Did Lazerus' soul rise when he died?

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by johnp.

Good morning Bandit.



Not all of it. What I speak about I know, what I am not sure about I say 'I think'.



Your welcome to your opinion of course but you are hasty in judgement. You do not know me from a couple of posts do you?



That's because you do not accept scripture? If you don't believe Lazarus and the richman is an actual event then you will not know what happens after death will you, but God has told you? It only needs believing not working around.



How much further forward has your post taken us?



If I have stepped out of line please explain how? I have not been insulting. I have responded to posts and I have asked questions that are not answered that's all. If a person has no wish to speak to me that is up to them isn't it?



I don't think of such things. I respond to posts and ask questions. What power have I to make you do anything? I was told to go and speak to people who want to speak to me not to those that do not. Whether you respond to me or not is in the Hands of God.

john.

goodmorning john,
i am glad to see you have your hammer with you today.

what you speak about you know & so does everyone else.
it is not a hasty judgment, it is hammer in the morning, hammer in the evening.

how much farther has your post taken us? obviously what i am trying to say you are not getting because you already know what you know.

whether i speak to you or not has nothing to with God, it has to do with my own personal choice then you turn around and say it is in the hands of God.
so which is it?

not only do you not have power to make me do anything, but you also do not have power to make me believe everything that you KNOW, just because you say so.
maybe it is because you dont accept scripture? or there is a reading comprehension problem? or you just drown out what others are trying to say with your persistant hammering.

are you the authority here on the scritpures? because you know or because you think you know?
i don't think i need you to tell me what is literal & what is not literal in the bible and you are not my pastor.

it only needs believing what? what you say as in we have to believe everything you say? because you know?

do you know everything about God? do you know everything about heaven? do you know everything about hell & Lazarus? or do you just know what you know & what everyone else knows could never possibly be right.

Do you KNOW if only Christians go to heaven, John? or do some of these other people with different beliefs get in also?

my hammer has one end for pounding nails & one end for pulling out nails. does your hammer do that?

yes i do think you have been a bit insulting, because what you KNOW you may just not know & your opinion comes across to me, like you know everything & not like it is your opinion. what i think you have done is nailed the casket shut on everything that you KNOW because your hammer never stops swinging long enough to pull the nails out & take another look at what is inside.
but i dont think you know that.

that is quite generous that you feel i am allowed my opinion & thank you. now if you know that, then accept, that people have different opinions without hammering them over the head with your opinion, because you think you can make them give the same answer you give to the questions you present with your hammer.

Peace to you my brother.

[tommy]

Originally Posted by johnp.

Hello tommy.



One God three persons. Each person distinct but inseparable. Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Distinction of the persons is not the argument is it? The argument is whether Jesus is God or not. What did Isaiah say about Jesus that might make us exclaim, "My God!" ?
Read John again and you will find that your explanation falls short: JN 20:28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God.



So you agree, in the same way we honour God the Father we must honour the Son? Just as?
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. (Preeminent.)
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. Col 1:15-16.
Since all things have been created by Him then He cannot be created otherwise that verse should read 'all other things' but as you know every word of God is flawless.
He is before all things and all things were created by him and for him. Since He is before all things then He cannot be created can He? For by him all things were created. All things were created by the Son except Himself? The bible says no such thing does it? all things were created by him and for him is immutable, scripture cannot be broken.



I do not disagree.


I have no knowledge of such a thing, I thought a creation was conception but the Word of God was in the beginning. Not 'was created' in the beginning. John 1:1. I would have thought And the Word was God settled the matter. Does it take wisdom to understand a straight forward statement?


HEB 1:8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. God says that about His Son why do you not believe God?
MAL 3:1 "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty.
He said He would come to His Temple.
Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."



What? You praise Jesus? Do you worship a created thing? ISA 42:8 "I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.



For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. John 5:19 has Jesus saying He has life within Himself to give as He chooses. Now do you honour the Son just as you honour the Father or do you not honour God at all? That is what the verse says. Those who do not honour the Son just as the Father do not honour the Father. Isn't that correct?



This is not a request but a command. Love the Lord your God with all your being is a command. Yet can you love God if Jesus is God and you have rejected Him? Surely if one wishes to honour the Son one must honour Him by loving Him. That is just as we should honour God. Obedience.
This paragraph. Jesus asked that we do two things:
First notice He says, "Our Father...". He is not everyones Father is He? He tells some Jews that they belong to their father the Devil so God is not the Father of mankind but only some. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. John 1:12-13. He is however Sovereign over all men.


And that is instructions on how to approach God as His Children. But that does not mean the Church do not pray to Jesus does it?
1CO 1:2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ--their Lord and ours:



It does, the Father is credited with the rising as Jesus is also. Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." JN 2:19.
Do you believe this? He says nothing about His Father rising Him here does it? "I will..." Jesus says.


Then I'm back to square one ain't I? I thought you said that the one that dies is asleep. Do you believe the dead are conscious? They are if you believe Lukew 16 and Lazarus.

john.

Dear Brother John:

I spent many, many hour this summer discussing this issue and devoting myself as a "soldier" of Jehovah God to defend His name on another forum with Catholics regarding the doctrine of the Trinity you can read here:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=63857

You have not answered my question: Did Jesus raise himself from the dead, or did the power of god assist him?

I blame satan, the evil one from misleading the masses and do believe all souls will be given the opportunity at the resurrection to come into the truth during the resurrection to sanctify the name of Jehovah God as the supreme Grand Creator and glory given to both the Son and the Father.

You can start a new thread on the Trinity if you wish to debate this issue. I am not going to discuss the Trinity any further on this thread, I refuse.

The topic of this thread is where the soul goes after an earthly death. The "new heaven" and "new earth" play a big part in this topic and has been discussed very liitle on this thread. What does the "new heaven" and "new earth" mean to you. It means to me a new system in both heaven and earth that is free from satan influences.

What does the resurrection mean? Where are we resurrected to? Is it a spiritual heaven or a restored earth? Why have the handful of resurrections come back to earth as opposed to being raised to a spiritual heaven?

I'm not going to allow this thread to fall into that same old debate in the forums about the discussion on the Trinity. Please start a new thread rather then drifting into another topic other then the afterlife on my thread. I have spent hours and hours on these forums trying to be a soldier for Jehovah and the Trinity discussion has caused me to be banned on other threads five times for those who disagree and it is not going to happen to me here. I find this forum different than others in that true Christians are here like Bandit that are humble, patient, kind, loving and helpful to many with spiritual quests they find themselves in. Bandit has personally helped me a great deal with earthly struggles I have been it and I will admit I find him to be the kindest person I have had discussions with on Forums and he doesn't hand people their heads very often.

Let's keep this discussion on the afterlife and I an still curious if you feel that Jesus raised himself or God was involved since this is on the topic of afterlife.

Peace to you, your brother in Christ, tommy

[johnp.]

Good afternoon Bandit.

Peace to you my brother.

You sure? I don't believe you as your post is far from peaceful.

Do you KNOW if only Christians go to heaven, John? or do some of these other people with different beliefs get in also?

Whoever calls on the Name of Christ is saved, whoever does not is not. And you? Do you believe that Heaven is open to other faiths? I shall not hold my breath waiting for an answer though as answers seem to be in short supply.

maybe it is because you dont accept scripture?

I have said already that every word of God is flawless. What have I said that I did not use scripture to back up what I said. This is just an unfounded question.

or there is a reading comprehension problem?

If there is I have found you to be of no help in getting me to understand the truth have I?

The scriptures are the only authority I bow to, how about you? Jesus told us to tell people what we have been commanded to tell them. He did not say go into the world and make doubters did He?

my hammer has one end for pounding nails & one end for pulling out nails.

So you have an hammer, cool. I know what I know and if I said I didn't I would be a liar.

yes i do think you have been a bit insulting, because what you KNOW you may just not know & your opinion comes across to me, like you know everything & not like it is your opinion.

Show me where I have been insulting. If speaking the truth is insulting then I shall continue to be so. You will have to show me my errors with scripture. Luke 16 is not an opinion but an actual fact. Jesus said, "LK 16:19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day." Since Jesus said that then this is so.
He says, "In hell, where he was in torment..." Jesus said that. What? It is not my opinion but the words of Christ.

you have done is nailed the casket shut on everything that you KNOW because your hammer never stops swinging long enough to pull the nails out & take another look at what is inside.

Man you are something else. You got me nailed I see.

that is quite generous that you feel i am allowed my opinion & thank you.

Don't mention it old chap.

john.

[tommy]

Originally Posted by johnp.

Good afternoon Bandit.



You sure? I don't believe you as your post is far from peaceful.



Whoever calls on the Name of Christ is saved, whoever does not is not. And you? Do you believe that Heaven is open to other faiths? I shall not hold my breath waiting for an answer though as answers seem to be in short supply.



I have said already that every word of God is flawless. What have I said that I did not use scripture to back up what I said. This is just an unfounded question.



If there is I have found you to be of no help in getting me to understand the truth have I?

The scriptures are the only authority I bow to, how about you? Jesus told us to tell people what we have been commanded to tell them. He did not say go into the world and make doubters did He?



So you have an hammer, cool. I know what I know and if I said I didn't I would be a liar.



Show me where I have been insulting. If speaking the truth is insulting then I shall continue to be so. You will have to show me my errors with scripture. Luke 16 is not an opinion but an actual fact. Jesus said, "LK 16:19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day." Since Jesus said that then this is so.
He says, "In hell, where he was in torment..." Jesus said that. What? It is not my opinion but the words of Christ.



Man you are something else. You got me nailed I see.



Don't mention it old chap.

john.

John, one question: Did Jesus raise himself from the dead, or did the power of God play a role??? Just ONE question, can you tell me please...

[johnp.]

Hello tommy.

I spent many, many hour this summer discussing this issue and devoting myself as a "soldier" of Jehovah God to defend His name on another forum with Catholics regarding the doctrine of the Trinity you can read here:

Thanks. If I find time I will go and have a look. They are wrong to call you a Prot that's for sure.

You have not answered my question: Did Jesus raise himself from the dead, or did the power of god assist him?

I have answered your question with the words of Christ Himself. JN 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." He rose Himself. He is the Power of God. He is God. But how can we discuss this properly without the Trinity coming into the picture?

I blame satan, the evil one from misleading the masses and do believe all souls will be given the opportunity at the resurrection to come into the truth during the resurrection to sanctify the name of Jehovah God as the supreme Grand Creator and glory given to both the Son and the Father.

Nice thought but it is contradicted by scripture. Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment... We have Moses and the prophet's made more certain. 2 Peter 1:19. Since the richman was told that Moses and the prophets were enough we have no excuse as we have it more certain.
Satan is not to blame for men's sins. If he were then men would not be guilty. We are told in Romans 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment...

john.

[johnp.]

Hello tommy.

What does the resurrection mean?

To me it means the raising of the dead at the last day but I know it also means a bringing back from the dead like Lazarus.

Where are we resurrected to?

On The Day of Judgement the dead will rise, some to shame and everlasting torment and the others to a life on a renewed earth.

Is it a spiritual heaven or a restored earth?

We are men. We were not designed to be disembodied spirits and as such we are to spend the rest of eternity in the flesh, either on a new earth or in Hell.

It means to me a new system in both heaven and earth that is free from satan influences.

It's not a new system. God is Sovereign. Heaven and earth have been corrupted and so the Lord will recreate the heavens and the earth.

...the Trinity discussion has caused me to be banned on other threads...

Five times! HaHa! Patience is hard won I suppose. I have been asked to mend my ways twice and threatened once with a ten day ban which sounded very enticing. I'm a good boy now.

john.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by johnp.

You sure? I don't believe you as your post is far from peaceful.



john.

oh, I am very sure- I know what I know & what I say I know, I know!

then dont believe me.
hammer hammer hammer

[tommy]

Originally Posted by johnp.

On The Day of Judgement the dead will rise, some to shame and everlasting torment and the others to a life on a renewed earth.






It's not a new system. God is Sovereign. Heaven and earth have been corrupted and so the Lord will recreate the heavens and the earth.



.

If there is everlasting torment, who is doing the tormenting? God? I find it hard to believe that our true understanding God would find any satisfaction tormenting a soul for ever and ever, especially someone hercreated. This sounds like a mean God, far from what the true God is. Do you believe that if one follow satan's ways then they burn in a fiery Hell with God tormenting them forever. The true God is not an abstract entity that comes to life tormenting a soul in a fiery hellpit forever. He's right behind our shoulder listening to our daily prayers and cares about us and doesn't torment. He is a God of love, peace and understanding.

Is it satan who does the tormenting for one following satan? This wouldn't make sesne either in a fair reward system. Who does the tormenting? Hell is a state of non-existance where the soul has no chance of living with Jesus in everlasting life. Pretty simple...it ceases to exist and returns to dust as cleary put in Genesis Ch. 3. God did not say there that he was going to burn Adam in a fiery hell pit (an old myth) but nothing more than returning him to dust.

What does this mean the lord will recreate a new heaven and new earth? What does the word new mean? I think new means a new system that is free from satan influences in both heaven and earth. Then, who would live on this new earth? Would this be a society of any certain group of people free from satan influences and how did these souls get narrowed down to the ones free of satan influences? How would this new earth relate to the resurrection? I find many of these questions will be revealed to us and are answered in Revelations. Any thoughts from anyone here on this? Peace, tommy

[johnp.]

Hello tommy.

If there is everlasting torment...

LK 16:27 "He answered, `Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

...who is doing the tormenting? God?

Everybody there will be under punishment and will not be able to inflict pain onto another I think. That only leaves God to do the tormenting.

I find it hard to believe that our true understanding God would find any satisfaction tormenting a soul for ever and ever, especially someone her created.

Whether it satisfies Him or not I have no idea but it is the punishment for the crime.

This sounds like a mean God, far from what the true God is.

No. It might be far from what you think He is like but His word tells us what He is really like. ...He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. Rev 19:15.
He does not forgive all His enemies.

Do you believe that if one follow satan's ways then they burn in a fiery Hell with God tormenting them forever.

Yes I do. The soul that sins will die. The soul that does not ask Jesus for forgiveness will die. Do you believe in scripture?

He is a God of love, peace and understanding.

Of course He is. ...He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. Rev 19:15. Love and peace man.

Is is satan who does the tormenting for one following satan?

No man that belong in comedy sketches. Hell was prepared for Satan and the fallen angels as a place of punishment not as an holiday camp.

Hell is a state of non-existance where the soul has no chance of living with Jesus in everlasting life.

Jesus said, "In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side." Luke 16:23.
You are opposing scripture. Do you accept scripture as the final word?

Pretty simple...

Easy peasy.

God did not say there that he was going to burn Adam in a fiery hell pit (an old myth) but nothing more than returning him to dust.

Not so, "Then he will say to those on his left, `Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. MT 25:41.
Hell has been around since their fall.

What does this mean the lord will recreate a new heaven and new earth. What does the word new mean.

This universe along with the heavens will cease to exist and a new universe and heavens will take it's place.

What does the word new mean.

"new." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (1 Dec. 2005).

I think new means a new system that is free from satan influences in both heaven and earth.

That would be adding to scripture. A new heavens and a new earth has been promised and will come to be. There is no system change as God is Sovereign and will always remain Sovereign. Sin will be a thing of the past.

Then, who would live on this new earth?

The Children of God.

Would this be a society of any certain group of people free from satan influences and how did these souls get narrowed down to the ones free of satan influences?

We are free from Satan's influence now. If Christ makes you free you will be free indeed. The question though needs rephrasing for me.

How would this new earth relate to the resurrection?

The resurrected saved will populate it pristine. A wedding present to the Bride of Christ.

How'd I do?

john.

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by tommy

Hi Faithfulservant: I know you have been around here for a long time and are a Faithful Servant. I find this very interesting that Jesus asked John to take care of his mother, Mary.

I have always wondered what happen to Joseph and the many mysteries surrounding Joseph. I think that Joseph may have died an early death and perhaps was married before Mary since Jesus had cousins, and step Brothers and Sisters. I think Mary and Joseph also had additional children (i.e. Jude) after the Virgin Mary gave birth to Jesus as we know that Jesus was the oldest of his brothers and sisters.

Sorry to allow this thread to go a bit off topic, but I wonder what happen to Joseph and why John would have taken on the responsibility of caring for Mary. Perhaps we don't know as it wasn't recorded. Peace to you, tommy

Hi Tommy

I was taught that the bible has a specific purpose.. the NT's purpose was the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Its believed that Joseph died.. remember that he was older than Mary so its entirely possible that he died and because it didnt have a direct effect on the message of the NT it was just not mentioned. That could also be why Lazarus wasnt mentioned afterwards.

There is great mystery to the Word of God.. and Im sure that He will delight in our questions when we meet Him. Its wonderful that we can be curious about the whole story of these people that knew our Savior and its wonderful that Christ still remains the center of the spotlight in our studies.

FS

[tommy]

Hi Faithful:

You are so right and I agree the significance of the NT is Jesus' ministery and details not significant do no matter. It's just the faith in Christ. I'm not sure why I think about those other details other then the curious part of human nature.

Hi John:

You did a good job if we don't realize that Revelation is symbolism. Rev. 1...And he sent forth his angel and presented it in "signs" through him to his slave John.

Signs = symbolism and therefore the fire actually means annihilation. Consider Matthew 25:46 "And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, the the righteous ones into everlasting life".

Therefore the fiery hellpit which is sysbolism actually means the opposite of everlasting life according to Matthew and is everlasting cutting-off not an actual fire burning upon this person, they just can't be with Christ. Here's another: Psalms 6:5 "For in death there is no mention of you, in She-ol who will laud you". Therefore, in death there is no mention means non-existant.

Eccleisiastes 9:10 says, "All that your hands find to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge, nor wisdom in She-ol, the place to which you are going".

The lake of death means the second death in a symolic way. Rev. 20-14 says "And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire". Therefore, death would be the opposite of everlasting life, meaning everlasting death, no chance of getting back. Therefore, satan's fiery torment means everlasting death.

In fact Babylon's annihilation is called a fiery torment Rev. 18:8-10.

In we read Luke 16:22-24 we learn that fire is no more literal than Adraham's bosom.

Therefore, hell is a place of inactivity and not a literal place of fiery torment. Matthew says in my earlier quote real plaingly that cutting-off in death sybolized fire.

We must realize when reading Revelation that much symbolism is use. I hope this helps explain. Have a great day, tommy

[johnp.]

Hello tommy.

You did a good job if we don't realize that Revelation is symbolism.

Cool! I made a mistake in not taking into account Revelation is symbolism?

Signs = symbolism and therefore the fire actually means annihilation.

What bible have you? Neither the KJV or NIV have '...And he sent forth his angel and presented it in "signs" through him to his slave John.'

If you mean Rev 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John... NIV.

It says He made it known in the NIV and that is supported by the KJV with 'and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John' and signified means 2 a : to show or make known especially by a conventional token (as word, signal , gesture)

Therefore, death would be the opposite of everlasting life, meaning everlasting death...

Yes and everlasting death is everlasting separation from God. You can see that death is separation from God in the illustration He gave us in the Garden. ..."You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." Gen 2:16.
Gen 3:9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"
He did not say that 930 years after Adams eats the fruit but "when you eat of it you will surely die." And then the "Where are you?"

Your understanding of death is wrong tommy.

Matthew 25:46 "And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off...
Can you explain to me how 'cutting off' becomes annihilation please?

MT 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." NIV.

MT 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. KJV.

Both translations translate the cutting off as eternal punishment what gives your translation authority?
If cutting off means annihilation why wasn't the word 'annihilation' used? If that is the proper translation, 'annihilation', then it should read 'annihilation' because cutting off never means 'annihilation' does it? Is annihilation always meant in the OT when 'cutting off' is mentioned?

john.

[tommy]

Hey John:

Sorry so long to respond here, hard to explain... I hope you understand. One question though, if humans are tourmented in a fiery hell, how does their soul burn forever if they are no longer human???

[johnp.]

Hello tommy.

No problem nor need to explain.

...how does their soul burn forever if they are no longer human???

First of all men will be human. Secondly, as to the 'how' I haven't a clue but the scripture says that those already dead do feel pain. ...to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. 2 Peter 2:9. (Luke 16:19-31)

All men that have died before Jesus returns will be resurrected and each assigned to their final destination publicly. Men will not be disembodied spirits in Hell as men will not be disembodied spirits in Heaven, Heaven is being relocated to Earth, the natural home for us.


How's that?

john.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by tommy

Hey John:

Sorry so long to respond here, hard to explain... I hope you understand. One question though, if humans are tourmented in a fiery hell, how does their soul burn forever if they are no longer human???

Welcome back Tommy

v/r

Q