Do these commands.....

[Dream]

More about Matthew and its consistency with the God of Joshua.

Joshua 7
25 And Joshua said, "Why did you bring trouble on us? The LORD brings trouble on you today." And all Israel stoned him with stones; they burned them with fire, and stoned them with stones.

Here is a case where judgment on Achan is not held for the future, but is dispensed immediately. The reason is that it was for the sake of upholding the correctness of the LORD's judgments. Achan, missing the big picture, decided it was unfair that he should be forced to destroy perfectly good plunder from Jericho. He took plunder from the city and buried it beneath his tent, to keep his actions a secret from the rest of Israel, and to make sure he profited. If the LORD were to let Achan get away with this, the LORD's judgment against Jericho (complete destruction) could have been discredited as an ambiguous or human decision. The fact that Israel had not completely destroyed everything from Jericho according the the LORD's judgment was incompatible with their position as representatives of the One God. Both Joshua and Matthew are busy defending God's judgment. In Matthew 25, Jesus alludes to Achan in the Parable of the Talents.

Matthew 25
24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, `Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not winnow;
25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.'
26 But his master answered him, `You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sowed, and gather where I have not winnowed?
27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has the ten talents.
29 For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

The wicked servant decided it was unfair for his master to demand something for nothing, so he hid his 'Talent' in the ground. The fields are analogous to the nations that perished by Joshua's hand, where the LORD harvested what he had not sown. The lesson of the parable was that the poor servant had an attitude problem, like Achan. It was also alluding to Saul's attitude in I Samuel 15:20, when he kept plunder that was supposed to be devoted to the LORD. He 'Hid his talent'. The Parable of the Talents is not about using your abilities for God, but about trusting in God's judgment and fearing him.

Maybe it would be easier if instead of Joshua, we compared David to those statements about loving enemies in Matthew. David fought God's wars, too; but there were times in his personal life where for the sake of God's judgment he avoided retaliating against others. In one of these cases he said "The L-RD judge between you and me.(I Samuel 24:12)" One time when he had his entire army with him, an old supporter of Saul decided to throw rocks and cuss at David as he and is retinue fled from Absolom. Instead of sending solders to stop the man, David said:

2 Samuel 16:11 And David said to Abishai and to all his servants, "Behold, my own son seeks my life; how much more now may this Benjaminite! Let him alone, and let him curse; for the LORD has bidden him.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Dream

Matthew's God is consistent with Joshua's. In the first place, God is always making people suffer, wait, and worry for the sake of his higher purposes. Such is our lot, so its very difficult to appreciate God if we feel that he is unfair. In his defense, it would be ridiculous to think that the creator should be at our beck, or that he must treat us all like diamonds. Nobody is on equal terms with God, because we're just creatures that he made. As for saying God is 'Ethnocentric', that is just greener-grass syndrome.

I don't think I agree about the cop thing you mentioned. Jesus didn't have it so good when he was growing up but learned to accept God's judgment, which was not an easy process. He learned obedience by the things he suffered (Heb 5:8), which is another way of saying he learned to 'Deny himself'.

I appreciate your honest and open attitude, Chris. In one of these threads you said you'd been burned by religion. I think that happens to everybody, and hopefully it didn't set you back too much career-wise. It sounds like you've done OK for yourself, so I'm glad for you.

I'm doing pretty well, thanks.

I don't put a whole stock in the foundational mythology of the OT. I'm not Jewish, so I don't have to support their war god or literalize their mythology.

Chris

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I'm doing pretty well, thanks.

I don't put a whole stock in the foundational mythology of the OT. I'm not Jewish, so I don't have to support their war god or literalize their mythology.

Chris

Ah, but since we do not have absolute records, one man's mythology is another man's truth...

What harm however, is there is following commands that seem to do all of mankind good, including the one feeling put out for having to choose to do for others as opposed to doing what he pleases?

Just a thought.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Ah, but since we do not have absolute records, one man's mythology is another man's truth...

What harm however, is there is following commands that seem to do all of mankind good, including the one feeling put out for having to choose to do for others as opposed to doing what he pleases?

Just a thought.

I like the Golden Rule. That's pretty universal. I'm particularly fond of the book of Ecclesiastes.

Chris

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I like the Golden Rule. That's pretty universal. I'm particularly fond of the book of Ecclesiastes.

Chris

Hmmm, what part do you like best? The part where the king had lost touch with God, or the part where he acknowledged that God made everything worthwhile?

[China Cat Sunflower]

I like the idea that there is meaning in the mundane activities of life.

Chris

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I like the idea that there is meaning in the mundane activities of life.

Chris

Only if God is part of that life...then the mundane is no longer "mundane"...

[China Cat Sunflower]

God does whatever it does regardless of whether I believe in it or not. I don't believe, I don't disbelieve. I can be honest about it. I can avoid making an idol of it. So I'm good on at least two commandments.

Seriously, do you think the Hebrews had a flippin' clue what God really is? It might as well be Puff the Magic Jewy Dragon from their descriptions. I'm supposed to believe that God lives in a mountain and collects foreskins? Gimme a break!

I may not crack the grand mysteries of the universe, but life isn't meaningless. There's reason to believe that the actions of each person do make a difference. I call that faith. I suppose it's easier for me, being that I'm a carpenter and not a lawyer. My work is clean, ethical, and meaningful. I do things right. I am a righteous man.

Chris

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

God does whatever it does regardless of whether I believe in it or not. I don't believe, I don't disbelieve. I can be honest about it. I can avoid making an idol of it. So I'm good on at least two commandments.

Seriously, do you think the Hebrews had a flippin' clue what God really is? It might as well be Puff the Magic Jewy Dragon from their descriptions. I'm supposed to believe that God lives in a mountain and collects foreskins? Gimme a break!

I may not crack the grand mysteries of the universe, but life isn't meaningless. There's reason to believe that the actions of each person do make a difference. I call that faith. I suppose it's easier for me, being that I'm a carpenter and not a lawyer. My work is clean, ethical, and meaningful.

Chris

I'm a carpenter as well. But we look at life quite differently. I think the Hebrews knew God far better than we do, hence they paid heavier prices for screwing up. Make's sense if you think about it. God does what ever He does regardless of whether we believe or not. Faith in God is not idolatry. It is common sense. By fence walking, we violate the prime tennant of Jesus. Hot or Cold, He can deal with US. Luke warm He spits us out of his mouth. He likes you Chris (besides loves you). Your'e honest. You don't fake anything, don't hide your disdain. You wear your heart on your sleave.

You're Paul...

[China Cat Sunflower]

Hey, Paul's a big hero of mine!

I do have a concept of God. I'm a student of Kabbalah. Not foo foo, Madonna Kabbalah. I don't have the ability to put any of that stuff into words, though. Like I said on another thread, as long as it stays metaphysical I'm good. I just don't know how to bring it into the physical without making an idol of it. I strongly believe in providence. Don't know exactly where to file that, but I have ample proof of it from my own life experiences.

Chris

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Hey, Paul's a big hero of mine!

I do have a concept of God. I'm a student of Kabbalah. Not foo foo, Madonna Kabbalah. I don't have the ability to put any of that stuff into words, though. Like I said on another thread, as long as it stays metaphysical I'm good. I just don't know how to bring it into the physical without making an idol of it. I strongly believe in providence. Don't know exactly where to file that, but I have ample proof of it from my own life experiences.

Chris

Belief in things as yet unseen, and hope for things that have yet to be...faith

Faith, Hope and Love, these three, but of these three, the greatest is Love...you're on your way Chris.

[Joedjr]

Hi Dream,

Can I use Luke 6:35, is Luke's G!d in agreement with Joshua? Is Moses' G!d in agreement with Joshua?
My original thought was to contrast the somewhat blood letting OT with the more peaceful way that Jesus was teaching in the NT. The use Matthew and Joshua was not a link between just those two writers. I did find your commentary interesting, thanks.

Joe

[Joedjr]

Hi Chris,

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I don't put a whole stock in the foundational mythology of the OT. I'm not Jewish, so I don't have to support their war god or literalize their mythology.
Chris

When I went down to the Christian bookstore and brought a copy of the Bible it came complete with the OT and the NT. Reading through, the OT comes first and leads me assume that it is some kind of foundation for the NT. Sometimes though, it's hard to see the connection. Since I'm a student of Christianity and the Christian scriptures contain the OT and the NT as one book I read it as one.
Just trying so show where my thought is here, not trivializing your comment. thanks
Joe

[path_of_one]

I read the OT and ponder it, but I see where Chris is going here. It is customary for mainstream Christians to see the OT as the foundation to the NT. However, what gets me is what to do with the very clear statements in the NT that Jesus came for the Jews. Yeah, us Gentiles got the message and that's wonderful, but according to the OT and Judaism today, the Gentiles were only bound by the Noahide Laws. We weren't supposed to leave our own ethnic/religious groups and become sort-of Jewish Christians. We were given the message of Jesus and that would have been overlaid on the Noahide Laws and our own traditions. At least, after a lot of thought and study, that was the clearest "answer" I could come up with.

Personally, I see the OT as important for understanding the background history and mythology leading to Jesus. Furthermore, I actually think that many Christians today have inaccurate theological concepts because they have not studied the OT and Jesus' words in the context of Judaic thought, but instead imposed modern Western thinking on these texts. No offense (and I don't think it matters for salvation), but that is just what I find.

That said, I am not Jewish. So I chose to retain/revive the traditions of my own ancestors, but inform them with the Noahide Laws and what I can learn from Judaism, and to follow Christ's message as a Gentile.

[Dream]

Very respectable point of view, Path of One. All of this stuff takes time to go through. As you learn enough to narrow down the possibilities and throw away the junk answers you sometimes feel like a tired swimmer.

Can I use Luke 6:35, is Luke's G!d in agreement with Joshua? Is Moses' G!d in agreement with Joshua?

As far as I can tell, these are all written by people with the same basic understanding of what God is. There are many cultural differences that separate us from these in authors in the past, which means there are language hurtles for us. Some training in any second language is very helpful, because it sharpens your intuition about the translated Christian texts. More importantly, you've got to have some Jewish cultural and historical knowledge before you can understand even John 3:16 in depth. Without a basic storyline of Genesis - Exodus and knowledge of Leviticus, some of Numbers and Deuteronomy you can find the gospels and Paul's letters to be quite the head-banging (or mystical) experience. Things just don't work together without it. Everything you read in the Tanach helps when reading the Christian authors, because the gospels and letters are completely saturated with Torah allusions, references, utterances, ideology, arguments, and decrees.