Differing Views of God - Page 3

bananabrain · 01-14-2004, 10:57 AM

"bill"? who is bill? are you getting confused by my quote from the 'big yin'?

Quote:

the reasons why something started though is not always how it turns out ultimately.

exactly - but we actually have our own set of checks and balances on this, which are part of the Oral Law.

Quote:

that's why i cited Jesus as apparently disapproving of how things were run in the Temple precincts

the Temple precincts of jesus' time came in for a lot of criticism, once the high priesthood had passed into the dynastic control of the hasmoneans and the political influence of the sadducees - but this criticism comes very much from the *rabbis*, who were to a certain extent part of this system in that they used the Temple and served on the sanhedrin and, to a certain extent, provided the principal opposition to the corruption that was taking over the system at the time. jesus, to this way of thinking, turns into a somewhat radical country preacher that doesn't like the way things are done in the big city. this is not such a bad thing from a jewish point of view.

Quote:

Being a Baha'i though, our belief is in a concept known as "Progressive Revelation" which accepts that G-d can revise the laws and requirements as He sees fit.

well, that is all very well, but we don't believe that G!D has ever revised the laws and requirements that he gave to the jews at sinai. we may have explained them further and their implications, via commentary and interpretation, but the core of Torah remains. this refers to *jewish* laws and requirements, not anything else or anyone else's revelations, laws or requirements.

b'shalom

bananabrain

arthra · 01-14-2004, 12:43 PM

Yes "bananabrain", well I apologize for my confusion i mistakenly called you "Bill"

and i appreciate your response.

Good and accurate information that you've supplied regarding the Hasmoneans and I liked your reference to Jesus:

"jesus, to this way of thinking, turns into a somewhat radical country preacher that doesn't like the way things are done in the big city. this is not such a bad thing from a jewish point of view."

I suppose our difference would be in the last remark about whether G-d can change His laws for us.

- Art

Susma Rio Sep · 01-14-2004, 01:23 PM

I suppose our difference would be in the last remark about whether G-d can change His laws for us.

- Art

Of course God is immutable in Himself. Can and will He change His laws for us? Being immutable doesn't seem to allow for that option.

But with the Catholic Church, God's laws as the Author of the Christian Dispensation, aka, history of salvation, are immutable provided they have been propagated by the Church through infallible pronouncement.

The trouble is when the Church has changed some rule of moral or some article of faith. Just the same, the Church can and has also reasoned out with her expert theologians that things were not infallibly declared to be from God; so that accusation of change or error would not stick.

In effect, God's laws in the Catholic Church do change, only after a long long time, when the infraction of a law is more the rule than the exception. The wait will not be long now when artificial contraception is allowed by the Catholic Church -- then her theologians will have a great job explaining how there was no real drastic change.

I don’t take all that seriously though, for being a postgraduate Catholic.

Susma Rio Sep

arthra · 01-14-2004, 03:33 PM

Thanks Susma for your elucidation of the Catholic perspective!

Susma quoting me:

I suppose our difference would be in the last remark about whether G-d can change His laws for us.

Responded:

"Of course God is immutable in Himself. Can and will He change His laws for us? Being immutable doesn't seem to allow for that option.

But with the Catholic Church, God's laws as the Author of the Christian Dispensation, aka, history of salvation, are immutable provided they have been propagated by the Church through infallible pronouncement."

I'd also like to clarify how Baha'is see it by quoting Robert Stockman a well known Baha'i writer among us:

'Abdu'l-Bahá noted that "the world of existence is progressive. It is subject to development and growth" (Promulgation of Universal Peace, 378). Since revelation is part of the world, thus it must also develop and change; and the progressive revealing of divine truth is one of the main causes for the progress of human civilization. The Bahá'í scriptures assert that while all revelations bring eternal and unchanging teachings--such as teachings about one's relation to the divine, and moral fundamentals such as doing unto others as one would have them do to oneself--each also brings truths suited to its own time and place.

Source:

http://bahai-library.com/?file=stock...elation .html

So there are spiritual truths and some basic ethical teachings that don't change but there are also laws that are changed according to circumstances and the growing needs of humanity.

Also:

Abdul-Baha noted:

"One division concerns the world of morality and ethical institutions. These are the essential ordinances. They instill and awaken the knowledge and love of God, love for humanity, the virtues of the world of mankind, the attributes of the divine kingdom, rebirth and resurrection from the kingdom of nature. These constitute one kind of divine law which is common to all and never subject to change. From the dawn of the Adamic cycle to the present day this fundamental law of God has continued changeless. This is the foundation of divine religion.

"The second division comprises laws and institutions which provide for human needs and conditions according to exigencies of time and place. These are accidental, of no essential importance and should never have been made the cause and source of human contention."

Baha'is believe there are certain principles that should be adopted that were revealed by Baha'u'llah around the 1870's ...among them is the establishment of a world government based of a federal parliamentary system, the elimination of the extremes of wealth and poverty, elimenation of racial prejudice and so on.... These would be extensions of the basic moral and ethical teachings of the world's religions.

- Art

bananabrain · 01-14-2004, 03:53 PM

fortunately for us judaism doesn't nail its theological trousers to the mast in such a manner, thus possibly necessitating embarrassing climbdowns in the future.

b'shalom

bananabrain

bob x · 01-14-2004, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bananabrain

there are a number of explanations, depending upon the perspective of the commentator concerned...

Interesting. I had only been aware of explanation 1 (that the law hadn't been given yet). For those of the other lines of thought, who think the incest laws were always in place, what do they think about where Cain and Seth got their wives? Cain maybe sinned by marrying a sister, but Seth's wife was the daughter of Lilith and Steve?

I, Brian · 01-15-2004, 12:47 PM

Steve?

bananabrain · 01-15-2004, 05:30 PM

i think that's exactly bob's point, brian. anyway, bob, i think there are a bunch of other explanations, ranging from "it was OK only that one time" to "there are other births that the text doesn't mention" - perhaps although adam's family are directly created, the rest of humanity evolves. anyway, it is mostly significant because lot's daughters are punished for committing incest with him, although they believe that they are thereby repopulating the world after they think everyone was killed in the destruction of sodom and gomorrah. either way it doesn't exactly keep me awake at night.

b'shalom

bananabrain

Quahom1 · 01-16-2004, 08:01 AM

In order to ensure the viability of a colony of humans (no DNA degredation), 5000 unique people are required.

Now, if the story of ADAM and EVE is to be believed, they:

1. Had to have given birth to 857 children in 900 years, or/and

2. Had to have other neighbors that we don't know about, or/and

3. DNA evolved radically within their offspring, inorder to perpetuate the species.

4. (this is kind of radical) Adam had two wives, and all the above apply. This is not my idea, but a friend who thinks that the XX XY varients of human chromosones may be linked to this two female/one male concept. (Hey, I said I'd include it in my thoughts).

The way I figure it, since God gave me a particular set of equipment, and a brain that can't follow all the nuances of my current mate, what the hell would I want two for?...unless I was suicidal. Hmmm, maybe that IS WHY ADAM BIT INTO THE APPLE.

arthra · 01-16-2004, 03:27 PM

Baha'is don't accept that there were no people before Adam as Baha'u'llah revealed in the following:

And now regarding thy question, "How is it that no records are to be found concerning the Prophets that have preceded Adam, the Father of Mankind, or of the kings that lived in the days of those Prophets?" Know thou that the absence of any reference to them is no proof that they did not actually exist. That no records concerning them are now available, should be attributed to their extreme remoteness, as well as to the vast changes which the earth hath undergone since their time.
2
Moreover such forms and modes of writing as are now current amongst men were unknown to the generations that were before Adam. There was even a time when men were wholly ignorant of the art of writing, and had adopted a system entirely different from the one which they now use. For a proper exposition of this an elaborate explanation would be required.
3

- Gleanings LXXXVII

Source:

http://bahai-library.org/writings/ba...h/gwb/087.html

So trying to reconcile the Bible with science in this regard is not an issue for us. We believe that the story of Aadm and Eve is allegorical and has spiritual significance. Abdul-Baha Who was the Interpretor of the Baha'i Writings suggested:

"We must reflect a little: if the literal meaning of this story were attributed to a wise man, certainly all would logically deny that this arrangement, this invention, could have emanated from an intelligent being. Therefore, this story of Adam and Eve who ate from the tree, and their expulsion from Paradise, must be thought of simply as a symbol. It contains divine mysteries and universal meanings, and it is capable of marvelous explanations. Only those who are initiated into mysteries, and those who are near the Court of the All-Powerful, are aware of these secrets. Hence these verses of the Bible have numerous meanings."

Some Answered Questions Part Two -- Some Christian Subjects
"ADAM AND EVE"

Source:
http://bahai-library.org/writings/abdulbaha/saq/30.html

- Art

Vajradhara · 01-16-2004, 04:09 PM

Namaste all,

didn't they determine a few years ago that all humans can be traced back to 7 females through MDNA?

bob x · 01-17-2004, 07:26 AM

"Steve?

"
That's from a slogan among the gay-basher Christians in the US, "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!"

"didn't they determine a few years ago that all humans can be traced back to 7 females through MDNA?"
That is only the mitochondrial DNA, that is passed from your mother's mother's mother's mother's.... mother. You still have autosomal DNA from your mother's father's father's mother's.... mother, who is not one of the 7. The Y-chromosomal DNA (father's father's...) likewise goes back to only a limited subset of the males who lived way back when.

Quahom1 · 01-17-2004, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob x

"Steve?

"
That's from a slogan among the gay-basher Christians in the US, "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!"

"didn't they determine a few years ago that all humans can be traced back to 7 females through MDNA?"
That is only the mitochondrial DNA, that is passed from your mother's mother's mother's mother's.... mother. You still have autosomal DNA from your mother's father's father's mother's.... mother, who is not one of the 7. The Y-chromosomal DNA (father's father's...) likewise goes back to only a limited subset of the males who lived way back when.

Unfortunately, Christians are not the only people to corner the market, when it comes to bashing...Gay advocates are just as cruel.

kind of reminds me of a school yard brawl...no one wins, but everyone loses.

bob x · 01-20-2004, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

when it comes to bashing...Gay advocates are just as cruel.

I've never heard of anyone beaten to death by "gay advocates"....

suanni · 02-23-2004, 03:21 AM

Back to the original question at hand. I've never heard of another perspective of God other than the usual Christian and pagan perspectives. However, I suppose me being different(!) I view the Maker of all slightly different. I'm not sure of what form The Maker takes. In my opinion mankind personified the Maker in order to identify with something he couldn't see but knew was there, hence the many different views of the Maker and the different takes on how to honour & love the Maker. And I believe that nobody is wrong in the way that they love The Maker.

01-14-2004, 01:23 PM	#33 (permalink)
Susma Rio Sep Executive Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 817	No problems with Catholics I suppose our difference would be in the last remark about whether G-d can change His laws for us. - Art Of course God is immutable in Himself. Can and will He change His laws for us? Being immutable doesn't seem to allow for that option. But with the Catholic Church, God's laws as the Author of the Christian Dispensation, aka, history of salvation, are immutable provided they have been propagated by the Church through infallible pronouncement. The trouble is when the Church has changed some rule of moral or some article of faith. Just the same, the Church can and has also reasoned out with her expert theologians that things were not infallibly declared to be from God; so that accusation of change or error would not stick. In effect, God's laws in the Catholic Church do change, only after a long long time, when the infraction of a law is more the rule than the exception. The wait will not be long now when artificial contraception is allowed by the Catholic Church -- then her theologians will have a great job explaining how there was no real drastic change. I don’t take all that seriously though, for being a postgraduate Catholic. Susma Rio Sep

01-16-2004, 08:01 AM	#39 (permalink)
Quahom1 moderator inaslittleas... Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 7,444	Viability of a colony requires 5000 life forms In order to ensure the viability of a colony of humans (no DNA degredation), 5000 unique people are required. Now, if the story of ADAM and EVE is to be believed, they: 1. Had to have given birth to 857 children in 900 years, or/and 2. Had to have other neighbors that we don't know about, or/and 3. DNA evolved radically within their offspring, inorder to perpetuate the species. 4. (this is kind of radical) Adam had two wives, and all the above apply. This is not my idea, but a friend who thinks that the XX XY varients of human chromosones may be linked to this two female/one male concept. (Hey, I said I'd include it in my thoughts). The way I figure it, since God gave me a particular set of equipment, and a brain that can't follow all the nuances of my current mate, what the hell would I want two for?...unless I was suicidal. Hmmm, maybe that IS WHY ADAM BIT INTO THE APPLE.

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01-14-2004, 12:43 PM	#32 (permalink)
arthra A friend Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California Posts: 1,385	Yes "bananabrain", well I apologize for my confusion i mistakenly called you "Bill" and i appreciate your response. Good and accurate information that you've supplied regarding the Hasmoneans and I liked your reference to Jesus: "jesus, to this way of thinking, turns into a somewhat radical country preacher that doesn't like the way things are done in the big city. this is not such a bad thing from a jewish point of view." I suppose our difference would be in the last remark about whether G-d can change His laws for us. - Art

01-14-2004, 03:33 PM	#34 (permalink)
arthra A friend Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California Posts: 1,385	Thanks Susma for your elucidation of the Catholic perspective! Susma quoting me: I suppose our difference would be in the last remark about whether G-d can change His laws for us. Responded: "Of course God is immutable in Himself. Can and will He change His laws for us? Being immutable doesn't seem to allow for that option. But with the Catholic Church, God's laws as the Author of the Christian Dispensation, aka, history of salvation, are immutable provided they have been propagated by the Church through infallible pronouncement." I'd also like to clarify how Baha'is see it by quoting Robert Stockman a well known Baha'i writer among us: 'Abdu'l-Bahá noted that "the world of existence is progressive. It is subject to development and growth" (Promulgation of Universal Peace, 378). Since revelation is part of the world, thus it must also develop and change; and the progressive revealing of divine truth is one of the main causes for the progress of human civilization. The Bahá'í scriptures assert that while all revelations bring eternal and unchanging teachings--such as teachings about one's relation to the divine, and moral fundamentals such as doing unto others as one would have them do to oneself--each also brings truths suited to its own time and place. Source: http://bahai-library.com/?file=stock...elation .html So there are spiritual truths and some basic ethical teachings that don't change but there are also laws that are changed according to circumstances and the growing needs of humanity. Also: Abdul-Baha noted: "One division concerns the world of morality and ethical institutions. These are the essential ordinances. They instill and awaken the knowledge and love of God, love for humanity, the virtues of the world of mankind, the attributes of the divine kingdom, rebirth and resurrection from the kingdom of nature. These constitute one kind of divine law which is common to all and never subject to change. From the dawn of the Adamic cycle to the present day this fundamental law of God has continued changeless. This is the foundation of divine religion. "The second division comprises laws and institutions which provide for human needs and conditions according to exigencies of time and place. These are accidental, of no essential importance and should never have been made the cause and source of human contention." Baha'is believe there are certain principles that should be adopted that were revealed by Baha'u'llah around the 1870's ...among them is the establishment of a world government based of a federal parliamentary system, the elimination of the extremes of wealth and poverty, elimenation of racial prejudice and so on.... These would be extensions of the basic moral and ethical teachings of the world's religions. - Art

01-14-2004, 03:53 PM	#35 (permalink)
bananabrain Super Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: London, UK, Malkhut she'be'Assiyah Posts: 1,444	fortunately for us judaism doesn't nail its theological trousers to the mast in such a manner, thus possibly necessitating embarrassing climbdowns in the future. b'shalom bananabrain

01-15-2004, 12:47 PM	#37 (permalink)
I, Brian Soul Rebel Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Highlands of Scotland Posts: 4,604	Steve?

01-15-2004, 05:30 PM	#38 (permalink)
bananabrain Super Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: London, UK, Malkhut she'be'Assiyah Posts: 1,444	i think that's exactly bob's point, brian. anyway, bob, i think there are a bunch of other explanations, ranging from "it was OK only that one time" to "there are other births that the text doesn't mention" - perhaps although adam's family are directly created, the rest of humanity evolves. anyway, it is mostly significant because lot's daughters are punished for committing incest with him, although they believe that they are thereby repopulating the world after they think everyone was killed in the destruction of sodom and gomorrah. either way it doesn't exactly keep me awake at night. b'shalom bananabrain

01-16-2004, 03:27 PM	#40 (permalink)
arthra A friend Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California Posts: 1,385	Baha'is don't accept that there were no people before Adam as Baha'u'llah revealed in the following: And now regarding thy question, "How is it that no records are to be found concerning the Prophets that have preceded Adam, the Father of Mankind, or of the kings that lived in the days of those Prophets?" Know thou that the absence of any reference to them is no proof that they did not actually exist. That no records concerning them are now available, should be attributed to their extreme remoteness, as well as to the vast changes which the earth hath undergone since their time. 2 Moreover such forms and modes of writing as are now current amongst men were unknown to the generations that were before Adam. There was even a time when men were wholly ignorant of the art of writing, and had adopted a system entirely different from the one which they now use. For a proper exposition of this an elaborate explanation would be required. 3 - Gleanings LXXXVII Source: http://bahai-library.org/writings/ba...h/gwb/087.html So trying to reconcile the Bible with science in this regard is not an issue for us. We believe that the story of Aadm and Eve is allegorical and has spiritual significance. Abdul-Baha Who was the Interpretor of the Baha'i Writings suggested: "We must reflect a little: if the literal meaning of this story were attributed to a wise man, certainly all would logically deny that this arrangement, this invention, could have emanated from an intelligent being. Therefore, this story of Adam and Eve who ate from the tree, and their expulsion from Paradise, must be thought of simply as a symbol. It contains divine mysteries and universal meanings, and it is capable of marvelous explanations. Only those who are initiated into mysteries, and those who are near the Court of the All-Powerful, are aware of these secrets. Hence these verses of the Bible have numerous meanings." Some Answered Questions Part Two -- Some Christian Subjects "ADAM AND EVE" Source: http://bahai-library.org/writings/abdulbaha/saq/30.html - Art

01-16-2004, 04:09 PM	#41 (permalink)
Vajradhara Mod ~ Eastern Thought Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Dharmadhatu Posts: 2,650	Namaste all, didn't they determine a few years ago that all humans can be traced back to 7 females through MDNA?

01-17-2004, 07:26 AM	#42 (permalink)
bob x Executive Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 912	"Steve? " That's from a slogan among the gay-basher Christians in the US, "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!" "didn't they determine a few years ago that all humans can be traced back to 7 females through MDNA?" That is only the mitochondrial DNA, that is passed from your mother's mother's mother's mother's.... mother. You still have autosomal DNA from your mother's father's father's mother's.... mother, who is not one of the 7. The Y-chromosomal DNA (father's father's...) likewise goes back to only a limited subset of the males who lived way back when.

02-23-2004, 03:21 AM	#45 (permalink)
suanni Confused Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: NE, England Posts: 184	Back to the original question at hand. I've never heard of another perspective of God other than the usual Christian and pagan perspectives. However, I suppose me being different(!) I view the Maker of all slightly different. I'm not sure of what form The Maker takes. In my opinion mankind personified the Maker in order to identify with something he couldn't see but knew was there, hence the many different views of the Maker and the different takes on how to honour & love the Maker. And I believe that nobody is wrong in the way that they love The Maker.