Differing beliefs, one truth

[cavalier]

I guess this is pretty basic stuff for many of you. I hope you'll excuse that, I'm really only beginning my spiritual journey.

I was brought up in the reformed churches, but stopped going when I was a teenager because I couldn't accept their idea of God. While at university I became very interested in Buddhism, especially Zen. I also went to a few Baha'i meetings, and church services of several different Christian denominations.

The more I looked, the more I studied, the more I saw similarities between the different religions, the same truth expressed in a different way.

I wouldn't, at present, say I definitely believe it, but I can certainly see how the world's religions could simply be different expressions of the same ultimate truth.

Your thoughts, whether you agree or not, would be much appreciated.

Andy

[Eudaimonist]

Another possibility is that when people stare at the universe, they find their psychologies staring right back at them. I wouldn't take agreement among the world religions as necessarily a sign that "ultimate truth" has been found.


eudaimonia,

Mark

[seattlegal]

You might want to check out this thread, cavalier.
The Golden Rule

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by cavalier

I guess this is pretty basic stuff for many of you. I hope you'll excuse that, I'm really only beginning my spiritual journey.

...

The more I looked, the more I studied, the more I saw similarities between the different religions, the same truth expressed in a different way.

I wouldn't, at present, say I definitely believe it, but I can certainly see how the world's religions could simply be different expressions of the same ultimate truth.

Your thoughts, whether you agree or not, would be much appreciated.

Andy,

The question you are looking at is one that I started asked in my teens, and continued to ask throughout my twenties, but I would say that by 18 or 19 my answer was - `Truth is One, paths are many.' 15 years later, I have added to my answer, but I know it rests on this foundation as Rock Solid. And I think that this is an approach that many at CR either hold, or highly respect.

Seattlegal's reference to the thread on the `Golden Rule' is presumably meant to emphasize the universality of this teaching or Ideal when it comes to religious and spiritual traditions. It is one among many, many such teachings ... beginning with such ideas as the Respect for all Life based on inherent Dignity, Sanctity of both person and place, and moving toward more metaphysical ideas such as the nature & types of various energies both within the world (immanent) and transcendent.

While allowing for the differences, and accepting that practitioners of a given tradition have strong feelings about their own religious path, it is not difficult to see that are more commonalities than there are discrepancies. For me, this has always been a source of great Joy, showing me that Inspiration is not something limited to one people, at one place or at one specific time in our history (past) - but is available to all people, everywhere, always (now)!

Some religions treat various subjects with a keen focus on tradition, often involving much ritual & ceremonial. Others are equally structured, but focus less on outward observance and tend to internalize, or emphasize the subjective. This is much like the difference between people with extroverted vs. introverted personalities. My own observation is that the various religious differences reflect the socio-cultural, political, and geographical climate around the world, throughout the various periods of recent history - with an obvious impulse (an ensouling energy, if you will) which cannot adequately be explained by these factors alone, and is attributable largely to the Founder(s) of the religion in question (plus contributors throughout the ages).

I think your challenge - is to continue asking the question, since you will find plenty of folks at CR who are thoroughly knowledgable both in their own tradition (many & diverse, fortunately!) ... as well in the area of comparative religion itself. Yet, as Eudaimonist indicates, and I would concur in this, Ultimate Truth has not only not been "found" - it cannot be found. I may be taking this farther than he intended ... but my own belief is along the lines of the Taoist statement (yes, found in every religion! ) that:

The Tao that can be named, is not the Eternal Tao.

Part of the very Purpose and reason for our physical existence, imho, is precisely the pursuit of this "ultimate truth" you mention - both in terms of Goodness (Arete, `personal excellence' - which Eudaimonist can certainly comment on) ... as well in terms of Wisdom, or understanding. We might say that Goodness is the goal (which can be viewed in terms of groups, and the Whole, not just individuals), to be arrived at through the Wisdom - which we have gained through knowledge. And the latter can come from direct experience, shared learning, or various forms of Insight (spontaneous, epiphany, Inspiration, Illumination, Intuition).

I believe that comparative religion fits largely into the latter category (knowledge), but that its true value is revealed only when we apply Wisdom, and use the tool that we have gained. `Truth is One, paths are many,' as an aphorism, is a powerful tool indeed, just as is the Golden Rule - yet neither reveals its true worth unless it is applied. But ask anyone who lives his life by either of these precepts if the sacrifice (or inconvenience) is worth it, and I think s/he or we would universally and unequivocally say - Yes. The ultimate truth ... is that that's not by coincidence.

Andrew (taijasi)

[wil]

I as well beat a similar drum...

and what was funny reading this, this time is that even athiesm is often a path to G-d for many. I'm thinking of all the former atheists I know who somewhere along their path of denying G-d and various religions...find their way to spirit. And when they do, they use their scientific analytical understanding to the utmost, for their highest...tis truly incredible.

And I was also contemplating how the many path theory to the top of the mountain includes our paths crossing over and over...and us occasionally taking a diversion on a path that is different from the one we are used to, and how we travel on that path for a while..maybe forever or maybe we turn back to our old familiar ways..or maybe later on our path crosses yet again our original path...and we embark on it again...but at a higher level on the mountain, with new vigor gained from our insights received while we traveled with others...and a new comfort level with those on the other paths...and an interest to view and travel with others on new paths occasionally...and how when you only travel one path you are often told by those on that path all the dangers and pitfalls of the other paths...even though they themselves have not seen them...they just suspect or heard stories third hand...

Thank you cavalier for enticing me to travel this road...I built a few new neuronets and bridges and paths on that mountain in my mind...had a wonderful trip utilizing the analogy while reflecting on my past and those I've encountered along the way....and another absolutely refreshing experience of the glory that is life and exploration and seeking our own path.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste cavalier,

thank you for the interesting post.

Originally Posted by cavalier

The more I looked, the more I studied, the more I saw similarities between the different religions, the same truth expressed in a different way.

hmm.. i would, generally, agree that the various world religions share many common ethical and moral imperatives, i would tend to disagree that they share a common doctrinal point of view or focus.

so, i suppose it sort of depends on what you mean by the term "truth" in this context.

I wouldn't, at present, say I definitely believe it, but I can certainly see how the world's religions could simply be different expressions of the same ultimate truth.

based on my own understanding of such things, i would disagree. mostly, i suppose, due to the fact that i do not feel human minds, at this point in our evolution at any rate, can express "ultimate truth" in any manner whatsoever.

do you prefer Cavalier or Andy?

metta,

~v

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

i would tend to disagree that they share a common doctrinal point of view or focus.

I think I would disagree with that too. What I meant I guess, and I'd say this in reply to Eudaimonist's "agreement among the world religions" aswell, was not really about doctrinal agreement, but more something I sensed, (not really sure how to explain) a personal feeling that these spiritual leaders from different traditions were basicly talking about the same thing.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

based on my own understanding of such things, i would disagree. mostly, i suppose, due to the fact that i do not feel human minds, at this point in our evolution at any rate, can express "ultimate truth" in any manner whatsoever.

Instead of " different expressions of", if I'd have written, "different graspings for the same ultimate truth" would that make any difference?

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

do you prefer Cavalier or Andy?

Thankyou for asking, whatever you want, I really don't mind. In various circles I am also known as Boris and Horse.

[cavalier]

Thank you all for the replies, food for thought.

Originally Posted by taijasi

While allowing for the differences, and accepting that practitioners of a given tradition have strong feelings about their own religious path, it is not difficult to see that are more commonalities than there are discrepancies.

Seattlegal has already written about the Golden rule. I wonder if you, Taijasi, Will, and anyone else out there could specifically highlight some more of these commonalities, point out passages, relate some experiences.

While I'm at it, more discrepancies would also be appreciated.

Thanks
Andy

[ikramoo]

Originally Posted by cavalier

I guess this is pretty basic stuff for many of you. I hope you'll excuse that, I'm really only beginning my spiritual journey.

I was brought up in the reformed churches, but stopped going when I was a teenager because I couldn't accept their idea of God. While at university I became very interested in Buddhism, especially Zen. I also went to a few Baha'i meetings, and church services of several different Christian denominations.

The more I looked, the more I studied, the more I saw similarities between the different religions, the same truth expressed in a different way.

I wouldn't, at present, say I definitely believe it, but I can certainly see how the world's religions could simply be different expressions of the same ultimate truth.

Your thoughts, whether you agree or not, would be much appreciated.

Andy

SOME VERSES OF THE QURAN TO PONDER

CHAPTER-23. VERSE-12 Verily We created man from a product of wet earth;

C-23.V-13 Then placed him as a drop (of seed) in a safe lodging;

C-23.V-14 Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators!

C-23.V-15 Then lo! after that ye surely die.

C-23.V-16 Then lo! on the Day of Resurrection ye are raised (again).

023.017 And We have created above you seven paths, and We are never unmindful of creation

023.080 And He it is Who giveth life and causeth death, and His is the difference of night and day. Have ye then no sense ?

023.081 Nay, but they say the like of that which said the men of old;

023.082 They say: When we are dead and have become (mere) dust and bones, shall we then, forsooth, be raised again ?

023.083 We were already promised this, we and our forefathers. Lo! this is naught but fables of the men of old.

023.084 Say: Unto Whom (belongeth) the earth and whosoever is therein, if ye have knowledge ?
023.085 They will say: Unto Allah. Say: Will ye not then remember ?

023.086 Say: Who is Lord of the seven heavens, and Lord of the Tremendous Throne ?

023.087 They will say: Unto Allah (all that belongeth). Say: Will ye not then keep duty (unto Him) ?

023.088 Say: In Whose hand is the dominion over all things and He protecteth, while against Him there is no protection, if ye have knowledge ?

023.089 They will say: Unto Allah (all that belongeth). Say: How then are ye bewitched ?

023.090 Nay, but We have brought them the Truth, and lo! they are liars.

027.064 Is not He (best) Who produceth creation, then reproduceth it, and Who provideth for you from the heaven and the earth ? Is there any God beside Allah ? Say: Bring your proof, if ye are truthful!

027.065 Say (O Muhammad): None in the heavens and the earth knoweth the Unseen save Allah; and they know not when they will be raised (again).

027.066 Nay, but doth their knowledge reach to the Hereafter ? Nay, for they are in doubt concerning it. Nay, for they cannot see it.

027.067 Yet those who disbelieve say: When we have become dust like our fathers, shall we verily be brought forth (again) ?

027.068 We were promised this, forsooth, we and our fathers. (All) this is naught but fables of the men of old.

[ikramoo]

My Friend ! All I Wud Say2u " Pls Read Those Verse With Open Mind And Think" May Allah Guide U & Bless U ! Aamen !

[cavalier]

Hey ikramoo,

Thanks for the reply and welcome to the site.

Perhaps I'm just being a bit stupid, but I'm not exactly sure what point you're making. I could make a decent guess, but I 'd rather ask.

Thanks
Andy

[Thaika]

Willingly or un-willingly we are here in this world,
Willingly or un-willingly we will depart from this world:

That is certain truth no one could dis-agree!

The major question is : Is there is God?
Atheist and evolutionists say : No.
Religionists say : Yes

Imam Ghazzali give logical reason WHY to believe God.He Says ' If you want me give reason to believe there is God, I tell You believe in God. Because after death nobody knows what will happen. If you find (after death)As atheist say there is no God, You will not be not questioned Why you believe in God?

On the otherhand if you find (after death) there is GOD, You will be in big problem for God will ask you why you have refused to believe me?
So my friend just believe in God!' he says.

Hope this solves the first major barrier.

Then once after believing in God what religion to follow? All religion are paths to God. As said, every prophet came and taught the people according to the people capacity of understanding, and later teaching transformed as religion or paths.

Dear Cavelier, your words 'the ultimate truth' is basic object of every religion. To explain that 'truth' there came thousands of prophets, hundreds of divine books.And now, the millions of books filled in the world libraries to explain those sacred books and the prophetic words.

Basically all religion asked humanity to piety,humble and honest, abstain from anger, lust, and hypocrisy.So if we are humble we already put a step towrds that 'ULTIMATE TRUTH'.

As Prophet Muhammad,peace be upon him, says,
it is said that when you take only one step toward Him, He advances ten steps toward you. But the complete truth is that God is always with you.
Also Prophet says, I do not worry about the things that you do not know, but I am cautious in appraising how you apply what you do know.

Let us take our first step towards that Ultimate truth, by being humble to our fellow mankind.

[taijasi]

Thaika,

What a beautiful post!!! Thank you!

This moves me, both because it reminds me of `Pascal's Wager' (you can find it here if you are unfamiliar), but moreover because it is very practical. There is so much discussion at Comparative Religion, that sometimes it is easy to forget that humility, Respect and ACTION ... will do much more to bring us to God than any amount of debate or discussion.

Alaikum Salam,

taijasi

[Eudaimonist]

Originally Posted by Thaika

The major question is : Is there is God?
Atheist and evolutionists say : No.

There are plenty of "evolutionists" who believe in God. Agreement with Evolution does not necessarily require atheism.

Imam Ghazzali give logical reason WHY to believe God.He Says ' If you want me give reason to believe there is God, I tell You believe in God. Because after death nobody knows what will happen. If you find (after death)As atheist say there is no God, You will not be not questioned Why you believe in God?

On the otherhand if you find (after death) there is GOD, You will be in big problem for God will ask you why you have refused to believe me?
So my friend just believe in God!' he says.

Hope this solves the first major barrier.

No, this is just another version of Pascal's Wager, and it is notoriously unconvincing to atheists. If no one knows what will happen after death, no one knows what sort of God or gods one might meet there, and therefore no one knows what such a God or gods might desire of us.

God might appreciate honesty and integrity over spineless pragmatism, which is what you are advocating. God might send people who are true to their convictions to heaven, and people who believe out of fear to hell. Or God might send atheists to heaven and theists to hell -- atheists might be God's chosen people.

I personally value my intellectual and moral integrity over spineless pragmatism. Even if a God might be displeased with me for not having certain beliefs, I would still have kept my integrity.

What does it profit me if I gain all of eternity in heaven, yet lose my soul (my integrity)?

Also, if a God wouldn't value someone who values integrity, why should I value such a God? It might be better to keep one's distance from such a God.


eudaimonia,

Mark

[Thaika]

Dear mark,
your point about of evoultionist is okay.

you quote:
Or God might send atheists to heaven and theists to hell -- atheists might be God's chosen people..

Mark, As here we concerned with one truth and how to grasp is the object. As Omar Khayyam says,

"Hell is a spark from our fruitless pain,
Heaven a breath from our time of joy"

Abu ’l-Hasan Khurqani says, "that Paradise and Hell
are non-existent, but I say that they are nothing to me, because God
created them both, and there is no room for any created object in the place
where I am."

So I leave those two things exactly how Prophet Moses, peace be upon him and family, remove his TWO Slippers (here-Possession & Selfish and hereafter-heaven & hell) before He, peace be upon him and family, spoken to the Almighty Truth in the Purest Valley of Tuwa.


you quote:

What does it profit me if I gain all of eternity in heaven, yet lose my soul (my integrity)?

Mark, the theme is all beliefs are towards the Ultimate truth. That does not mean we have to leave our integrity. Differing beliefs could be understood as Differing views, The differing views ,one truth. The story follows quite lengthy and may need time to grasp it...

Just like a person who is in a room sees the floor a shining light. To realise the source he sees the light in wall is reflected in the floor. Then he sees the mirror in the oppositte side which reflects the moon in the clear sky gives light to the wall. So the moon light reflected in the mirror, then reflected in the wall and then to the floor. But none of them is source of light. Even the moon as all borrowed from the sun.

Even though all are sun light it has diifference in reflection. And this reflection is the different kind of understanding of the sun.

The same example could be re-writed as follows:

ABCD are staying in that room in the upper floor. A comes and see the light in the floor then went away. B comes and see the light in the floor and find it is just reflecting the Wall light. Then C comes studies carefully the floor light and the wall light and realised the mirror is the source for the light. D went another step ahead find the real source is the moon. And finally You come and realised it is Sun the source (with out seeing it in the night)

What would happen if all discuss about light seen?

A will say light belongs to floor B will say to the wall C will say the mirror and D will say it is the moon. You will say it is sun.

Who is correct? You of course! But as they also seen a part or form of real source (Sun)? how you convince ABCD (without rejecting their vision) they have seen ONLY a part of real source?

And the difficulty of you to convince the ABCD is the Difficllty of Prophets to Convince the reality of Ultimate One True God in Infinite countless appearances.

The different of the views of ABCD is the difference of interpretation. 'You' the ultimate truth.

The one knows himself knows the Lord


Finally,

God will be very sad to listen what you said. Because when you see Him in real your postion is that sadness!

If you are a mirror you will understand what it means!

Thanks to Imam Ghazzali for his subject on ' Oneness"