disproving infinity paradoxes; Hilbert’s Hotel?

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Tao!

Thank you for joining the discussion!

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

So infinity is always beyond all efforts to observe as a whole. So is it like the cat and expands with observation, is infinity dependent on the observer?

I think in some sense infinity is dependent on the observer. For instance, the examples Z is positing stem from mathematical calculations...therefore the understanding created is limited by the mathematics. Z mentioned elsewhere about "omega plus," wherein I presume omega to represent infinity. This would represent a mathematical "fudge factor" to overcome the inherent stickiness surrounding the solution of infinity, at least hypothetically and confined to the realm of theoretical mathematics...not "reality."

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

And what about the reverse of outward looking infinity, what about going inward through the microscope? Is there infinite space there too?

This again provides a certain "stickiness." While it seems fairly well understood that even within the confines of a single atom there is a great deal of empty space, it seems to me that "infinity" is not quite appropriate in this sub-atomic realm...although I can grant that it may well be a "matter" of perspective. As we exist in a realm above and beyond that of a single atom (indeed, many many multiples of atoms), from our perspective infinity would not apply.

Now, we could easily wander into "what ifs" that reflect the concept that our "reality" is but an illusory dream of some god. If an atom is a mirror of a solar system, and there happened to be sentient beings existing on one or more satellites, then I suppose an argument might be made that "relatively speaking" that vast emptiness that would continue on into further atoms might be considered infinite.

This is why I hesitate to consider the vastness of the universe to be infinite in the "never ending" sense to be a little presumptive...that the universe may well have an end. Even so, that end is so very far beyond our personal reach that it may as well be for all practical purposes infinite. In the sense of "totality," whatever totality eventually figures out to be, I can see the universe as infinite. Everything that is of concern to us is confined within this totality.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Z!

Originally Posted by _Z_

excellent description which completely agrees with where i am going here - thank you! i have had a seven page battle with mathematicians at another forum and they just don’t get it.

Nor would I expect mathematicians to "get it." They are engulfed in their own dogma of hypotheticals. To hypothetically surmise is one thing...it is an exercise of the brain. To take for granted that a hypothetical is factual is where people...any people using any dogmatic hypothetical...get lost on their own tangent. This is why I still hold string theory and multiple universe concepts at arm's length until proven otherwise.

Originally Posted by _Z_

zero is interesting, someone said that the combined value of all energy in the universe is zero.

I would have to see this worked out to understand, I'm afraid it makes no sense to me.

Originally Posted by _Z_

the interesting thing about infinity is that you may produce as many zero’s as you like as long as they have no value they don’t create a paradox, then when we consider the above, that the universe itself emanates from zero, then infinity become a fascinating and interesting field of exploration - for me this includes creation and eminationary notions.

Something from nothing? Interesting concept. I am wondering if the reality is somewhere more in the middle...that zero is the balance to infinity, without both reality could not functionally exist.

Originally Posted by _Z_

so hands off science it (infinity) belongs to us

No harm, no foul, so long as it is understood that questioning the nature of infinity is an exercise to stimulate the mind and explore the vastness of mystery. Some here call it the mind of the unknowing, the mind of the seeker. It is when we decide we have found the answer that we often get ourselves into deep doo-doo. There's always someone happy to come along later and show us where and how we are mistaken in our assumptions.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Something from nothing? Interesting concept. I am wondering if the reality is somewhere more in the middle...that zero is the balance to infinity, without both reality could not functionally exist.

Well if you add up all the values of all the numbers in an all-encompassing numerical infinity, the net amount would be zero, because for every positive value, there is also a corresponding negative value. {Interesting, when you use zero as a reference point, you get a sort of positive/negative duality within the infinite singularity.}

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by _Z_

disproving infinity paradoxes; Hilbert’s Hotel?

I prefer the Hilton...

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Seattlegal!

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Well if you add up all the values of all the numbers in an all-encompassing numerical infinity, the net amount would be zero, because for every positive value, there is also a corresponding negative value. {Interesting, when you use zero as a reference point, you get a sort of positive/negative duality within the infinite singularity.}

Thank you for the clarification. I presume this is still within the realm of theorhetical mathematics. Are these negative values assigned to "anti-" and / or "dark" matter / energy?

What continues to mystify me concerning the expansion of the universe is that more and more astronomers are coming to the conclusion that galaxies are speeding up as they race away from each other... I am not versed well enough to explain, but it seems this creates complications regarding theorhetical calculations regarding mass / energy on an universal scale.

[flowperson]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

I prefer the Hilton...

Ermmm...would that be the "paris" Hilton ? Sorry.

flow....

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Ermmm...would that be the "paris" Hilton ? Sorry.

flow....

GROAN...

[cyberpi]

Math is a language and languages have flaws. A flaw in math is infinity. The only thing infinite is nothing. Nothing is infinite. The moment anything is something... it is not infinite. Don't believe me? Infinity is realized by dividing something by nothing. Take a finite pie in your hands and divide it into pieces of nothing (zero). What do you get? Infinite PIE? Infinite pieces of PIE? Or... infinite pieces of nothing. As I said truthfully, the only thing infinite is nothing.

Perhaps it looks good on paper or appears sensible in mind (Western education) to say that there are an infinite number of primes, or an infinite number of odds, or an infinite number of evens; however, the reality is that to positively check something (as opposed to nothing) for prime, or odd, or even, requires dividing it... and the whacked out mathmetician already maintains that you have to divide something into pieces of nothing to get infinity. For example to find out if a number is even or odd requires dividing it by two. What is infinity divided by two? Uh-huh. Ok, so a pick a very large number and divide it by two. The number picked is not infinite. Infinity is neither even, nor odd, nor a number. Sorry, there are NOT an infinite number of evens, or odds, or primes, or numbers. It is a LIE to say that there is. It is a real, tangible, finite FALSEHOOD to say that numbers are infinite. Numbers are NOT infinite.

I'm sorry to ruin the math, but there are a finite number of numbers. You think I am wrong? Try writing down digits for the rest of your life. The number that you will have written down is finite. The only thing infinite is nothing, so the moment the very first digit was written down it was all over. The moment that there is any definition whatsoever to anything wherein it becomes something in this world, then it is finite. Nothing is infinite... the only thing infinite is nothing. Under no mathematically, scientifically, or humanly known circumstance has there EVER been something infinite, except in the whacked out minds of the followers of mathematics... and maybe a few other religions. The overwhelming majority in schools who oppressively learn the language will surely disagree with me. Fine... so name one thing that is composed or even potentially composed of something... that is infinite. Sorry... wrong. Zilch... nada... nothing. The only thing infinite is nothing.

A lot of people tend to relate God and infinity. Infinite wisdom, power, sight, potential, etc... but I find that God is something, whereas nothing is not.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by _Z_

the infinity lamp
this puzzle is a lot simpler than the hotel one, and i think we can resolve a few issues with it.
quote:
Question. Consider a very durable ceiling lamp that has an on-off pull string. Say that the string is to be pulled at noon every day, for the rest of time. If the lamp starts out off, will it be on or off after an infinite number of days have passed?

Days are not infinite in number.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by _Z_

disproving infinity paradoxes; Hilbert’s Hotel?

i thought i would have a crack at this ole chesnut, see what you think?
here’s the infinite-hotel puzzle (also known as "Hilbert’s Hotel"); In a hotel containing infinitely many rooms, all of which are full, how do you find room for infinitely many new guests?

There is no hotel that can contain an infinite number of rooms.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

It would seem that there should be some differentiation in terms between intrinsic infinity: infinity of itself, cyclical infinity, and apparent infinity. A self-perpetuating closed system has an aspect of infinity, as does the output of a randomly generated effect.

Chris

There is no known self-perpetuating closed system. If there was something in a perpetual cycle and someone knew about it, then it was not a closed system.

An allegedly randomly generated effect has a finite number of outputs. Flip a coin... there are a finite number of ways and places that it can land. While there may be many outputs, non-caused or of an unkown cause (random)... they are simply not infinite.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Math is a language and languages have flaws. A flaw in math is infinity. The only thing infinite is nothing. Nothing is infinite. The moment anything is something... it is not infinite. Don't believe me? Infinity is realized by dividing something by nothing. Take a finite pie in your hands and divide it into pieces of nothing (zero). What do you get? Infinite PIE? Infinite pieces of PIE? Or... infinite pieces of nothing. As I said truthfully, the only thing infinite is nothing.

Perhaps it looks good on paper or appears sensible in mind (Western education) to say that there are an infinite number of primes, or an infinite number of odds, or an infinite number of evens; however, the reality is that to positively check something (as opposed to nothing) for prime, or odd, or even, requires dividing it... and the whacked out mathmetician already maintains that you have to divide something into pieces of nothing to get infinity. For example to find out if a number is even or odd requires dividing it by two. What is infinity divided by two? Uh-huh. Ok, so a pick a very large number and divide it by two. The number picked is not infinite. Infinity is neither even, nor odd, nor a number. Sorry, there are NOT an infinite number of evens, or odds, or primes, or numbers. It is a LIE to say that there is. It is a real, tangible, finite FALSEHOOD to say that numbers are infinite. Numbers are NOT infinite.

I'm sorry to ruin the math, but there are a finite number of numbers. You think I am wrong? Try writing down digits for the rest of your life. The number that you will have written down is finite. The only thing infinite is nothing, so the moment the very first digit was written down it was all over. The moment that there is any definition whatsoever to anything wherein it becomes something in this world, then it is finite. Nothing is infinite... the only thing infinite is nothing. Under no mathematically, scientifically, or humanly known circumstance has there EVER been something infinite, except in the whacked out minds of the followers of mathematics... and maybe a few other religions. The overwhelming majority in schools who oppressively learn the language will surely disagree with me. Fine... so name one thing that is composed or even potentially composed of something... that is infinite. Sorry... wrong. Zilch... nada... nothing. The only thing infinite is nothing.

A lot of people tend to relate God and infinity. Infinite wisdom, power, sight, potential, etc... but I find that God is something, whereas nothing is not.

Nicely put. Clever. But....
We cannot count very fast. Set a supercomputer the task to count for an infinite amount of time and it will count infinitely. A number is something and the potential of consecutive numbers is infinite. Is potential something? I believe it is. So while I admire the logic you express and agree with it on the basis you present it it is dependent on a closed system that is not in harmony with my beliefs on reality. A closed system cannot exist in nothing.

Regards

Tao

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Math is a language and languages have flaws. A flaw in math is infinity. The only thing infinite is nothing. Nothing is infinite. The moment anything is something... it is not infinite. Don't believe me? Infinity is realized by dividing something by nothing. Take a finite pie in your hands and divide it into pieces of nothing (zero). What do you get? Infinite PIE? Infinite pieces of PIE? Or... infinite pieces of nothing. As I said truthfully, the only thing infinite is nothing.

Perhaps it looks good on paper or appears sensible in mind (Western education) to say that there are an infinite number of primes, or an infinite number of odds, or an infinite number of evens; however, the reality is that to positively check something (as opposed to nothing) for prime, or odd, or even, requires dividing it... and the whacked out mathmetician already maintains that you have to divide something into pieces of nothing to get infinity. For example to find out if a number is even or odd requires dividing it by two. What is infinity divided by two? Uh-huh. Ok, so a pick a very large number and divide it by two. The number picked is not infinite. Infinity is neither even, nor odd, nor a number. Sorry, there are NOT an infinite number of evens, or odds, or primes, or numbers. It is a LIE to say that there is. It is a real, tangible, finite FALSEHOOD to say that numbers are infinite. Numbers are NOT infinite.

I'm sorry to ruin the math, but there are a finite number of numbers. You think I am wrong? Try writing down digits for the rest of your life. The number that you will have written down is finite. The only thing infinite is nothing, so the moment the very first digit was written down it was all over. The moment that there is any definition whatsoever to anything wherein it becomes something in this world, then it is finite. Nothing is infinite... the only thing infinite is nothing. Under no mathematically, scientifically, or humanly known circumstance has there EVER been something infinite, except in the whacked out minds of the followers of mathematics... and maybe a few other religions. The overwhelming majority in schools who oppressively learn the language will surely disagree with me. Fine... so name one thing that is composed or even potentially composed of something... that is infinite. Sorry... wrong. Zilch... nada... nothing. The only thing infinite is nothing.

A lot of people tend to relate God and infinity. Infinite wisdom, power, sight, potential, etc... but I find that God is something, whereas nothing is not.

Infinity comes from Latin, meaning 'unbound.' Just because you cannot wrap your head around it doesn't mean that it does not exist. (Unless, of course, you believe there is nothing that exists that you cannot wrap your head around.)

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Nicely put. Clever. But....
We cannot count very fast. Set a supercomputer the task to count for an infinite amount of time and it will count infinitely. A number is something and the potential of consecutive numbers is infinite. Is potential something? I believe it is. So while I admire the logic you express and agree with it on the basis you present it it is dependent on a closed system that is not in harmony with my beliefs on reality. A closed system cannot exist in nothing.

Regards

Tao

Well thanks, but the lifetime of a supercomputer is so finite that the average human has outlived every single one of them. The moon orbiting the planet is on far more of an infinite loop than any supercomputer or any man made object; however, even that moon is not in an infinite loop. There simply is no infinite loop. If supercomputers ran infinite loops then they would defy thermodynamics, the fallacy of a closed system, everlasting existance outside of time, and a perpetual closed system outside of time. Software programmers have indoctrinated some of the same whacked out concepts that mathematicians have had, and the term 'infinite loop' is one of them.

In computers the term 'infinite loop' means that its trajectory through its memory gets stuck into a loop without branches or method of input to stop it or alter it... which is a LIE. There are always at least two. The computer is like a wheel being pushed down an extremely long but finite hill, often bumped side to side onto a finite number of trajectories. An infinite loop simply means that it appears stuck rolling down one trajectory. Appears. The wheel is a crystal oscillator and whatever phase locked loops (geared wheels) that are attached to it and set up on a rolling cycle through time. Those components have a finite lifetime that is presently less than a human heart. They will fail... if you purchase a computer it is not a matter of IF, but WHEN. The trajectory of the wheel is bounced around by the pattern on the hard drive, memory, and many switches. Most of the switches are called transistors, which are finite in number and do not multiply on their own. There are at least two major switches though that are extremely key. 1. Input power switch. 2. Cooling switch. The cooling switch, venting port, or other means is often hidden but easily used to stop the loop whereas the input power switch will ALWAYS be there and accessible for one simple reason... the loop had to be started (wheel down the hill) and it always starts with the power switch.

The next problem is basic thermodynamics... that computer is fed a diet of electrons that have to come from somewhere and it has to poop heat / infra-red in order to survive. The two switches... if whatever they are switched to fails to supply electrons or a means to cool, then the alleged infinite loop is going to reveal itself as finite. In the analogy of a wheel rolling down the hill that hill may be very long... but it is finite. If the cycle of the Earth around the Sun is finite... that computer's supply of electrons is definitely finite.

But lets just say that time were infinite and that a cycle or a loop of something were somehow encapsulated into a closed system where nothing could touch it, interact with it, measure it, resist it, diminish it, stop it, or otherwise alter it for an infinite length of time. Lets just throw the thermodynamics out as a worldly rule that someone or something might alter or completely void out someday. This way the computer would be running on its own infinite power source and pooping electrons into an infinite reservoir. STILL, there is a major problem. What came before the allegedly infinite loop was started? An infinite loop has no start. The loop has to have been running the whole time for an incountable (infinite) number of times. If it was just started last week, last year, or in the last millenium, then it is NOT an infinite loop. The loop was finite upon existance and at every count of the loop since then it has been finite. At no time will that loop ever be infinite. At every moment of its existance the loop will be finite regardless of how long it carries on for. There will always exist a number in math for the number of times the cycle has turned. Add as many digits or decimal places to the count of the number of loops or the number of cycles as you like... it will always be finite. It was finite the moment it came into existance for the mere fact that it came into existance... and it will thus forever be finite.

Infinity is such an extreme concept that absolutely nothing is infinite. Seriously... the only thing infinite is NOTHING.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Infinity comes from Latin, meaning 'unbound.' Just because you cannot wrap your head around it doesn't mean that it does not exist. (Unless, of course, you believe there is nothing that exists that you cannot wrap your head around.)

Cheers Seattlegal. I am essentially stating that Infinity exists in the same manner that Santa Claus exists. I am futher stating that the only thing truly 'unbound' is nothing.

I am comfortable with an extremely large, separate, distant, and non-understood world (or person, soul, God) without resorting to being an extremist in declaring that it can be 'unbound' from everything... and yet, I understand the extremist viewpoint of a thing 'unbound'. I am associating it with a proper name... that unbound thing is called 'nothing'. Nothing is unbound because the only thing completely unbounded is nothing.