dialogue about dialogue

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by traveler

Is it a belief, is it a religion ?

Isn't that the question that devides one Christian group from another? We all imagine ourselves to be the ones who aren't "religious". I see an eternal balancing act between the benefits of fixed belief and the benefits of exploring the grey zone. If a liberal point of view puts us in the position of being unable to think that a conservative pov could not possibly be right, then that's religious (dogmatic, systematized).

I see religion as an artifact of not closely examining the true nature of our personal beliefs. I know that sounds strange, but often we coast along in autopilot, spouting the party line, knowing what we stand for because we are standing in a certain group. Wen we take the leap of truthfully examining our real inner terrain, what we in fact believe, what truly motivates our actions, is often quite different.

What that has to do with dialogue...? I guess the purpose for me of coming to a forum of this kind is to examine my own unfolding understanding of the divine, to examine the views and prejudices of others along the path and see if I can discern roadmarks from the tales of fellow travellers.

Be Blessed...

Nicely put Traveler.

Welcome to CR

[wil]

Originally Posted by traveler

If a liberal point of view puts us in the position of being unable to think that a conservative pov could not possibly be right, then that's religious (dogmatic, systematized).

I'm not of the opinion that the conservative viewpoint couldn't be right, it is just that on the regular Christianity board we couldn't discuss whether or not hell or heaven or Jesus or the trinity exists. To be fair to others another board was created where a 360 degree inside out discussion could be had regarding items that are considered sancrosanct, heretical, blasphemous, by some. So a space was created that was known to be a little edgy a little wild and where one wouldn't have to worry about folks indicating they were going to go to hell for thinking, saying or contemplating one thing or another...and on the flip side they weren't on the christian board pulling the ceremonial rug out from under anyone...

Originally Posted by Prober

BTW, would that make "Liberal" a sub-forum of "Christianity" by itself or make two sub-forums with "Conservative" under "Christianity" as well?

In order to keep from having 72 different subforums...I don't worry about that issue.

The rastas aren't under Christian and Bahai aren't Abrahamic here...and Belief and Spirituality was the only forum above the fold that didn't have a subforum....we liberals are believers and spiritual...I'm ok wherever you put us...I'm not runnin the thing...just a user...

[Prober]

Rastas are Christian? Shows how much I know...

I guess you're right about the 72 subs thing. That wouldn't be good.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Prober

I see what you're both saying and agree. Perhaps it would make it easier for others to compare positions

BTW, would that make "Liberal" a sub-forum of "Christianity" by itself or make two sub-forums with "Conservative" under "Christianity" as well?

My preference would be just to eliminate the Liberal forum. For goodness sakes, the main Christian forum includes JW, LDS, YECs and SDAs...pretty much every Christian sect. I don't understand why views from the more liberal end of the spectrum are not tolerated there.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

My preference would be just to eliminate the Liberal forum. For goodness sakes, the main Christian forum includes JW, LDS, YECs and SDAs...pretty much every Christian sect. I don't understand why views from the more liberal end of the spectrum are not tolerated there.

Yes!!

[Prober]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

My preference would be just to eliminate the Liberal forum. For goodness sakes, the main Christian forum includes JW, LDS, YECs and SDAs...pretty much every Christian sect. I don't understand why views from the more liberal end of the spectrum are not tolerated there.

I sort of agree. Christians of all flavors, by nature, should be able to converse pleasantly, keeping the love of one's neighbor in mind, etc.

I think Dondi said it best...

Originally Posted by Dondi

There has to be a way where those who hold an orthodox view can discuss issues without having a lot of abbretion entering in to avoid confusion for someone who is inquiring about the Historic Christian faith. While at the same time, LC provides for other avenues of Christianity that can be freely explored.

It does seem like two different religions sometimes, doesn't it?

p.s. What are "YECs"?

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Prober

p.s. What are "YECs"?

Hum de dum... It means "Young Earth Christians."

[Sunny C.]

There has to be a way where those who hold an orthodox view can discuss issues without having a lot of abbretion entering in to avoid confusion for someone who is inquiring about the Historic Christian faith. While at the same time, LC provides for other avenues of Christianity that can be freely explored.

I agree. And as wil has pointed out, the issue is less substantive than it is political. The Liberal Christianity forum is under B&S, which is described as place for General thinking beyond the boundaries of religion and organised belief. But that isn't what Liberal Christianity is. It's not outside of religion and organized belief at all. It's a symbolic smack in the face to Liberal Christians because it de-legitimizes their faith. It establishes who the real Christians are: those over here in Abrahamic, and places their factional rivals in the "none of the above, misc." category. That's essentially apartheid in action. This separate but equal solution isn't a solution at all. It's institutionalized bigotry.

But I think we do want to, as you said, reserve a place where serious Christian theology can be discussed in a respectful and productive way. If a suitable accommodation can be made for everyone in a way that dissolves the corrosive factional competition and politics that would be a stroke of genius. I think it could happen because this is a special place with a very genial core of long time participants.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

My preference would be just to eliminate the Liberal forum. For goodness sakes, the main Christian forum includes JW, LDS, YECs and SDAs...pretty much every Christian sect. I don't understand why views from the more liberal end of the spectrum are not tolerated there.

I realize not everybody has been here through the tumultuous times of the past couple of years, but dear Luna, you have. How quickly we have forgotten...

I agree that perhaps the Liberal Board might be moved into Abrahamic (of course it would take that much away from the B&S board, ). But there is method to the madness, even if that madness has long subsided. Perhaps were there more participants on other boards a need to distinguish orthodox from extra-orthodox may or may not develop, one hopes CR will grow enough in time to address those concerns when the time comes. But it was an administrative necessity at the time it was done to pacify the masses. Besides, as I recall, wasn't it at the behest of the so-called "Liberal faction" that the LC board was created anyway? Is it not more than just a little disingenuous for the Liberal party to cry foul to get a Liberal Board, and then cry foul because there is a Liberal Board?

As always, diverse views are welcome anywhere provided there is respect shown to those of the particular persuasion the faith specific board represents. One wouldn't bad mouth the Buddha on the Buddhism board, for instance. The Christian board became through default of long time posters the "orthodox" view. The Liberal board was created to allow those who wished to explore extra-orthodox points of view without presenting an uncomfortable dilemma for the orthodox, as many extra-orthodox views are held by the orthodox to be heretical and anathema. This is no small matter to those concerned, and the administrative choices were made to respect that dilemma.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by wil

I'm not of the opinion that the conservative viewpoint couldn't be right, it is just that on the regular Christianity board we couldn't discuss whether or not hell or heaven or Jesus or the trinity exists. To be fair to others another board was created where a 360 degree inside out discussion could be had regarding items that are considered sancrosanct, heretical, blasphemous, by some. So a space was created that was known to be a little edgy a little wild and where one wouldn't have to worry about folks indicating they were going to go to hell for thinking, saying or contemplating one thing or another...and on the flip side they weren't on the christian board pulling the ceremonial rug out from under anyone...

...and Belief and Spirituality was the only forum above the fold that didn't have a subforum....we liberals are believers and spiritual...I'm ok wherever you put us...I'm not runnin the thing...just a user...

Two BIG thumbs up!!!

[lunamoth]

I am only speaking for myself Juan. I agree with what Sunny says. As far as I can tell I am one of the only ones, maybe one of a few, who do not like the Liberal board, and especially its placement in B & S. Most others here like it as far as I can tell. I certainly don't expect to have it changed just for me, but I also think I'm entitiled to give my honest opinion here.

Liberal Christian theology is 'real' Christian theology, regardless of what folks here might say. Liberal theology, Liberation theology, Femininism theology, Black theology...all legitimate fields of theology in Christianity. People may not like or agree with what someone like Spong or Tillich has to say...but what they are talking about is Christian theology.

Just remember, Luther was quite the radical liberal theologian of his day.

My solution, put forward before but never noticed I guess, is that within the main Christian board, if someone wants to limit discussion to just conservative view or traditional view or liberal view, they can say so in the OP and as grown-ups here we can all abide by that.

YEC is Young Earth Creationists.

just my 2 c,
luna

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I am only speaking for myself Juan. I agree with what Sunny says. As far as I can tell I am one of the only ones, maybe one of a few, who do not like the Liberal board, and especially its placement in B & S. Most others here like it as far as I can tell. I certainly don't expect to have it changed just for me, but I also think I'm entitiled to give my honest opinion here.

Liberal Christian theology is 'real' Christian theology, regardless of what folks here might say. Liberal theology, Liberation theology, Femininism theology, Black theology...all legitimate fields of theology in Christianity. People may not like or agree with what someone like Spong or Tillich has to say...but what they are talking about is Christian theology.

Just remember, Luther was quite the radical liberal theologian of his day.

My solution, put forward before but never noticed I guess, is that within the main Christian board, if someone wants to limit discussion to just conservative view or traditional view or liberal view, they can say so in the OP and as grown-ups here we can all abide by that.

I didn't mean in any way to imply you were not entitled to an opinion on the matter, so you have my apologies if I came across that way.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

YEC is Young Earth Creationists.

I stand corrected, it is Young Earth Creationist, my bad.

[Sunny C.]

Thanks for the history in a nutshell, Juan. From what I can see there is no Liberal Christianity faction. Such would be comprised of Anglicans, Christ Church, liberal Methodists, maybe reformed Quakers... All would still hold to the same essential confession of Christ, but also hold more progressive views on a variety of topics. I think it's more likely that the Theosophists and neo-Gnostics were the thorn in the side of the conservatives, and since Liberal is such a pervasively pejorative term to them they stereotyped and mislabeled all the heretics in their rush to retain hegemony over the symbolic capitol of Christendom on the Abrahamic board. I'm just guessing.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Sunny!

Originally Posted by Sunny C.

Thanks for the history in a nutshell, Juan. From what I can see there is no Liberal Christianity faction.

You really just had to be there.

Originally Posted by Sunny C.

Such would be comprised of Anglicans, Christ Church, liberal Methodists, maybe reformed Quakers... All would still hold to the same essential confession of Christ, but also hold more progressive views on a variety of topics. I think it's more likely that the Theosophists and neo-Gnostics were the thorn in the side of the conservatives, and since Liberal is such a pervasively pejorative term to them they stereotyped and mislabeled all the heretics in their rush to retain hegemony over the symbolic capitol of Christendom on the Abrahamic board. I'm just guessing.

That's what is difficult over the whole thing, nobody really sided by denomination per se, shoot there was a long time participant Gnostic that took part on the orthodox board...he just didn't rub everyone's face in it. I really miss Abogado, and wish him well wherever he is.

How should I feel? I was asked long ago to moderate the board and I'm not liberal or orthodox, I'm reactionary! But it is my opinion and my job to respect everybody's view, liberal and orthodox. I do my best to do just that. I am familiar enough with the subtleties and nuances of the faith to know where certain lines are, and believe me I get plenty of reminders too from others.

The situation at that time was very complex. It wasn't simply "us vs them." There are a number of liberal minded posters who have long participated on the orthodox board, and I think the major reason they were able to pull it off so to speak is because of the way they presented themselves. There came to be certain persons who began deliberate challenges to orthodoxy that made some of the long timers uncomfortable, and we ended up with a series of shouting matches that in no way exemplified Christian ideals, on either side. The solution is what you see here now.

CR is not perfect, none of us have claimed to be. CR is a work in progress. Sometimes we get it right, sometimes we don't. We try to learn from our experiences and move on. I would like to think that what each of us learns from this site is carried out into the world at large and continues.

Tolerance is an art that must be developed, it doesn't just happen. Even people who claim to be tolerant may have hidden intolerances. This place helps us, at least I know it does me, learn to deal with those things we struggle with regarding tolerance. Some people you can't just throw into the deep end of the pool and expect not to drown, they gotta learn to swim first.

[Prober]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Hum de dum... It means "Young Earth Christians."

Again vis der Marble Head!

I guess that applies to me.

(or Creationist - that's me too)