Did Lazerus' soul rise when he died?

[johnp.]

Jesus did not raise himself, but rather this miracle came from God, similar to how Elijah raised the little girl who died about 400 BC and Elisha.

If you hold to the authority of scripture tommy then you must believe Jesus raised Himself, Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." John 2:19.

He says He will raise Himself.

...his Father, who Jesus said is "greater" than him John 14:28...

Are you are making a mistake in believing greater means better? Greater does not mean better but God the Father was in Heaven and God the Son was on earth and limited in His ability as a Man. He was never inferior. For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form... Col 2:9. HEB 1:8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

And Samuel being called back after he had died?
And `I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
Need answers please.

There is no caste system in Christianity... (Quahom1)

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

We are all Priests and all have priestly duties to perform.

john.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by tommy

Thanks again for your thoughts. I do believe that we experience a "recreation" of one's earthly self at the peak of our being when our bodies were at their most perfect state. As opposed to a recarnation into another body a recreation would restore our own body, without the imperfections, as God originally intended for us. That would mean sickness, deformation, and old age would be gone. Kind of like how a beautiful Redwood tree that was designed to grow forever would be.

yes. this exactly how i picture it also. since there will be no more age or aging, i picture us all at the most perfect state of how we knew others in our mortal life and that is really neat to me . (with no wrinkles)

As I started forming my response, you answered it in yours. The spirit soul needs no body to rest in. Those who died in planes on 9/11 for example may appear walking out of the ocean for example. The one big mystery I do not know if will we have a memory. I am not sure. I have heard we will live with our loved ones. But then what happens if one of our loved ones don't come into the truth? Can we be hurt in this new perfect system (one with no Satan influences that currectly nag us, thanks Adam ). Would it make sense that our memory dies with the fleshly brain? Perhaps not, here's why. Lazarus came back with his memory, pretty amazing forshadowing of things to come. Elijah raised the little girl through God, she was restored too and had her memory.

i think we will remember also, but only the good things because there will be no more death or sickness or sorrow & i think we will have perfect understanding of our purpose. i dont know how, but i still believe it.
what i like the most is God will be our eternal rest & we will be Gods eternal rest and that means resting forever in peace & love that no man or satan can ever take from us!
& that is forever and forever. when i think of forever and forever, i find rest in that.

Originally Posted by tommy

Where does the spirit go? I believe in what we read in the Bible about Sheol, the resting place of the soul awaiting the resurrection. I like what you put up this morning about the dead are sleeping peacefully in rest which is comforting to those who have gone before us. I don't believe the Grand Creator torments souls in a fiery hell either.

Both the righteousness and the unrighteous will be resurrected. The unrighteous will have the ability in changing their ways and learning the two main issues that satan brought us through Adam. That God is the soviergn Almighty Creator who's name shall be sanctified and that man will be loyal to Him, even if there is nothing to gain other then praising our grand creator. This is what think about salvation and that God's Son Jesus is the only way we can get to the Father (not the Saints or the pope). Peace, tommy

i think one day the spirit will be free to go anywhere without the weight we feel now. while those who sleep in Christ are alive in Christ, those who are dead in Christ are not sleeping in Christ so how could there be rest for them? i think both the righteous & unrighteous are both resurrected also but what will be happening there is a judgment while the righteous have already been judged in this life. i dont think God will allow the unrighteous to torment the righteous any more & while i dont see a literal fire like old time preachers say, i see more of destruction as in ZAP & be gone forever & forever, (second death) the same way those who love God & keep His commandments will live forever & forever with the Creator & with Jesus and all the saints of the ages. that is one promise i dont want to miss out on.

since i dont know for sure how all that transpires i am trying to keep my ducks in a row on this side so when the time comes, i can fly with all the other ducks in eternal rest & Jesus is the head (leader) duck.
Quack Quack...reminds me of the mighty ducks in hockey & how they went from nothing to something big, because they had a coach who cared & never gave up.

so where does the spirit go? i think it simply flies back to God who gave it in the beginning.

Peace & love in Christ.

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7.

[tommy]

Originally Posted by johnp.

If you hold to the authority of scripture tommy then you must believe Jesus raised Himself, Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." John 2:19.

He says He will raise Himself.



Are you are making a mistake in believing greater means better? Greater does not mean better but God the Father was in Heaven and God the Son was on earth and limited in His ability as a Man. He was never inferior. For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form... Col 2:9. HEB 1:8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

And Samuel being called back after he had died?
And `I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
Need answers please.



1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

We are all Priests and all have priestly duties to perform.

john.

Hi John:

I didn't say that God is better than Jesus, they are in unity together. There is the Father, the Almighty One and Jesus Christ, the "Son" of God. The reason Jesus says his Father is "greater" (not better) is because he is the Grand Creator of everything, the Alpha and the Omega.

God's only begotten's Son is Jesus. He is called our co-creator because Jehovah God created his Son as the "first born" of all creation. Jesus is from Heaven and Godlike. But remember they are seperate and distinct, something most won't take arguement with".

Even though Jesus performed all of his miracles including raising up his own Temple from death, he was empowered by God his "Father" to do so. If he didn't need this blessing from God them his Baptism at the age of 29 would not serve a purpose. Wasn't God's voice who appear spoken from the skies saying "This is my Son, with him I am pleased"?

As far as the God of the dead but the living goes, we are living. We breathe. We hear of the New Heaven and New Earth. Once resurrected we come from the dead to the living, but have to pay the price first of death. We inherited sin and only through death do we pay that price. When we return from the resurrection we will be in the living again which will be the "new earth" (no satan here).

The New Heaven (no satan there is why it is new) will be Jesus' one goverment and yes the 144,000 will take rulership. We know that many of the 144,000 are early Christians mostly. I cannot remember the scripture but we are given 11 tribes of 12,000 with their family names and one tribe of 24,000 (i.e. Levy ???). Thats who will rule with Jesus and also known as Heaven.

Daniel 2:44 "And in the days of those kings the God of Heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin and the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms and it itself will stand to times indefinite".

Matthew 6:10 "Let your kingdom come, let your will take place as in heaven, also upon earth". Notice that it says here your kingdom come and will take place in heaven and also upon the earth (New Heaven and New Earth). The ruling class 144,000 in heaven and the rest of those who repented on earth.

Revelation 21:3 "...Look, the tent of God is with mankind.And he will reside with them and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them". Notice how this says the tent (home) of God is with mankind and it does not say mankind is with God. It also saysGod will reside with them (here on Earth in my opinion) as opossed to mankind will reside with God in heaven. Peace, tommy

[johnp.]

Hello tommy.

Even though Jesus performed all of his miracles including raising up his own Temple from death...

But I thought you were saying that a person who is dead is asleep, in a non-state. If that is so then how does one do anything when one is not?

Either Jesus was conscious after He died on the cross or He wasn't. I was under the impression that you were saying that death meant extinction. A state of non-being. My question was "How did Jesus rise Himself if death is a cessation of consciousness?" Now I think you are saying that Jesus was conscious after death. Put me right please. Thanks.

john.

[tommy]

Originally Posted by johnp.

Hello tommy.



But I thought you were saying that a person who is dead is asleep, in a non-state. If that is so then how does one do anything when one is not?

Either Jesus was conscious after He died on the cross or He wasn't. I was under the impression that you were saying that death meant extinction. A state of non-being. My question was "How did Jesus rise Himself if death is a cessation of consciousness?" Now I think you are saying that Jesus was conscious after death. Put me right please. Thanks.

john.

Hi John:

Non-state of existance would be the final death, like what Adam had. I am not saying that a soul in Sheol awaiting the resurrection is non-existant. They are simply resting at peace for the resurrection to be living.

The final death would be a soul like Adam who would he in hell or hades. To clarify Adam would be in a state of nothing, dust, non-existant, no chance of returning, in Sheol a soul awaits the resurrection in "sleep", like Lazarus was in my opinion Jesus was in Sheol for three days and by God's power he was raised. The same as Jesus performed miracles through the power he received from God when be was baptised. I hope this clears some confusion, but if not I'll check back a bit later if my "opinion" might not make sense. tommy

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by tommy

Hi Quahom (Do you mind if I call you Joshua?)

Here's what I researched about after Lazurus came back. John 12: 1-2 "Accordingly Jesus, six days before the passover, arrived at Bethany where Lazuras was whom Jesus raised from the dead". "Therefore they spread an evening meal for him there, and Martha was ministering, but Lazarus was one of those reclining at the table with him".

It says Lazarus was "reclining" with Jesus. This actually sounds like he's kicking back and doesn't sound like he was mad at Jesus for bringing him back or angry. Remember Lazarus was a beggar and in these late verses he's kicking back reclining with Jesus over a dinner. Where does the angry stuff come from? I picture him with a BIG smile on his face looking at his loved ones and the smell of death has gone from him.

Hello Tommy,

I must point out that the two Lazarus' are not the same man. True one was a beggar (in the parable of he and the rich man), but the other was the brother of Martha and Mary of Bethania (Bethany), the three of which were close friends with Jesus.

The first Lazarus is only spoken of by Jesus in Luke 16: 19-31, and is believed to be a parable that teaches the reward for Lazarus was not due to his poverty in life, but rather his virtuous acceptance of poverty, wherein the rich man was not condemned because he was wealthy, but rather because of his vicious neglect of the opportunities given him by his wealth.

The second Lazarus is also called St. Lazarus of Bethania (Bethany), and allegedly went on to become a Minister for Christ and was persecuted and beheaded under Emperor Dominitian's reign (after Nero's death), in the latter half of the first century. However there is opinion based on the description of the "disciple whom Jesus loved", that Lazarus never died a second time, as well as speculation that the actual author of the Gospel of John is in fact Lazarus. It is also an opinion that Lazarus was the first disciple to believe in the resurrection of Jesus. For he is the one who raced to the tomb but stopped short of entering it when he saw the wrapped linen. Wherein Peter, ran into the tomb and still didn't believe.

My comment about the anger part is speculation based on current stories of near death experiences. In many cases the one who is brought back from death, are angry that they were brought back, mostly because they were pulled or sent back from an indescribably beautiful place.

my thoughts.

v/r

Q (Josh) anything but late for supper

[tommy]

Hi Q (Josh)

Thanks for the clarity of the 2nd Lazarus from Luke 16:20. It makes it a bit confusing when we get more than one Lazarus, Mary and Martha, who is who?

I think Martha would have been pretty happy to see her brother. Remember she was sort of upset that Jesus wasn't there and felt if he was then her brother would not have died. I still picture this group of happy people with big harty laughs when Lazarus came walking out still dressed in his death wrappings.

John 11 outlines the events of Lazarus. It does say in verse 12 "I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep". Notice it doesn't say anything about Lazarus coming back from anywhere. 14 Jesus says "...Lazarus has died". 23 Jesus says to Martha "...your brother will rise" (seems like this is a positive thing happening here to Lazarus and Martha). 25 "...He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life". This life was on Earth and not in a spiritual sense. Jesus performed many signs. Is this a sign that the resurrection is to an earthly life? What is the resurrection? Why would our resurrection be any different than the handful that we read about in the Bible that was resurrected to earth?

Just my thoughts. tommy

[Faithfulservant]

Hi Q

For the sake of discussion I would like to address your response to Tommy on the two Lazarus's in the NT.

These are my thoughts on why the two could be the same.. its just my opinion which is formed on reasoning through the word and its something I've pondered often.

Lazarus of the parable was a beggar. Lazarus this brother of Martha and Mary was only mentioned when the two sisters approached Jesus about their brother being sick.

It is possible for a beggar to have 2 sisters. It is possible that Jesus loved Lazarus.. yes? Jesus loved the lowly in life.. We cannot just assume that the two could be different just because the one in the parable was met on hard times.

We also know that the Lazarus of the parable.. .was just that.. in a parable which is a story that can hold very very deep messages. It could be possible that Lazarus in the parable was a beggar and the Lazarus (brother to Martha and Mary) had similarities because the word beggar has multiple meanings.

Beggar = ptwcovß

1. reduced to beggary, begging, asking alms
2. destitute of wealth, influence, position, honour
   1. lowly, afflicted, destitute of the Christian virtues and eternal riches
   2. helpless, powerless to accomplish an end
   3. poor, needy
3. lacking in anything
   
   1. as respects their spirit
      1. destitute of wealth of learning and intellectual culture which the schools afford (men of this class most readily give themselves up to Christ's teaching and proved them selves fitted to lay hold of the heavenly treasure)

His name alone causes me to think.. Its certainly not a common name and its interesting to me that Jesus would create a parable using the exact name of someone whom He knew and performed such a massive scale miracle on whose name would be in history linked to such a miracle of that magnitude..



Its also interesting to me that the brother Lazarus died whom Jesus loved.. and the parable was of a dead man who loved Jesus to be in Abrahams bosom. I think there more similarities then differences.. That is why I personally believe they are the same person.

Im curious to if you ever thought of it in this context before? I respect anything you might add to this after you think about it after Ive laid my reasoning before you.

Its one of the many things I want to ask Jesus when I meet Him face to face. I also do not know if this is the meat that I was fed with in my journey through the word.. it feels like it though.

FS

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Hi Q



Beggar = ptwcovß

1. reduced to beggary, begging, asking alms
2. destitute of wealth, influence, position, honour
   1. lowly, afflicted, destitute of the Christian virtues and eternal riches
   2. helpless, powerless to accomplish an end
   3. poor, needy
3. lacking in anything
   
   1. as respects their spirit
      1. destitute of wealth of learning and intellectual culture which the schools afford (men of this class most readily give themselves up to Christ's teaching and proved them selves fitted to lay hold of the heavenly treasure)

His name alone causes me to think.. Its certainly not a common name and its interesting to me that Jesus would create a parable using the exact name of someone whom He knew and performed such a massive scale miracle on whose name would be in history linked to such a miracle of that magnitude..




Its also interesting to me that the brother Lazarus died whom Jesus loved.. and the parable was of a dead man who loved Jesus to be in Abrahams bosom. I think there more similarities then differences.. That is why I personally believe they are the same person.

Its one of the many things I want to ask Jesus when I meet Him face to face. I also do not know if this is the meat that I was fed with in my journey through the word.. it feels like it though.

FS

i have always seen it as the same Lazarus also, Faithful.
to me, the ironic part about the parable & the actual rasing of Lazarus is Jesus is declaring in the parable that people still will not believe even if Lazarus came back & went to tell the rich mans family, not to come to hell. & sure enough, many still did not believe even after he was raised from the dead & they wanted to kill both Jesus Lazarus for the evidence.

i also think it was the same Lazaus because it is the only parable that Jesus used real names, which leads me to believe, they knew who Abraham was & they all knew who Lazarus was. so what purpose would it serve to use one person that everyone knew & not use the other person (Laz) which everyone knew.?
I see a connection & i am pretty sure that in the order of events, the parable was told prior to the resurrection of Lazarus. In John, it was right after the rasing of Lazarus that Jesus makes his final entrance into Jeruselum & it goes into the Last Supper, where jesus spends his time with the disciples & not the crowds.
but what i see is a direct parallel on the unbelief issue of men & the lack of persuasion in both the parable & the actual rasing, of Lazarus.
hope that makes some kind of sense.

& i would like to hear as well, why some would think it is not the same Lazarus.

[johnp.]

Hello Everyone.

First, the story of the richman and Lazarus is not a parable but the record of an actual historical event.

I have never made any connection between Laz and Laz before. People with the same name often appear in scripture.
For this to work Luke 16:19-31 must have been told after John 11:1-12:18..

I see a connection & i am pretty sure that in the order of events, the parable was told prior to the resurrection of Lazarus.

In the four days it took for Jesus to arrive at the tomb of Lazarus but not before.


Hello tommy.

Non-state of existance would be the final death, like what Adam had.

Right! Soul sleep. Cool. The question remains. In this condition how was Jesus able to raise Himself?

john.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by johnp.

Hello Everyone.

First, the story of the richman and Lazarus is not a parable but the record of an actual historical event.

I have never made any connection between Laz and Laz before. People with the same name often appear in scripture.
For this to work Luke 16:19-31 must have been told after John 11:1-12:18..



In the four days it took for Jesus to arrive at the tomb of Lazarus but not before.

Hi John

i see it as a parable about something literal because he used real literal people, but i think the parable pertains to everyone & that we dont want to be seperated from the love of God, not just Abraham, Laz & the rich man... then again I take most of the bible literal.

For this to work Luke 16:19-31 must have been told after John 11:1-12:18..

that is pretty much what i am saying but i dont see where it is necessary that it had to be only within that 4 day period, but not saying that is not a possibility. it could have been prior to the death of Lazarus & still be the same Laz. after rasing Lazarus, Jesus was just about finished with his ministry & ready to lay down his own life for us, which leads me to believe the parable came before the actual raising of Laz.

who do you think the rich man is? & who do you think the father is that the rich man is talking to?

[tommy]

Originally Posted by johnp.

Hello tommy.



Right! Soul sleep. Cool. The question remains. In this condition how was Jesus able to raise Himself?

john.

Sorry John it took a bit to respond here, work took over.

This is a way easy answer, God, Jehovah God the distinct seperate Father of the Son of God, Jesus Christ created the power for Christ to be resurrected. So in other words Christ had the power, like all the miracles he performed, to perform the miracle of his resurrection.

God created the universe and empowered His son to be the "co-creator" of us. But all the power of creation belongs to the Father and that is why Jesus said in John that his father is "greater" than him, not "better" like we discussedd earlier. God created his only "begotton" son as the "first born" of all creation. Jesus has been assigned the task of ruling Heaven, by his Father, who empowered Jesus' resurrection. I hope might this helps clarify my "opinion" of what I think are truths based upon The Bible. Peace, tommy

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by johnp.

Hello Everyone.

The question remains. In this condition how was Jesus able to raise Himself?

john.

i am just curious John, are you saying that Jesus could raise himself without the the power of the Father? i ask because you are hammering it like building a wood deck.

in another place we are told God raised up Jesus from the dead.
Jesus not only said the father is greater, he also mentioned that he could do nothing of himself...(paraphrased)
from what i can see, you can't separate the father & the son in eternity & seeing that God gave Jesus all authority & power, i dont see where it was difficult for Jesus to raise himself, no more difficult than when he raised up Lazarus.

[Quahom1]

The parable of Lazarus and the rising of the other Lazarus...are the two the same person? Jesus spoke the parable of Lazarus, before the death of the other Lazarus. Remember the raising of Lazarus from the dead was the crosspoint wherein the decided finally to have Jesus killed. Why? Because in seeing Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead, caused many Jews to believe, and they said as much as their reasoning for killing Him.

Second, the NT continuously refers to the "disciple whom Jesus loved" and the "other disciple whom Jesus loved" after first identifying Lazarus as "the disciple whom Jesus loved". Peter even turned to Jesus at one point during their supper and asked Him "What of your other disciple..." Jesus told Peter the other disciple would not see death, and if Jesus had him tarry on at his will, what was it to Peter?

Third, there were two whom Mary ran up to and declared that Jesus was no longer in the tomb. Peter was one, and the other was described as the disciple (other) whom Jesus loved. Both ran to the tomb but the other arrived before Peter, yet he stopped at the entrance when he saw the bundled linen on the ground...and he believed right then that Jesus rose from the dead. Peter on the other hand ran into the tomb and searched but did not yet believe.

Why would the other disciple believe simply at seeing the bundled burial wrap? Because he once wore the same burial wrap and he too was loosed from those wrappings, not too long before...

Peter on the other hand had never tasted death, hence the power of the symbolism would be lost on him.

Finally, the Mary who ran to Peter and the other disciple (whom Jesus loved), was Lazarus' sister.

We pretty much understand the Gospel of John was not written by John, but by another. One with first hand knowledge and a sense of intimacy with Jesus. Lazarus' name is never mentioned again, however the "other disciple whom Jesus loved" is mentioned over and over again, by the author of John.

A conclusion is logically, that Lazarus is the author of the Gospel of John.

Let is consider what happened to Lazarus after being raised from the dead.

a. He thanked Jesus and went on his merry way

b. He continued on in the trade of his career (what ever that was)

c. He was profoundly affected and changed by the miraculous events taking place in his life, because of Jesus.

I doubt a man who had been raised from the dead, and because of this became an instant celebrity, plus was an instrument in getting Jews to believe in Jesus, hence setting the trigger for Jesus' own death, would remain a beggar, if he ever was one.

In any event it would be impossible for Lazarus to be the beggar in the parable told by Jesus, since he wasn't dead when the parable was told.

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

[johnp.]

Hello tommy.

Sorry John it took a bit to respond here, work took over.

There's no rush man.

So in other words Christ had the power, like all the miracles he performed, to perform the miracle of his resurrection.

While He was asleep? He performed the miracle of waking up when He was asleep you say?

Jesus not only said the father is greater, he also mentioned that he could do nothing of himself...(paraphrased)

John 5:19 ...whatever the Father does the Son also does.
Why?
that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. John 5:23.

Just as you honour God the Father so one should honour Christ. Why? For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form... Col 2:9. He is God.

So I'm still stuck. You say that Adam is annihilated, he doesn't exist anymore but those lovers of God are asleep in the grave. How can a sleeper do anything?


john.