Do these commands.....

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

...some Gentile folks also accepted Him, but a slew of Romans (no doubt, given the "end" of the Gospel story) did not, which continued on with the persecution of Christians until Constantine decided to make Christianity the state religion.

...it seems you get a lot of folks just along for the ride, some folks that are concerned about rules and doctrines all the time, some folks that are all about personal experience and connection with Divine, etc. no matter which faith you pick. I guess that is probably due to personality differences more than anything else.

I find most people in life are, to some degree, arrogant and prideful- of their religion, their nationality, their ethnicity, their occupation- something. It's that troublesome self-centeredness that occurs in all humans and is at the root of our problems... I'm not that surprised they were able to maintain a collective identity though. Frequently they have been isolated or segregated in other societies, they have often had enclaves, and they have a variety of cultural traits that give them solidarity.

Countries/nations are a recent human innovation. Ethnic/tribal/group solidarity is much older. Everyone used to maintain cultural continuity without the benefit of an associated nation-state, so it's more ordinary than it seems.

I don't think Jesus was concerned with flavors, but I also don't think it was meant to take on many of the meanings and practices it did. All we have to do is look at things like the Inquisition and Crusades to see the extreme of Jesus' message being misintepreted and misapplied. Personally, I think Jesus' message is pretty flexible in terms of how it integrates with religion. I find that it integrates with lots of traditions (including my Druidic one) just fine. However, one must always be alert to twisting the message, no matter what one's religious/ethnic/ancestral background. I think understanding some of the Jewish roots help in that regard.

As for having bad habits, I think all human societies (more or less) had bad habits. Most of the Gentile world that took up Christianity early on certainly had the trappings of law, ritual, and so forth and in most cases the priests were tied firmly to the governmental powers in some way by the time of Christ ...Christianity had reinvented the trappings (law, ritual, etc.) and tied itself to government powers, thereby twisting the original practice (in some cases, I think, beyond recognition).

Did Christ's message still shine through? In many cases, yes. But that doesn't excuse poor or misleading doctrine and practice. It's kind of a making lemonade out of lemons scenario to me. God's will always triumphs, but we sure could help out and make it easier on everyone by uniting a sincerity of seeking (heart-attitude) with study and contemplation (mind-discipline).

Awesome response Path!

I wish I had it in me to be able to respond in a way that doesn't seem so challenging or threatening, like you. That is perhaps my biggest bugaboo in composing my responses.

[Dream]

Hey, Seattlegal!

Originally Posted by Seattlegal

Hmm, Enter through the narrow gate? Just hope that Balaam's donkey is with you to warn you of trouble. (Reminds me of Jesus's prayer in John 17.)

That's really nice, thanks! It would certainly be nice if somebody was there to make sure I didn't make a woopsie. Hey, if Balaam gets a talking donkey, than I should at least get a warning flea bite, but I really don't need it. The last thing I want to do is cause trouble for the people of God, and Baalam's error was actually something that Baalam did on purpose. The burro condemned Balaam by extended his life long enough to expose the sin within him, providing grounds to curse him, and Balaam wound up cursing himself. The interpretation of Baalam's actions in Nehemiah 13:2 & Revelation 12:14 (see far below) will give an idea of what cursing is, or else looking at scriptures containing Strong's Hebrew word #07045 . Also, here are sections of Psalms 32 and 109 that provide a sense of the difference between blessing and cursing and between the attitudes of Balaam and Phineas. (Incidentally, Psalm 32:9 mentions a mule) I suggest that 'To curse' Israel means to request God to bring divine judgment against Israel or to entice them into sin -- to request God to select them as the example of his justice as he had already done with other nations.

Psalm 109
17 He loved to curse; let curses come on him! He did not like blessing; may it be far from him!
18 He clothed himself with cursing as his coat, may it soak into his body like water, like oil into his bones!
20 May this be the reward of my accusers from the LORD, of those who speak evil against my life!

Psalm 32
1 <A Psalm of David. A Maskil.> Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD imputes no iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit.
3 When I declared not my sin, my body wasted away through my groaning all day long.
4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me; my strength was dried up as by the heat of summer. Selah

This story provides a comparison between an older priesthood of God and a newer! Baalam is contrasted in scripture with Phineas, the Levitical priest. Phineas, the opposite of Balaam, rescues his nation from imminent judgment by God. Both are priests, however Baalam is likely a 'Priest' in the order of Noah and Phineas is of the new order of Aaron ben Levi. Baalam attempted to curse Phineas' Israel, but Phineas derailed the curse through zeal for God and prompt action. Balaam was ignorant of certain details of God's plans.

Nehemiah 13:2 Because they met not the children of Isra-el with bread and with water, but hired Balaam against them, that he should curse them: howbeit our God turned the curse into a blessing.

Revelation 12:14 But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice immorality.

Originally Posted by Seattlegal

Agreed. However, will that actually be enough? (Methinks something else might be missing here...)

Maybe its just a matter of time. Sometimes its just not the right time; and sometimes it is.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Dream

Hey, Seattlegal!
That's really nice, thanks! It would certainly be nice if somebody was there to make sure I didn't make a woopsie. Hey, if Balaam gets a talking donkey, than I should at least get a warning flea bite, but I really don't need it.

You do. It's called your conscience.

The last thing I want to do is cause trouble for the people of God, and Baalam's error was actually something that Baalam did on purpose. The burro condemned Balaam by extended his life long enough to expose the sin within him, providing grounds to curse him, and Balaam wound up cursing himself.

Sounds like it was acting in the same manner of a conscience, to me.

The interpretation of Baalam's actions in Nehemiah 13:2 & Revelation 12:14 (see far below) will give an idea of what cursing is, or else looking at scriptures containing Strong's Hebrew word #07045 . Also, here are sections of Psalms 32 and 109 that provide a sense of the difference between blessing and cursing and between the attitudes of Balaam and Phineas. (Incidentally, Psalm 32:9 mentions a mule) I suggest that 'To curse' Israel means to request God to bring divine judgment against Israel or to entice them into sin -- to request God to select them as the example of his justice as he had already done with other nations.This story provides a comparison between an older priesthood of God and a newer! Baalam is contrasted in scripture with Phineas, the Levitical priest. Phineas, the opposite of Balaam, rescues his nation from imminent judgment by God. Both are priests, however Baalam is likely a 'Priest' in the order of Noah and Phineas is of the new order of Aaron ben Levi. Baalam attempted to curse Phineas' Israel, but Phineas derailed the curse through zeal for God and prompt action. Balaam was ignorant of certain details of God's plans.

Compare Romans chapter 2 and Jeremiah 31:27-34.

Maybe its just a matter of time. Sometimes its just not the right time; and sometimes it is.

Seems like getting past the sour grapes would be a requite for the time to be right.
(It seems people are all too willing to override their consciences due to sour grapes.)

[Dream]

Quahom1,

Originally Posted by Quahom1

But I'm willing to entertain arguements contrary, particularly to Modern Christianity And I think this is an issue that both you and Chris have difficulties dealing with. So, let's debate/discuss/contemplate...ok?

That's sounds great, only I'm not sure. Its hard to maintain objectivity in a sparring situation when I'm talking about issues that are emotional for me. I've read some of your posts though, because I try to read all of the posts in threads when I'm posting in them. I think debates between opposing groups never resolve issues, or they wouldn't need judges in courts. The best debates are like games of chess between old friends, and they're really just mental exercise and for exploring in depth things they already agree about. Even in that I'm a newbie. We could argue about unimportant things, just for fun.

[Joedjr]

Hi seattlegal,

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Sounds like it was acting in the same manner of a conscience, to me.
Compare Romans chapter 2 and Jeremiah 31:27-34.

From the NASB: Jeremiah 31:34
"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the Lord,

Since I don't perceive this to have happened, is this part of an end times prophecy?

Joe

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Joedjr

Hi seattlegal,



From the NASB: Jeremiah 31:34
"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the Lord,

Since I don't perceive this to have happened, is this part of an end times prophecy?

Joe

Sounds like the Millenial Rule of Isaiah to me...

[Dream]

I cannot find a 1000 year rule in Isaiah.

[Dream]

Seattlegirl,

That's cool. I didn't know it was talking about his conscience.

(It seems people are all too willing to override their consciences due to sour grapes.)

I compared the two passages and Romans 2 isn't talking about fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:29 sour grapes, etc.

Verse 29 of Romans 2 is a direct reference to Deuteronomy 10:16 & 30:6 (see far below), and Paul is not saying anything new. Paul is relating the textbook understanding of God's judgment, so he can reason logically from it as a starting point. The Jewish faith has always been about the inward state of man -- not the outward. He refers to the fact that we are all at the mercy of God, who could judge us at any time and we'd be properly judged as horrific/necessarily destroyed. As far as Paul is concerned, a father who eats a sour grape has also dulled his child's teeth, because the child doesn't have God's 'Law' in his heart. Paul is not saying that humanity has changed, so he's not talking about fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:29. If it was fulfilled every person would have God's 'Law' written in their hearts, which is something much different from what we call conscience. We've always had consciences. Jeremiah 31 is talking about a transformed populace.

Paul does mention 31's fulfillment to be at a later time (I Corinthians 15:28). Jeremiah 31 according to Paul is the absolute very last stage of all of human history.

Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no longer stubborn (churlish).

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they
shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will
remember their sin no more.


I Corinthians 15
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Dream

Seattlegirl,

That's cool. I didn't know it was talking about his conscience. I compared the two passages and Romans 2 isn't talking about fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:29 sour grapes, etc.

Verse 29 of Romans 2 is a direct reference to Deuteronomy 10:16 & 30:6 (see far below), and Paul is not saying anything new. Paul is relating the textbook understanding of God's judgment, so he can reason logically from it as a starting point. The Jewish faith has always been about the inward state of man -- not the outward. He refers to the fact that we are all at the mercy of God, who could judge us at any time and we'd be properly judged as horrific/necessarily destroyed. As far as Paul is concerned, a father who eats a sour grape has also dulled his child's teeth, because the child doesn't have God's 'Law' in his heart. Paul is not saying that humanity has changed, so he's not talking about fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:29. If it was fulfilled every person would have God's 'Law' written in their hearts, which is something much different from what we call conscience. We've always had consciences. Jeremiah 31 is talking about a transformed populace.

Paul does mention 31's fulfillment to be at a later time (I Corinthians 15:28). Jeremiah 31 according to Paul is the absolute very last stage of all of human history.

Dream, I was talking about comparing those passages to Baalam's curse coming back on him, and the processes involved in this sort of thing.

Jeremiah 31:30 Rather, each will die for his own wrongdoing. Anyone who eats sour grapes—his own teeth will be set on edge....

Romans 2:1 Therefore, anyone of you who judges is without excuse. For when you judge another, you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the same things. 2 We know that God's judgment on those who do such things is based on the truth....

[Dream]

Sorry for boring you! This was actually a nice little homework assignment for me, though. So is it an established fact that the angel and donkey are an imaginative way of representing Balaam's conscience? Since when has the Bible been pro-democrat?

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Dream

Sorry for boring you! This was actually a nice little homework assignment for me, though. So is it an established fact that the angel and donkey are an imaginative way of representing Balaam's conscience? Since when has the Bible been pro-democrat?

No, it's not an absolute established fact. Notice how I said:

Sounds like it was acting in the same manner of a conscience, to me.

[Dream]

By the way, I'm glad you posted a bigger picture in the Eastern forum. I was beginning to wonder whether you had a flute or a sword and top-knot.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Dream

By the way, I'm glad you posted a bigger picture in the Eastern forum. I was beginning to wonder whether you had a flute or a sword and top-knot.

Regarding the sword and the top knot: I warned you that I'm a button pusher.

[Dream]

You also said you were a dispatcher. So when are you going to dispatch me? The subjectivity angle you took was threatening, but you merely introduced it. Why not pull out the ol' Blade of Silk and get swishing?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Dream

You also said you were a dispatcher. So when are you going to dispatch me? The subjectivity angle you took was threatening, but you merely introduced it. Why not pull out the ol' Blade of Silk and get swishing?

Your original question was "...so when are your going to relieve me of my pain?"

Which is it?

I think you are deliberately mucking up the works here. Not cool.