Did Jesus die?

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by wil

Would it? What is the difference? Is Esoteric Christian Mysticism more accepting? or less Christian? I'm so confused, I am loving that all of us can have our respective opinions, beliefs, issues and understandings and openly discuss these nuances...

This is a Christian forum. I was merely suggesting that if one wishes to discuss teachings abherrant to the traditional Christian doctrine, then it ought be discussed elsewhere. What the OP is suggesting falls well past what can be considered the pail of orthodox Christianity. Or is it too much to ask that we respect that? Just as we should respect the other Abrahamic religions when we go into their forums.

[wil]

Namaste Dondi

Originally Posted by Dondi

What the OP is suggesting falls well past what can be considered the pail of orthodox Christianity.

Suggesting?? It appears to me we have a lost soul that is inquisitive...do we send them out of the Christianity forum to find their own way? Doesn't sound Christian

I would like to know what your thoughts are on the following please. I would like to state that this in no way reflects my thoughts and is something I have put together quickly from other sources. Many thanks.

Originally Posted by Dondi

Or is it too much to ask that we respect that? Just as we should respect the other Abrahamic religions when we go into their forums.

Not at all, we are inquiring as to the scope and breadth of this wonderful loving Christian faith.

[lunamoth]

IMO this topic pushes the envelope on the COC as one of the very few guidelines for the Christianity board is this:

"The Christianity board has a remit to discuss mainstream Christian beliefs across denominations, where the founding doctrine is that Jesus Christ offers sole salvation to humanity though His Death on the cross."

2 c,
lunamoth

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by wil

Suggesting?? It appears to me we have a lost soul that is inquisitive...do we send them out of the Christianity forum to find their own way? Doesn't sound Christian Not at all, we are inquiring as to the scope and breadth of this wonderful loving Christian faith.

We send him out already if we aren't answering his question in conventional orthodox way. He is seeking a Christian answer in a Christian forum. So wouldn't it be prudent give a traditional Christian reponse.

I have no problem in responding in an unconventional manner, just not here.

I would like to ask the moderator that this thread be moved to the Beliefs and Spirituality in this case.

[brucegdc]

Agree 100% Dondi & Luna - within the Christianity forum, the rules are on the sticky post at The Christianity Board

Asking the original question and the 'mainstream' Christian answers is reasonable here (Christianity board) - with the mainstream answer being "Nope. Not the case - contrary to liturgical evidence & belief".

The esoteric answers from wil & taijisi properly belong in a Christian esoterica section. Brian is working on a re-working of the section containing esoterica (including a renaming to Alternative from Pagan..). The best bet is that it belongs to the Mysticism board under Alternative (Esoterica being focussed on more new age pieces) right now. Thread moved there.

[wil]

Originally Posted by brucegdc

Asking the original question and the 'mainstream' Christian answers is reasonable here (Christianity board) - with the mainstream answer being "Nope. Not the case - contrary to liturgical evidence & belief".

The esoteric answers from wil ... properly belong in a Christian esoterica section. ...

Please to explain and quote me as to where I did not answer just as you suggest is correct above and where I provided 'esoteric' answers instead.

I thought I followed your rules and guidelines, and simply reframed the original question so as to get us back on topic. (The new member Penguin had issues in another thread when the question went off on tangents not in line with the original question and Penguin posted twice about confusion with the discussion v. the questions).

How does one get answers from mainstream Christianity on troubling questions if they are shoved to the Alternative Mysticism board...I suppose we are hoping some thoughtful person will be knocking on their door with pamphlets that contain all the answers...

[taijasi]

Whew! Thanks, Bruce! I knew we were out on a limb (with all acknowledgments to Shirley Maclaine) ... but now I'm comfortable speaking my piece/peace.

For what it's worth, I personally just take for granted that Jesus of Nazareth made the travels alleged - starting with some amount of time spent in Egypt, which was the Beacon of the Eastern teachings, as it were. His travels then took him God-knows where (sic), including Ladakh, and into various parts of India, according to various accounts.

One can gather half a dozen sources for this information easily, and need not rely on the accounts of one author alone - although I think Notovich's testimony has not been disproven, merely challenged. Last I had heard, a lama somewhere just laughed when they asked about Notovich's scrolls (the inspiration behind his tales of Issa) ... but what does that prove? That the good Lama was being careful to guard the records from the overly-skeptical, who would as soon destroy these accounts if that were necessary to "protect the faith."

But as I say, St. Issa's chronicle is well recorded, as his travels were (once) no secret! One might do better in the investigation - of both Issa and Jesus of Nazareth, if the focus is directed at the period 105BC to ~72BC ... since these are the years when the Jesus in question lived and preached, walked and talked. Certainly another Jesus came later, but I think posterity will show that the former was the greater (and the Initiate), not vice versa as so many maintain.

Something I do not find necessary to believe, although it is the actual subject of this thread, is the idea that Jesus survived the Crucifixion. Some accounts support this possibility, others simply tend not to mention it. Few accounts would indicate it as an outright impossibilty. But one should always ask the question, What purpose might be served by bodily survival? I can give several answers to that question, but even if the answers are correct, it doesn't prove that Jesus survived. I just think it matters not one whit whether he died or not, since this has nothing whatsoever to do with my sins, or with Humanity's, imo - save for the general statement of truth that "we all crucified Christ." I was reluctant to state that so boldly - but here, it's no big deal, eh?

Thanks, however, to Luna - and to Dondi - for keeping things in line until this thread got shifted. I think you were right on to lean on me like that, Laurie. And I didn't mean to come out guns a-blazin', Dondi. I just feel like the "aberrances" - however deviant (and the deviants, however aberrant ) - need their due expression. God knows I sometimes cover two or three bases at once, if at other times, I manage to lose "Home!"


Anyway, here is a short excerpt from On Eastern Crossroads which I find inspiring:

THE WAY OF CHRIST
HUS shall we begin the story of His life, that the unmutilated word shall be inscribed upon earth.
For thirty years He walked repeating the word so as to impart it to those who would not receive it. The Teachings of Buddha, of Zoroaster, and the old sayings of the Vedas, He learned upon the crossroads. Perceiving pure eyes, He asked, “Know you aught of God?” By river barges He awaited the travelers and asked, “Do you bear aught for me?” For it was need that He cross with human feet and ask with human words.
When He was told of the starry signs He asked to know their verdicts; but the alphabet had no attraction for Him; people did not exist for this. “How can I calm the devastating storm? How can I disclose the heaven to men? Why are they rent from the eternal existence to which they belong?”
Such teaching of the essence of life effaced methods of magic because instead of winning the subservience of the minor spirits of nature He razed all obstacles with the sword of His spirit. His teaching guided the people to the possibilities of the spirit. Therefore there were no prophets near Him but only by the stars one knew of Him.
We knew much and He was all-able. Then we resolved to serve His Teaching.

Peace,

taijasi

[taijasi]

I can't resist. On Eastern Crossroads has so many beautiful stories about the life of Christ, as spoken 1st person by one who was there - and who is yet here still. Here is another short one of his, which references Christ's travels East:

THE ARRIVAL OF CHRIST
NE should remember the day of the most joyless offering—Christ who only gave, accepting nothing. This determination from an early age brought Him across a scorching desert. And His Feet burned as those of a simple driver.
We awaited Him. But as usual, the moment of His coming was unexpected. A horse had been brought to Me and I was bidding farewell to My family when a servant noticed a ragged traveler. His slender face was pale, and His hair hung in wavy locks below His shoulders. And only a gray sack-cloth covered His body. I did not even see a gourd for drinking. But My wife went first to meet Him, and when afterwards I asked her why she had hastened, she said, “It seemed as though a star glowed in my bosom, and the heat, even to pain, burst into rays.”
For the Traveler was already exalted as He approached the tent. Then I understood Who had come.
After crossing the desert He partook only of corn bread and a cup of water and soon asked, “When shall We depart?”
I replied, “When the Star permits.”
And We awaited the sign of the Star. He was silent repeating only, “When?”
And marking the Star, I said, “There is blood in Pisces.”
He only nodded.
Thus for three years daily We awaited. And the light of the Star shone over Us. I recall He spoke somewhat of a vision of Light in which a small boy brought Him a sword. And when Light, as a Rainbow, was poured before Him, a soundless Voice bade Him go. I was told to accompany Him, where I Myself was not yet to enter.
On a white camel We set out by night. And by night-crossing We reached Lahore where We found a follower of Buddha, apparently expecting Us. Never have I seen such decision.
Because We were on Our way for three years. We awaited Him and brought Him to Jordan. Again a white sack-cloth covered Him. And again He set forth alone under the morning Sun. And a Rainbow shone over Him.

The text of this book is available freely online, even for full download, at www.agniyoga.org. Several more excerpts provide glimpses into the life of Christ, as perhaps no other text has done. Enjoy!

taijasi

[Penguin]

I'd just like to say that my original question on did jesus die was a genuine one and I am in no way being confrontational or anything. I have come here to learn and I am dumb on various aspects and wish to discuss them with people. If I have offended in anyway I whole heartedly apologise. I thought I would ask the question after watching a documentary and reading some of the website on the tomb of jesus (the link I posted). I wanted to see what the opinion on this was, nothing more. Maybe the questions in this and my other posts have been to direct, but I have always been told "if you don't know son, then ask!" Many thanks.

[brucegdc]

Originally Posted by Penguin

I'd just like to say that my original question on did jesus die was a genuine one and I am in no way being confrontational or anything. I have come here to learn and I am dumb on various aspects and wish to discuss them with people. If I have offended in anyway I whole heartedly apologise. I thought I would ask the question after watching a documentary and reading some of the website on the tomb of jesus (the link I posted). I wanted to see what the opinion on this was, nothing more. Maybe the questions in this and my other posts have been to direct, but I have always been told "if you don't know son, then ask!" Many thanks.

No, as I said, the original post was quite valid - it's just that this thread has wandered since into a variety of belief that is specifically questionable on the Christian board, so I moved it here to make a fit for where it's wandered... after all, since the answer to the original question given the rules of the Christianity board can only be "of course he did...", the discussion there would be rather shortened. Here, the various dynamics of the question can be wandered off into further without breaking rules.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by brucegdc

No, as I said, the original post was quite valid - it's just that this thread has wandered since into a variety of belief that is specifically questionable on the Christian board, so I moved it here to make a fit for where it's wandered... after all, since the answer to the original question given the rules of the Christianity board can only be "of course he did...", the discussion there would be rather shortened. Here, the various dynamics of the question can be wandered off into further without breaking rules.

My sentiments exactly. The OP's question wasn't the problem. it was the answers that were being discussed in response was my only concern. the discussion could have very well coursed into a discussion of the orthodox views of Christ's death. As it was, it was one that got away.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Dondi

I suppose anything is possible. The question is: Is it likely? With all these various theories being probagated with the Da Vinci Code, the Gospel of Judas, and the emergence of Gnostic interest, there are undoubtably going to be questions like this. The other day I walked into a book store and saw no less that 8 books out in just out in front near the best sellers shelf pertaining to Jesus and the recent trend to explore alternate Christian views.

I, for one, am one who is influenced by evidence. Evidence that point to the likelihood of a certain event. The fact is that the Biblical Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John), along with the Pauline and Apostolic epistles of the New Testament are the closest documents we have to the actual events. There are over 5000 manuscripts or partial manuscripts dating back to the early second century which collaborated together lends accuracy to the New Testament document. The New Testament canon has been established and has stood the test of time up until this day.

But now all these aberrant "gospels" pop up and we are now just supposed to believe them? Most of these "gospels" are dated centuries after their supposed occurance and the documented evidence is scant. And we are now to believe that Jesus fathered a child via Mary Magdeline? Or that Judas was a good guy after all? Or that Jesus escaped the Cross and disappeared to India and lived out the rest of His life as some kind of guru? Where is the evidence for this? Why are people suddenly trying to dismiss the evidence as presented in the Biblical Gospels after 2000 years as the accepted Gospel Truth?

Sure, you can believe what you want to, but does your belief really hold water?

I suppose now I am clear? This was the proper direct answer in the Christian forum, lumping his question in with a variety of other recent topics?

We are supposed to be respectful yet it is completely allowable to refer to a new member, new poster with a response that infers his question is aberrant...(when they indicated they were Christian but confused and wanted to know how to consider the topic) "Sure, you can believe what you want to, but does your belief really hold water?"

I'm just baffled. Is this what Jesus would do? "She's an adulter, broke our law, should we stone her?", "Sorry your question doesn't belong here...I'm gonna send you to the Essenes, or maybe you belong in the Roman forum for that discussion"

My sentiments exactly. The OP's question wasn't the problem. it was the answers that were being discussed in response was my only concern. the discussion could have very well coursed into a discussion of the orthodox views of Christ's death. As it was, it was one that got away.

It seems you were an early reply (as shown above) yet that was not the direction you lead our lost soul. I thought for sure my responses were straightforward and within the guidelines but I was chastised for going out of bounds...

[Dondi]

Is it not Christian to lead one to the truth of the Gospel? Did not Jesus berate the scribes and the Pharasees for being out of line? If this one is looking for salvation in the Christian forum, then we must be discerning about what Christianity stands for. If the person truly wants to know the truth, as presented in the Christian forum, then how are we to guide him to that truth properly if all he hears are these other abherrant teachings coming from outside the Christain norm? Jesus never deviated from what He believed to be the truth. He never compromised the message. He told things as they were. Surely, you must know that some had ears to hear and some didn't. You don't lead a lost soul into a forest of confusing ideas that has little to do with Christianity, if that is what he is seeking.

If he wants to ask the same question again in the Christian forum, I'd be happy to answer, within a Christian context of course.

On the other hand, if he wishes to seek answers apart from the Christian doctrine, then this is the right place.

[taijasi]

Yes, sometimes I do hafta just smack myself in the forehead, and remind myself - "yes, they call themselves `Christian'!" Mob rules only applies where might makes right ...

For the record, aberrant is one thing, and abhorrent is another. I'll take the former over the latter any day, when it comes to unpopular beliefs. And if I were to end up the last idiot on earth believing these *gasp* - UNpopular, NON-traditional, dare I say heretical ( ) notions - ... ya know, it wouldn't phase me one bit.



The "Members Only" club mentality, frankly, is what disgusts me about Christianity - or rather, the churchianity that has run away with Christ's name. Believe this, genuflect like that, say your Our Fathers and Nicene Creeds like this ... and it's back to Jethro Tull (`My God'):

He is the god of nothing if that's all that you can see/
He is the God of everything, He's inside you and me.

A child knows this. S/he doesn't need any outside agency to make, keep, enforce, and jealously guard "the rules." Forums have rules - now let's all abide by them, and stop acting like we have sole ownership of God's own Truth! Again, Christ's image is not copyrighted.

I may have contributed somewhat to the stirring up earlier on this thread, Dondi but let's settle things without getting haughty. I could just as easily hold up a mirror to statements like:

You don't lead a lost soul into a forest of confusing ideas that has little to do with Christianity, if that is what he is seeking.

and respond with Yes, you are correct, and that is why I spoke up!!!

Instead, I simply suggest that there are many approaches to and interpretations of what Jesus taught, how he went about it, where he studied & learned the Wisdom of God, and how his last days, hours & minutes were spent. Notice I did not say, HERE IS THE TRUTH - and beware of these abherrant (sic) voices, these false ones, who distort the official truth!!!

sighhh ... what I perceive, is that we have a vested interest in sticking to the status quo, and quickly relegating any alternate interpretations to the common, dead-letter versions (canons, creeds, TM insignia and the whole nine yards) to the Outsider's Club.

Ahhh, but remember friend (we tell the inquirer), if you want to know what the REAL Christians believe, come talk to us. We run this club, and we have the answers.

No, I am disgusted by that kind of mentality. Dondi, that is not a personal attack aimed at you. I am being a bit direct, but I'm really speaking of something that we have all inherited. I was Lutheran myself, after all, for the first 1/3 of my life, and I know my opponent well enough from direct experience. It has to do with fear - being afraid to question, afraid to "try on" a different robe of beliefs than the one we've grown accustomed to, and a fear that somehow, just maybe - unlikely as we've told ourself it must be - somehow, there might be more to the picture than what we've bought into, lock, stock 'n barrel!

And nobody suggests we discard our Faith and start from scratch, or "throw the baby out with the bathwater," abandoning a ship which by some reckoning could be said to have run aground long ago - now sinking fast. Huh-uh, all's I dare to come out with is that people have (and should use) eyes and ears of their own (as was mentioned), and if one wants to know how the ship arrived at its present location, there are many records available in the captain's quarters. I didn't say anything about mutiny, and I didn't suggest that you go throw yourself overboard - being an unfit crew member to help the rest of us out of the jam. Hmmmm - how readily we rush to force the swabs to walk the plank ... but I will ask you, even if you force me into the water at proverbial swordpoint - have you seen what's in the captain's quarters? And are you so sure that what you've come to believe is "God's only, highest, and Gospel truth?"

At best, I can accept that you simply feel strongly about the tradition you've come to follow and cherish. I can respect that. Can you respect that my own take on things is every bit as important to me, and that I find it every bit as sound as (even more so than) the version which you and the majority uphold? If your concern is that poor, confused Penguin is being misguided with all these strange notions, then let me assure you, I make no bones about my unconventionality. But I will assert with equal vigor that it is what I believe which is the accurate version, and that what you believe, though well intentioned, is actually confusion.

I have but turned the tables, and shown that the mirror can reflect whatever you dish out. Amazing how much we are asked to absorb, to swallow our pride as it were, and simply let things roll off. And we do. Humbling ourselves sometimes, all but throwing in the towel at others, almost lamenting sometimes - that once again, tradition trumps truth. If it be for the right reasons (all in the name of harmony, discussion, and the building of rapport), then no humility is too great to suffer. History bears witness to those whose lives were thick with calumnly and constant accusation, yet who plowed determinedly forward, as if impervious. I assure you, they were not.

And from time to time, if for the right reasons, one is called to stand. And I will stand, saying to Penguin only that I believe something unconventional, but that every fiber of my being tells me that it is so. Jesus traveled East ... and I cannot be sure about his death on, or off, the cross. But it's more important to me to seek, to continue to inquire and be open to all possibilities - than to chase off people who happen to disagree with me (even if they number in the many millions). At least I will no longer be burned at the stake for believing as I do. Chased away, yes, but not burned alive.



Strength comes not always of numbers, nor of our convictions (or faith) alone. Let me share another episode from Christ's life, this time a confrontation with the Sanhedrin:

THE QUESTIONER OF CINEDRION
MEMBER of Cinedrion asked Christ:
“Would you come to us if we should ask you?”
Christ answered:
“Better would I go to the cemetery for there is no lie.”
A member of Cinedrion asked Christ, “Why dost thou not acknowledge us if even Thy father was married by one of our members?”
“Wait until your house crumbles; then shall We come.”
“Wherefore shalt thou come—to destroy or to erect?”
“Neither for destruction nor erection but for purification. Because I shall not return to the old hearth.”
“How then, not to respect your forefathers!”
“New cups are given for the feast. Respecting a grandfather, one need not drink out of his cup.”

Respect means not belittling those of other beliefs, no matter how different they are from the `norm.' Let us speak more about our beliefs, and less about the truth. As for rescuing the surviving pearls ... and seeing to it that all is not lost in utter confusion - yes, there are some who labor quite ceaselessly that this may be so.

In Love and Light,

taijasi

[Dondi]

taijasi,

You seem to think that I don't invite nor am open to other interpretations. the fact of the matter is that I do consider alternatives.

But what happened here was akin to me going into the Islam board and suggesting that Mohommed was God. Or me going into the Judaism board and suggesting that human child sacrifice was acceptable to the ancient Israelite rituals. You just don't go into the specific boards and tear apart the accepted beliefs of that board.

Here on this particular board, have at it! This is a place where one can assert their views on a non-crucified Jesus, if you will.

Now if you don't mind, I hope that we can drop the matter and get on with the question at hand.