they can. What is there to argue about? Maybe the mistake is that Christians declare no one else can get to heaven either...

Well, if that was of no consequence, then why be angry with a faction of Abrahamic faith that doesn't matter? Unless there is something that does matter...and there is an element of uncertainty...

But then, what do we Christians know...absolutely "nothing". So don't worry about it.

v/r

Q

[Jeannot]

MOK,

"Wether we classify ourselves as believing in the same God or not is irrelevant. There is only one God, no matter what angle you look at Him."
_____________

Exactly.

[The Lord]

Originally Posted by Muhammad-Khalifa

Eventhough we (Muslims, Christians and jews) have many different beliefs by addressing our All-Mighty God differently , by debating on whether, or whether not Christ is son of God, etc... Is it not so, that he (our God) revealed to us his message by all three holy books (Qur'an, Gospel and Torah), Is it not so that God is 'Most mercifull', 'All-wise', 'All-knowing', 'All-mighty', etc, Is it not so that there is a last day (the day of judgement), Is it not so that there will be a torment (Hell-Fire) for the wrong doers and there will be a reward (Paradise) for the riteous. ...

I beg to differ with most, if not all, who have answered your question. Muslims, Christians and Jews do not in fact believe in the same God, in as much as this God, or rather Gods, have different theological conceptions and formulations, different qualities and attributes, and most importantly different religious sensibilities. One can argue that "historically" all three religions claim the same roots and the same basic idea about a creator deity (as do many other religions), but in matter of fact they are very different and the God of the Quran has nothing in common with the Gods in the Judaism and Christianity.

I know that many would protest this categorization on religious grounds, or faith. But study the three religions and compile a list of what each of them is telling you about their God and you will quickly see that they are not the same, especially so between Islam and the rest.

[mansio]

I agree with The Lord although to me the Jewish and Muslim conceptions of God are rather close.

[The Lord]

Originally Posted by mansio

I agree with The Lord although to me the Jewish and Muslim conceptions of God are rather close.

They seem close because both religions (now) proclaim a single supreme deity (strictly monotheistic) and Christianity seems to be confused about the issue. However, the Judaic God is anthropomorphic and ethnic, while the Islamic God is
transcendental and universal. And by the way, the Christian God is anthropomorphic but universal. Making the Jewish God universal was the apostolic mission and the primary achievement of Jesus.

In origin, one can argue that the Judaic God, Yahweh, was not conceived of as the One and only God, but rather as the tribal God of the Jews with the belief gradually developing that this God is superior to other peoples' Gods (I used capitals on purpose). This strain still exists in Judaism today even though most Jews would now claim Yahweh as the One and only deity in existence. I have some thoughts about when and how that came about, but that would require much discussion.

Islam rejects any notion of confining God in form or in time or in space, or in sentiment. In fact Islam goes so far to separate God from this world to the extent that one could honestly say that God is not knowable except through what little knowledge he revealed to us in successive messages. Of course, what we know through these messages is the will of God, but not God Himself. We could not imagine Him even if we tried. The maximum we could attain is a glimpse of His attributes through the knowledge of his will. For example, we know that He is the Just because of His will for justice. And of course, He is the Creator because this is where we started thinking that there must be a God, the One who created all we see and cannot explain.

A last point, but not the least, is that Islam rejects the notion that God favors a certain people over others except by faith and good acts, and that is only in judgment. God is the God of the worlds whether one knows Him or not, believe in Him or not, worship Him or not. It does not matter, and He does not actually care. He is still your God in all time and under all conditions. The only criterion is that if you have known God’s will (through one of the revelations to the primary prophets, which according to Islam were sent to us because we, not God, needed them) you will then be held responsible for your own actions on the Day of Judgment.

I guess this is enough for now. Cheers...

[dauer]

However, the Judaic God is anthropomorphic and ethnic, while the Islamic God is
transcendental and universal.

This is a false statement. The Jewish conception of God is also universal. The Jewish people just claim a particular relationship with Him. Even in the Talmud we find talk about the 7 Noachide Laws for all of mankind, I believe even mention in the Mishna. And this is linked to the covenant with Noah. The Jewish conception of God is also generally the same as the Muslim one, as Judaism was influenced, along with Islam, during the Andalusian period by the Greek works that were being translated by the Muslims. One of the most important Jewish theologians of the time was Moses Maimonides, whose Guide for the Perplexed, which deals with Torah and Aristotle, among other things, can be found online here:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/gfp/index.htm

What's more, there is not just one Jewish view of God. For example, among hasidim and some who have been influenced by them, panentheism is a common belief. It's not a monolithic religion.

A last point, but not the least, is that Islam rejects the notion that God favors a certain people over others except by faith and good acts, and that is only in judgment.

The same is true for Judaism. In fact, in traditional Jewish theology less is required of non-Jews than Jews to be in good with God.

Dauer

[Jeannot]

Yes, we ultimately believe in the same God. And ultimately, all religions are one. Those who stress differences, do a disservice to religion in general. It's not a question of YOUR religion or MY religion. These are usually aspects of the particuar culture in which we happent to be born.

ANY religion can serve as a starting point on the path to God.

[The Lord]

Originally Posted by dauer

This is a false statement. The Jewish conception of God is also universal. The Jewish people just claim a particular relationship with Him.

This makes Him not universal at all, unless one can similarly say that my dog is everyone else's dog even though he only answers to me.

Originally Posted by dauer

Even in the Talmud we find talk about the 7 Noachide Laws for all of mankind, I believe even mention in the Mishna. And this is linked to the covenant with Noah.

The Jewish conception of God is also generally the same as the Muslim one, as Judaism was influenced, along with Islam, during the Andalusian period by the Greek works that were being translated by the Muslims.

True and I said that they are closer together "NOW" than say between any of them and Christianity. But God is still very different in these two religions to an extent that does not make Him the same.

To put it in simple terms, for example, a Jew might politely agree with a Muslim about certain aspects of God in a friendly discussion, or even an academic study, since they do have common grounds to build on, but surely he/she does not believe in the God of Islam because if he/she did hold such a belief then he/she would be a Muslim, and not a Jew. And the opposite is true.

Originally Posted by dauer

...
What's more, there is not just one Jewish view of God. For example, among hasidim and some who have been influenced by them, panentheism is a common belief. It's not a monolithic religion.

I would like you to elaborate and explain the varying views more, if you can. Are you saying that some Jews have a different deity? And how would that make them Jews? On the other hand, if you are saying that some Jews stress certain aspects of the deity and thus hold a different view relative to His attributes then it is a matter of degree of variance until a person should not be considered as belonging to the same religious group. For example, one cannot say that he is a Muslim but he believes that God has a wife, or a son, or 2 arms, or eats steak. If you veer that much in your "view" of the deity then you are a religion unto your own.

Originally Posted by dauer

The same is true for Judaism. In fact, in traditional Jewish theology less is required of non-Jews than Jews to be in good with God.

Dauer

Please. The same is true of all religions. In Islam, all a Jew or a Christian or any believer in God has to do is to pay a poll tax and follow his/her own religion. Non-believers who have knowledge of the revelations by exposure to one of the 3 religions and yet remained non-believers cannot stay in Muslim lands. On the other hand, non-believers who did not receive knowledge of the revelations (like people in faraway lands or primitive societies) are automatically saved, they do not have to do anything at all. This is pretty lax compared to what a Muslim has to do and endure.

Cheers...

The Lord