Do angels have free will?

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by dauer

But the angels are not evil in Judaism. They are doing God's will. They only seem evil to you because you don't like what they're doing. For example as shown in the wonderful Wonka illustration, Ha-Satan is not an evil guy. He just runs sting operations for God, testing people, and serves as prosecutor in the heavenly court, so to speak. I may not like what God has instructed Ha-Satan to do, but that doesn't mean there isn't a good reason for it. It's true that some of them get jobs that make us mad sometimes, like the angel of death. But the guy's just got a job to do, and an important one. It doesn't make him a bad angel, just a misunderstood one, an angel with a bad rep maybe. They're two very different approaches to theodicy.




Literalism doesn't work with God-talk in Judaism and the same is true for angel-talk usually. There isn't really an angel saying grow. Angels are the manifested expressions of God's power in the universe. You plant the grass seed, so why does it grow? You water it, so why does it grow? Why does any of the universe function this way at all? The metaphor used in Judaism to speak about these functions of the universe are the angels, the messengers of God. They don't wear white robes and have wings and a harp and live up in the clouds. But some more examples:

If the sun comes up, an angel said (not literally) "Rise!". If the rain pours down, an angel said "Pour!" If an old man dies an angel said "die!" If a person's cancer heals, an angel said "Heal!"

But angels have no free will of their own, and no real power. They are merely expressions of God's will in our world. And because we are the ones understanding God's power in the world, some are inclined to understand it in more human terms. Others would say that there really are no angels at all and it is just God, and this wouldn't really be wrong either. It might be the majority opinion, in one way or another, but I'm not sure.

Dauer

i know angels do not literally make grass grow .
i am afraid i disagree with 90% of this teaching on angels but if you want to believe it that is up to you.
When you come full circle with it this way, you end up with an evil God that brings temptation and/or a teaching that evil does not exist.

i believe angels do have free will & they made a choice (past tense) to worship & love God.

Some rebelled of there own free will, by trying to rise above God & there is no place for them in heaven or around the throne of God & they are cast down to the earth.
as for them having power...no more than what God will allow.

[dauer]

Originally Posted by Bandit

When you come full circle with it this way, you end up with an evil God that brings temptation and/or a teaching that evil does not exist.

Well certainly God does tempt. There's no argument there. How does that make God evil? Temptations, challenges, obstacles help us to grow. If these did not exist we could not improve ourselves. We do this growth in the struggle with adversity and not in its absence.

Question: In the Christian model isn't God, as omniscient, omnipotent Creator also the tempter, since He could have never created Satan or could have stopped Satan at some point in time?

In the end we're going to end up agreeing to disagree but is there something I am misunderstanding about Christian theology here?

Dauer

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by dauer

Well certainly God does tempt. There's no argument there. How does that make God evil? Temptations, challenges, obstacles help us to grow. If these did not exist we could not improve ourselves. We do this growth in the struggle with adversity and not in its absence.

Question: In the Christian model isn't God, as omniscient, omnipotent Creator also the tempter, since He could have never created Satan or could have stopped Satan at some point in time?

In the end we're going to end up agreeing to disagree but is there something I am misunderstanding about Christian theology here?

Dauer

i dont know,

God does not tempt man with evil. it is contrary to scripture & how he operates. this is where we have the satan & his angels & this is where we have evil.


i have no idea what you mean by God could not have created satan or stopped him.

Satan was the guard of the throne...the highest postion UNTIL he tried to rise above God.
God DID create him & DID stop him when he tossed his evil a$$ out of heaven & he will stop him completely when he destroys him for refusing to repent.

yes we disagree. totally disagree.

[dauer]

Originally Posted by Bandit

i dont know,

God does not tempt man with evil. it is contrary to scripture & how he operates. this is where we have the satan & his angels & this is where we have evil.

How is it contrary to scripture? There is much evidence God brought evil to the world. For instance, from Micah 4:6:

"On that day -- the word of Hashem -- I will assemble the limping one and gather in the one driven away, and one who I caused to be evil."

God caused someone to be evil somehow.

Or, if you'd rather,

"6. As this potter can I not do to you, O house of Israel? says the Lord. Behold, as clay in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel.


7. One instant I may speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to uproot and to demolish and to destroy.


8. And when that nation repents of its evil for which I spoke concerning it, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do to it."

Jeremiah: 18:6-8

God said that He will repent the "evil" He thought to do to it, which includes uprooting, demolishing, and destroying. He also mentions that people are like putty in His hands during life that He can do anything to, and these "evil" things are the things He's speaking about doing.

or

"7. Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these."

God makes shalom and ra. Read it how you will, but these things parallel light and darkness and God creates them both.

or

Read the book of Job. Hasatan comes to God to doublecheck that it's okay before acting. It's God's decision. God is omniscient and can't be fooled by hasatan even if hasatan has free will. Also, God appears in the whirlwind which shows that it was God's decision to test Job. Compare this to the passage from Jeremiah, where God is free to do evil to man like clay in a potter's hands. Job shows how God tests.

i have no idea what you mean by God could not have created satan or stopped him.

Satan was the guard of the throne...the highest postion UNTIL he tried to rise above God.
God DID create him & DID stop him when he tossed his evil a$$ out of heaven & he will stop him completely when he destroys him for refusing to repent.

If Satan exists, it is because God let him exist. God is all-powerful. God also is all-knowing. This means that God knew what Satan would do and God could have stopped him. God could have eliminated Satan completely so that there would be no evil. But this does not appear to be what happened. If Satan still exists, it is because God let him exist, in which case God chose this with full knowledge of what would happen and the ability to change what would happen and it is therefore his responsibility what happens. If God did everything he could to stop Satan, then God is not all-powerful and there is some other being that has some sort of footing with God, even if it is not quite equal.

Dauer

[path_of_one]

Thanks, Dauer. The scriptural evidence is exactly why I agree with the Judaic view of angels and Satan and not the Christian view. Reading rabbis' comments on Satan, evil, and angels made me really think, go through the scripture and question the assumptions I had.

[dauer]

Path of one,

I'm curious, and it seems since you have explored this issue that you might be able to answer my question. Are you aware if there have ever been any sects or historical figures in Christianity's history who did also come to the same conclusions as you have regarding the nature of angels and satan, or who came to similar conclusions?

Dauer

[path_of_one]

A lot of Quakers don't believe in hell and Satan in the regular Christian concept of them. I'd be willing to bet that quite a few mystics and gnostics would be in that group too. I know some Episcopalians that don't believe in a literal hell or Satan either- their denomination tends to be more varied in the theology of its members than many. They all don't come to the same conclusion about them though. Some decide neither actually exist, some decide it's all in our head (hell is a state of being, and Satan is a metaphor for our own temptations and inner adversary), some think that God does tempt us on earth but it's for our own good and spiritual growth.

I'm not sure if there are any sects/denominations that currently are trying to understand Jesus and the NT in light of Judaic scripture, religion, culture, and the Hebrew language, but I'd sure love to find out. Since Jesus was a Jew and more than half the Christian Bible is the OT, I am very concerned with trying to get a reasonably accurate picture of what the Jewish religion and culture entails and how this is played out in the meaning of the NT, assuming there is a continuity there. Then I bounce that off of my own prayer and experience, and also trying to figure out how to relate all that to the life of this Gentile.

[dauer]

Thank you for sharing all of that. I knew I had heard something somewhere.

Unfortunately I feel obligated to tell you that there are organized Christians trying to better understand the way Jesus may have lived. But the problem is that in most cases they maintain a traditional Christian theology regarding Jesus' divinity which conflicts with a basic reading of even the ten commandments in the Hebrew. Another problem is that they often blend later Jewish practices with this.

All that I have mentioned is not such a big deal to me. I could care less how people find God as long as they are not harming each other. The issue I have is that some of these groups were formed with the intent to pose as a legitimate form of modern Judaism in order to more effectively missionize to Jews, which they do at campuses and old age homes, anywhere else they can get people. They have rabbis who are really ordained ministers and so forth. Their theology is entirely Christian.

Having said that, this is not the entire movement. This might help you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

Dauer

[path_of_one]

Thank you for the reference, and I greatly appreciate the spirit in which it was given, as it takes a lot to give out information with which one disagrees.

That said, I'm with you on that one. I'm not interested in starting from a place of assumptions and proving them by twisting things to suit me. I'm interested in starting from a place of removing my biases and finding the truth based on my spiritual experience and study of the scriptures from a place of open-mindedness. I guess it's the anthropologist in me, I just can't stand starting from a place of assuming I already know the answers, and I abhor imposing my own ideas on another culture or religion. I wish to understand the other culture/religion from their own viewpoint first, before I choose whether or not to internalize various bits or how it fits with my own life.

And I totally agree about people finding God. That is why I am a path-of-one. I don't feel the need for anyone else to agree with me or tell me how I should be interpreting scripture or experiencing God. I don't feel like I need to convince anyone of my ideas, either. I'm happy to share them, but it doesn't much matter to me if people agree or chuck my ideas out their window. As long as no one is getting hurt, I just rejoice that all these people are seeking after God and a good, ethical life.

[Paladin]

Gee Path-of-one, why can't you just be a non-conformist like everyone else! :0)

[Bandit]

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.



James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Some People teach no free will of angels, so they can teach no free will of man, which ultimately leads to no heaven or hell, no judgement, no sin, no satan etc. etc. etc.

Abraham was 'put to the test' not tempted by God with evil.


but...hey, whatever floats your boat

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Gee Path-of-one, why can't you just be a non-conformist like everyone else! :0)

LOL!

[endtimes]

If angels have free will, why would Christ be sacrificed AFTER
humans were created, and not for the Angels only?

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by endtimes

If angels have free will, why would Christ be sacrificed AFTER
humans were created, and not for the Angels only?

i believe the judgement has already went forth for the angels before God made man. there was a seperation between the angels & this is where evil really started & the angels who went against God were cast out of the midst of heaven onto the earth.
angels are different from people. they are just created spirits.

I believe Jesus was the sacrfice for the sins of the world (people) & his blood covers all of the righteous in both directions, before & after Jesus. Jesus did not die for the angels, because that judgement for angels has already been made prior to Adam. His sacrifice was for man & not angels. Actually Jesus is higher than the angels. Jesus is at the very top.

remember the devil had to ask for permission to tempt Job. Jesus was also tempted by the devil, but Jesus was full of the Holy Ghost which he was able to resist the temptation of the devil, & the devil had to flee.
We can do the same thing when we have temptation if we have the Holy Ghost.
The scripture tells us ahead of time that the angels who left there first estate, never repent & are destroyed & there works are destroyed at the second judgement.

I do believe the angels are real created beings, not a metaphor or just thoughts, like some believe.

What do you think endtimes? & welcome to the boards

[endtimes]

Yes, I too, agree that angels are created beings, not just thought or metaphor. But how do you explain Paul's question in 1 Cor 6:3? "Know ye not that we shall judge angels?" (KJV) Even though we (including Jesus) are made "a little lower than the angels." (Ps 8:5 ; Heb 2:7,9)

This appears to mean that the angels, too, shall be judged at the 2nd coming, does it not? With Jesus at the Right Hand of the Father...(Mark 16:19 ; Luke 22:69 ; Acts 7:56 ; Rom 8:34 ; Colossians 3:1 ; Heb 12:2 ; 1 Pet 3:22)

May I ask your references for the belief that the angels have been judged prior to the creation? I would like to study this further...

And thank you for the welcome, as I look forward to having many discussions on this board : )