Divine Will versus Free Will

[metro_tramp]

doesn't the fact that christianity if full of morality, and holds the concepts of judgement by God leading to Heaven and Hell Kinda insinuate that we have free will?
If we have no free will, then its seems that being sent to Hell for the actions that God made us commit would be a pretty sick joke on God's behalf.
And if we have no free will, what is the point of having the ten commandments and all that anyway?

The way i see it, Free Will seems to be a necessary part of the most of Christian doctrine...

[IlluSionS667]

I see no reason to assume that free will is anything but an illusion. Science leads to the conclusion that all events are caused by previous events. This includes thoughts and actions by humans.

[Avinash]

Originally Posted by IlluSionS667

I see no reason to assume that free will is anything but an illusion. Science leads to the conclusion that all events are caused by previous events. This includes thoughts and actions by humans.

I like the illusion of having free will. I enjoy the imaginative freedom of taking decisions that shape my life.

[IlluSionS667]

Originally Posted by Avinash

I like the illusion of having free will. I enjoy the imaginative freedom of taking decisions that shape my life.

It's not because it is an illusion you should hate it, ya know?!

[Vapour]

well, science, especially quantum physics do show that certain things are indeed totally random.

This doesn't square with omnicient God though.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Vapour,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by Vapour

well, science, especially quantum physics do show that certain things are indeed totally random.

you are aboslutely correct...

[Avinash]

Originally Posted by Vapour

well, science, especially quantum physics do show that certain things are indeed totally random.

This doesn't square with omnicient God though.

Namaskar Vapour,

How much can the objective sciences fathom the Mind of God? These things only appear totally random to us, but they aren't to Him.

[IlluSionS667]

Originally Posted by Vapour

well, science, especially quantum physics do show that certain things are indeed totally random.

Chaos theory has taught us that some behavior can not be predicted by man, because there's an infinitesimally large number of variables that need to be included in the calculation. This however does not mean that this behavior is not determined. This simply means that this behavior can not be determined by man because of it's complexity.

I see no reason why the situation of the universe at time X1 can't always be determined by the situation of the universe at time X0, if you know all the necessary variables. But getting to know all the necessary variables is the problem, as there are too many of them.



However, I agree that the idea of an omniscient God sounds absurd.

[Vapour]

Originally Posted by Avinash

Namaskar Vapour,

How much can the objective sciences fathom the Mind of God? These things only appear totally random to us, but they aren't to Him.

Yes, because God can perform miracle, he can go beyond law of physics. However, this in turn, this cause the problem with the concept of the mind which possess freewill, which was created by him.

[Vapour]

Originally Posted by IlluSionS667

Chaos theory has taught us that some behavior can not be predicted by man, because there's an infinitesimally large number of variables that need to be included in the calculation. This however does not mean that this behavior is not determined. This simply means that this behavior can not be determined by man because of it's complexity.

I see no reason why the situation of the universe at time X1 can't always be determined by the situation of the universe at time X0, if you know all the necessary variables. But getting to know all the necessary variables is the problem, as there are too many of them.

However, I agree that the idea of an omniscient God sounds absurd.

Ah, i'm not talking about chaos theory. I'm talking about quantum mechamics. When a radiactive decay occurs or exactly where a particular blip of light gets absorbed seem not to be determined by anything. Basically, these things just happen out of no determined specific cause. Einestein didn't think the universe couldn't be that way and famously said "God doesn't play dice"? It turned out otherwise.

Oh, there is nothing self contradictory about God being omniscient as an idea. Problem is that this idea come in conflict with the idea of freewill.

[Avinash]

Originally Posted by Vapour

Yes, because God can perform miracle, he can go beyond law of physics. However, this in turn, this cause the problem with the concept of the mind which possess freewill, which was created by him.

Namaskar,

There is no problem or conflict. Our "free will" is simply a relative one. If we could see things from His position, there is no such freedom (we are like puppets). But because we have to play our roles on the stage, we have to act as if there is such a thing as free will (and there is, from our limited viewpoint). So it's all a question of perspective or dimension.

[samabudhi]

Einestein didn't think the universe couldn't be that way and famously said "God doesn't play dice"? It turned out otherwise.

Nothings turned out any which way. We still faced with the same basic questions we always have. If the universe is infinite, how can the universe ever be calculated as being ordered or chaotic?

See my thread on Cold Fusion for what else Einstein said.

[IlluSionS667]

Originally Posted by Vapour

Ah, i'm not talking about chaos theory. I'm talking about quantum mechamics. When a radiactive decay occurs or exactly where a particular blip of light gets absorbed seem not to be determined by anything.

It seems that way, indeed. But things are not always as there seem to be. Everything in the universe is determined. Why should this be an exception?

Originally Posted by Vapour

Einstein didn't think the universe couldn't be that way and famously said "God doesn't play dice"? It turned out otherwise.

Maybe one day, science will prove Einstein to have been right after all.

Originally Posted by Vapour

Oh, there is nothing self contradictory about God being omniscient as an idea. Problem is that this idea come in conflict with the idea of freewill.

There simply is no necessity for such a God, and it's uncredible.

Originally Posted by samabudhi

If the universe is infinite, how can the universe ever be calculated as being ordered or chaotic?

Who says the universe is infinite? If the universe is curbed, it could just as well be finite, without having a beginning and an end. That's how I see the universe.

[Vapour]

ah, it's is more like concept of "space" no longer apply at certain point. therefore, infinite become incorrect usage of the term.

As of "Everything in the universe is determined", it so far being unproven presumption. In fact, at this point in time, opposite is true.

[IlluSionS667]

Originally Posted by Vapour

ah, it's is more like concept of "space" no longer apply at certain point. therefore, infinite become incorrect usage of the term.

Why would the concept of space not apply to the entire universe?

Originally Posted by Vapour

As of "Everything in the universe is determined", it so far being unproven presumption. In fact, at this point in time, opposite is true.

It's only proven that man is limited. There is no reason to assume that determination does not count for quantum effects, other than that we can't predict it.