Did Lazerus' soul rise when he died?

[tommy]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Unfortunately what you imply is that there is a select few that get to be immediately with the Lord. That is unacceptable by human standards. See man was promised to be with the Lord, if we accepted the Lord. There was no (in time). It was now, and here after. To attempt to tell man that this is a mistake, that only a few will be with the Lord now, and the rest must wait in death, is Ludicrous.

That is a violation of the very tennants of Christianity.

What you propose as truth, is hard to take. In fact it is unacceptable. Whether or not it is true is irrelevant. I will not live my life only knowing that I will lie in state in a grave, until such time as the Lord decides I will rise.

I didn't become a Christian based on a lottery. I was promised new life. Hence I move based on that new life promise. There is no lottery Tommy. I'm sorry if you think so.

1914 may have been the day the world stood still, but it was not the day the world ended. It is the day World War One began. And it is not the beginning of the end.

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

Hello Q.

These thoughts I put up are my opinions and naturally I put them up for a good debate and arguement on the scriptures. Thanks for putting up the three quotes from Pauls letters they are helpful to me in researching how opinions have been formed on the afterlife.

I think the prospect of the afterlife is a wonderful hope. Whether we have to wait ten, 100 or 1,000 years to be with Christ it will be a blink in time. It is my opinion that time is insignificant to God. This wait is a result of God's soveriegnty be questioned by the serpent in the Garden of Eden. I do believe God's original intention for the earth will be accomplished in due time. Those exercising faith in Jesus and showing love for God with all their heart, mind and soul will be there. We have Adam and Eve to thank for the wait, but I do believe we won't even notive the wait because sleep is unaware of time. Patience may be something worth waiting for. Peace, tommy

[tommy]

John: You have some good thoughts here. I have a few thoughts I want to post a bit later on your questions. Thanks for being patient, tommy

[tommy]

Originally Posted by johnp.

David knew he would live in the house of the Lord forever did he not?

I believe David will live in the house of the lord forever. As part of the heavenly class or at the resurrection? All we can do is quote from what we learn in Bible, like Acts 29 "...concerning the family head of David, that he both deceased and was burried and his tomb is among us to this day". Acts 34 "Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, "God said to my lord" sit at my right hand 35. until I place your enemies as a stool at your feet". It says here that Dadid did not ascend to the Heavens does it not and what is the point in time when God will place His enemies as a stool for his feet"?

Originally Posted by johnp.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life and I shall live in the house of the Lord forever. He was not looking forward to a time when he would live there but live there forever as he wrote.
Samuel, 1 Sam 28:15, was brought back from the dead and this would contradict Ecclesiastes if Ecclesiastes was to be taken aface value: For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing...
If you wish to take this statement at face value then you must believe that there is no resurrection because the rest of the verse says: they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.
Which was a Sadducee belief.
For us to be away from the Lord would be a failure on His part because He says love never fails. If a separation between us ever happened that would be a failure of love. It would contradict `I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

As I stated earlier in this thread Jesus told the apostles that Lazarus was "dead". My last quote said David had was "deceased". This is not to be confused with the state of Hades, which was the state of returning to dust like Adam when he ceased to exist (that is not the death I am referring too). Were talking about true followers of Jesus and faithful servants of God and death would not be forever, they were in Sheol like both Lazerus and even Jesus was for three days before rising. We do learn of the first resurrection when the righteous return and as far as who is the annointed class an individual does not know but has only Scripture to learn from. He is the God of the living and that is why I believe that other than Jesus' ruling heavenly government we return to the living right here on earth, more then a spiritual being. We have to pay first for Adams sins since Jesus gave his blood to save us for nothing he owed, but something we did not have the ability to pay back and now we do and that is what we all have to pay first, "death" something we all experience.

Originally Posted by johnp.

But only if you ignore the point made by Paul that he would be at home with the Lord when away from the body. Can a non-existence exist at home? Where Jesus is there is home.

Just like Lazerus was sleeping he was eventually with Jesus. Non-existence does not equal sleeping. Non-existance is the state Adam was in who had no chance to get back. If we repent we can get back because Jesus died for us. I am not saying Jesus' ruling class (to eventually elimate Satan on earth) is not with Jesus in a heavenly spiritual body, they probably are right now and ruling with Jesus as King. Do remember that many first century Christians were part of the annointed class that would be part of Jesus' ruling class of 144,000, which is an actualy number.

Originally Posted by johnp.

"No. Paul believed that man is a soul, not that he has a soul." Paul never believed any such thing did he?



How can you say it was a bible truth that brought comfort and it was not a bible truth?



The resurrection involves the faithful and the ungodly,

Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

As for the OT saints, they were Christians just as us but looking towards the cross whereas we look back to it. JOB 19:25 I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.

JN 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

john.

I do believe this. Jesus said to the apostles when Lazerus died and thought Jesus meant he was sleeping when Jesus said he was going to awaken Lazerus that Lazerus "had died". This death was not permanent and Jesus awoke him from the sleep. I don't recall reading anything that Lazerus had gone anywhere, but was just sleeping, thats all, a state of nothing until Jesus awoke him to be with him and we don't learn from Lazerus' death anything about rising to a spiritual reahlm, just returning to earth. I think the human fear is that many years could go on before the resurrection and I don't find that a fear, it will be a quick flash in time to someone in Sheol sleeping. Peace, tommy

[johnp.]

Were talking about true followers of Jesus and faithful servants of God and death would not be forever, they were in Sheol like both Lazerus and even Jesus was for three days before rising.

If this is true tommy then how did Jesus rise Himself from the dead?

Non-existance is the state Adam was in who had no chance to get back.

Adam and Eve had a blood sacrifice for them how do you say they are unforgiven?
GE 3:21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.

john.

[tommy]

Originally Posted by johnp.

If this is true tommy then how did Jesus rise Himself from the dead?



Adam and Eve had a blood sacrifice for them how do you say they are unforgiven?
GE 3:21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.

john.

Hey John:

Remember that Jesus did not have the power to perform miracles until be was baptised around age 29. The power to do these miracles came from God who is a seperate and distinct entity from Jesus, his Father, who Jesus said is "greater" than him John 14:28"...because the Father is greater than I am". Jesus did not raise himself, but rather this miracle came from God, similar to how Elijah raised the little girl who died about 400 BC and Elisha. (1Ki 17:17-24; 2Ki 4:32-37; 13:20, 21).

Geneiss 3:19 tells us that God was very hurt when Adam allowed His soveriegnty to become in question to his evil foe, satan the devil, the fallen angel. Jehovah God said to Adam, By the sweat of your face will you earn your food, until you return to the ground, as you were taken from it. For dust you are and to dust you shall return".

Here we learn Adams eternal fate. He clearly returned to dust with no ability of everlasting life. Peace, tommy

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by tommy

I do believe this. Jesus said to the apostles when Lazerus died and thought Jesus meant he was sleeping when Jesus said he was going to awaken Lazerus that Lazerus "had died". This death was not permanent and Jesus awoke him from the sleep. I don't recall reading anything that Lazerus had gone anywhere, but was just sleeping, thats all, a state of nothing until Jesus awoke him to be with him and we don't learn from Lazerus' death anything about rising to a spiritual reahlm, just returning to earth. I think the human fear is that many years could go on before the resurrection and I don't find that a fear, it will be a quick flash in time to someone in Sheol sleeping. Peace, tommy

i think when it talks about sleeping, it just means rest & peace from the flesh since the spirit does not die.
i think the point jesus was trying to make here is that we do not die & the spirit goes on & was one of his final efforts to get them to believe.

[tommy]

Originally Posted by Bandit

i think when it talks about sleeping, it just means rest & peace from the flesh since the spirit does not die.
i think the point jesus was trying to make here is that we do not die & the spirit goes on & was one of his final efforts to get them to believe.

Hi Bandit: Great point, I do agree that sleep would be rest and peace. My point in this thread is that in my opinion the soul doesn't rise somewhere else to a spiritual being looking down upon us here, but is in the state of sleep and rest as you have state until the resurrection. It's always good to here from you.

Were getting our first snow up here in Reno today. I wish I had a real fireplace Take care, your brother, tommy

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by tommy

Hi Bandit: Great point, I do agree that sleep would be rest and peace. My point in this thread is that in my opinion the soul doesn't rise somewhere else to a spiritual being looking down upon us here, but is in the state of sleep and rest as you have state until the resurrection. It's always good to here from you.

Were getting our first snow up here in Reno today. I wish I had a real fireplace Take care, your brother, tommy

I have seen Reno buried in snow & i am talking 20 foot mounds of snow on both sides of freeway 80.

but what purpose would the spirit serve to stay with the dead body? i suppose it could have still been right with Lazarus, there seeing that Jesus knew in advance he was going to raise Lazarus. i dont think Lazarus knew anything while he was sleeping. i think there is one place there where Martha was not aware of what Jesus was going to do, because she mentioned Lazarus being resurrected at the last resurrection.

unless you are saying that all spirits stay with the body as they decompose until they are resurrected?
i guess i just dont see where it really matters where the spirit goes after the body dies. now, nothing can keep a spirit buried in dirt or inside of a tomb unless the power of God says so, otherwise i would think the spirit goes back to God somewhere in spirit world & is in some kind of sleep until the last resurrection. unless some people are resurrected immediatley into a spiritual body. but i would have to agree for the most part, the spirit of a man does not go floating around, looking down at other people, though we often think of it that way when we think of friends & family. BUT- not saying that is not a possiblity for some because i dont really know for sure.
OTH, Lazarus was resurrected back into a mortal body & not an immortal body...& i actually view that as a 'type' of reincarnation & see a parallel there with the resurrection of Jesus, except i think Jesus was given (changed) into immortalitiy & he does look down upon us & can be everywhere at all times.

interesting that is for sure.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by tommy

Hi Bandit: Great point, I do agree that sleep would be rest and peace. My point in this thread is that in my opinion the soul doesn't rise somewhere else to a spiritual being looking down upon us here, but is in the state of sleep and rest as you have state until the resurrection. It's always good to here from you.

Were getting our first snow up here in Reno today. I wish I had a real fireplace Take care, your brother, tommy

Naw, wouldn't work, since some of us never sleep in peace. Some of us dream too much, and some of us don't sleep for eight hours a night (we don't need it). Plus, I'm not into "resting" with a stinking body that serves no further purpose. No, the spirit does not stay with the decomposing body, nor in the "grave" of the mortal shell. If that were the case, 'Davy Jones' has a lot of company down in the deep blue sea.

To state that Paul is more perfect, or higher than any man, smacks of heiarchy. And Christs apalled such thought. To say Paul is one of the 144,000 and we are not is frankly, grounds for rebellion against a God that promised all who turned to Him, being with the Lord (and not in 1000 years).

There is no caste system in Christianity...If there is, then I want no damn part of it. I can't make myself any clearer.

v/r

Q

[wil]

No, the spirit does not stay with the decomposing body, nor in the "grave" of the mortal shell.

That doesn't speak to the question of how the soul decided to jump back up when Jesus called him.... except if 'that' was Jesus's second coming for Lazurus...

Interstingly enough this weekend I was reading Ramtha's White Book, he is discussed his dispair at all the souls laying in graves sleeping, and all the other souls attempting to wake them so they can continue in life everlasting...few get up, most continue to wait...ignoring those attempting to wake them for their belief system which told them they will sleep until Jesus comes is the same system that told them that the devil would be tempting them out of the sleep...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

That doesn't speak to the question of how the soul decided to jump back up when Jesus called him.... except if 'that' was Jesus's second coming for Lazurus...

Interstingly enough this weekend I was reading Ramtha's White Book, he is discussed his dispair at all the souls laying in graves sleeping, and all the other souls attempting to wake them so they can continue in life everlasting...few get up, most continue to wait...ignoring those attempting to wake them for their belief system which told them they will sleep until Jesus comes is the same system that told them that the devil would be tempting them out of the sleep...

Christ weeped not for the death of His friend, but because He had to pull him back from the place he was in, to prove a point. Lazuraus did not come back happy, remember, he came back dazed, confused, and angry (I opine).

Everything was screwed up. Because man is such a moron, when it comes to trusting God. Jesus had to make an example, just to make us understand His purpose and power. Jesus did not bring Lazarous back from the dead for his sisters' sakes, He did it for ours.

v/r

Q

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Christ weeped not for the death of His friend, but because He had to pull him back from the place he was in, to prove a point. Lazuraus did not come back happy, remember, he came back dazed, confused, and angry (I opine).

Everything was screwed up. Because man is such a moron, when it comes to trusting God. Jesus had to make an example, just to make us understand His purpose and power. Jesus did not bring Lazarous back from the dead for his sisters' sakes, He did it for ours.

v/r

Q

yep that is exactly why Jesus raised him from the dead & why he wept.

[tommy]

Originally Posted by Bandit

I have seen Reno buried in snow & i am talking 20 foot mounds of snow on both sides of freeway 80.

but what purpose would the spirit serve to stay with the dead body? i suppose it could have still been right with Lazarus, there seeing that Jesus knew in advance he was going to raise Lazarus. i dont think Lazarus knew anything while he was sleeping. i think there is one place there where Martha was not aware of what Jesus was going to do, because she mentioned Lazarus being resurrected at the last resurrection.

unless you are saying that all spirits stay with the body as they decompose until they are resurrected?
i guess i just dont see where it really matters where the spirit goes after the body dies. now, nothing can keep a spirit buried in dirt or inside of a tomb unless the power of God says so, otherwise i would think the spirit goes back to God somewhere in spirit world & is in some kind of sleep until the last resurrection. unless some people are resurrected immediatley into a spiritual body. but i would have to agree for the most part, the spirit of a man does not go floating around, looking down at other people, though we often think of it that way when we think of friends & family. BUT- not saying that is not a possiblity for some because i dont really know for sure.
OTH, Lazarus was resurrected back into a mortal body & not an immortal body...& i actually view that as a 'type' of reincarnation & see a parallel there with the resurrection of Jesus, except i think Jesus was given (changed) into immortalitiy & he does look down upon us & can be everywhere at all times.

interesting that is for sure.

Thanks again for your thoughts. I do believe that we experience a "recreation" of one's earthly self at the peak of our being when our bodies were at their most perfect state. As opposed to a recarnation into another body a recreation would restore our own body, without the imperfections, as God originally intended for us. That would mean sickness, deformation, and old age would be gone. Kind of like how a beautiful Redwood tree that was designed to grow forever would be.

As I started forming my response, you answered it in yours. The spirit soul needs no body to rest in. Those who died in planes on 9/11 for example may appear walking out of the ocean for example. The one big mystery I do not know if will we have a memory. I am not sure. I have heard we will live with our loved ones. But then what happens if one of our loved ones don't come into the truth? Can we be hurt in this new perfect system (one with no Satan influences that currectly nag us, thanks Adam ). Would it make sense that our memory dies with the fleshly brain? Perhaps not, here's why. Lazarus came back with his memory, pretty amazing forshadowing of things to come. Elijah raised the little girl through God, she was restored too and had her memory.

Where does the spirit go? I believe in what we read in the Bible about Sheol, the resting place of the soul awaiting the resurrection. I like what you put up this morning about the dead are sleeping peacefully in rest which is comforting to those who have gone before us. I don't believe the Grand Creator torments souls in a fiery hell either.

Both the righteousness and the unrighteous will be resurrected. The unrighteous will have the ability in changing their ways and learning the two main issues that satan brought us through Adam. That God is the soviergn Almighty Creator who's name shall be sanctified and that man will be loyal to Him, even if there is nothing to gain other then praising our grand creator. This is what think about salvation and that God's Son Jesus is the only way we can get to the Father (not the Saints or the pope). Peace, tommy

[Faithfulservant]

Ive always believed that the story of the Lazarus that went to Abrahams bosom was the Lazarus that Christ resurrected. I do not believe that the gates of Heaven were opened until Christ died for the sins of the world, but I do believe that the departed did go somewhere whether it was a place of comfort like Abrahams bosom or a place of torment which was Hades.

[tommy]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Christ weeped not for the death of His friend, but because He had to pull him back from the place he was in, to prove a point. Lazuraus did not come back happy, remember, he came back dazed, confused, and angry (I opine).

Everything was screwed up. Because man is such a moron, when it comes to trusting God. Jesus had to make an example, just to make us understand His purpose and power. Jesus did not bring Lazarous back from the dead for his sisters' sakes, He did it for ours.

v/r

Q

Hi Quahom (Do you mind if I call you Joshua?)

Here's what I researched about after Lazurus came back. John 12: 1-2 "Accordingly Jesus, six days before the passover, arrived at Bethany where Lazuras was whom Jesus raised from the dead". "Therefore they spread an evening meal for him there, and Martha was ministering, but Lazarus was one of those reclining at the table with him".

It says Lazarus was "reclining" with Jesus. This actually sounds like he's kicking back and doesn't sound like he was mad at Jesus for bringing him back or angry. Remember Lazarus was a beggar and in these late verses he's kicking back reclining with Jesus over a dinner. Where does the angry stuff come from? I picture him with a BIG smile on his face looking at his loved ones and the smell of death has gone from him.