Destiny

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

And this is the nub of it, the churches, mosques and synagogues of the world are full to overspilling with hypocracy[sic]. And the leaders love this hypocracy, they feed it by promoting the idea of sin in almost every pleasure. Its a horrible circular sick-logic, one honed to perfection down centuries.

the thing is, t_e, is that i feel this is a rhetorical point. i can't speak for mosques and churches, but i don't see this stuff going on in synagogues. what people are concerned about in synagogues is precisely what i was complaining about in my earlier post - that we are not acting enough, but waiting for G!D to sort everything out for us instead of sorting it out for ourselves. your argument seems to me to be a sort of warmed-over C18th anti-clerical straw man which doesn't actually seem to reflect the reality i live in. quite apart from the fact that judaism doesn't see religion as going on in the synagogue, but as something that happens in even the smallest and mundane places and actions of life.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

True but you cant prove it to be true tha G!D does intervene either

didn't you read what i said? i said that we believe that G!D wants us to sort this stuff out for ourselves (i.e. find a cure for cancer) rather than wait for the Divine Health & Safety Executive. G!D has established natural laws but if we don't like the results from them then it is within our power to attempt to alter the outcome for good. thus we may break the laws of the sabbath to save a life.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

didn't you read what i said? i said that we believe that G!D wants us to sort this stuff out for ourselves (i.e. find a cure for cancer) rather than wait for the Divine Health & Safety Executive. G!D has established natural laws but if we don't like the results from them then it is within our power to attempt to alter the outcome for good. thus we may break the laws of the sabbath to save a life.

b'shalom

bananabrain

Yes i did read what you said, and my response was to one part of it not the whole.

I have stated openly to you that my knowledge of Judaism is poor, to the extent that it is almost non-existatant. What I do know tho is that Jewish children attend Jewish schools and are schooled from a very young age in Jewish faith. By your own words they are taught that they are Gods children and that God is the God of Jews and Jews alone. So there is supremacy instilled from the begining. In that it is no different than Christianity or Islam. Whether or not Jews, like yourself, learn that it is in action not in thought that the real compliance with God's plan is excersised in practice powerful Jews dont give a hoot. They care about power and are as corrupt and nepotic as any other group.

TE

PS, I sort of resent being called a warmed up facist. I am anything but.

[InLove]

Hi Guys

Just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in....wait, no, that's not right...that's a First Edition tune. What I meant to say is that I just dropped in to say that I have to drop out for a couple of days (gotta go pack). But I'll come check here when I get back, and maybe I can comment some more then. I just wanted you to know I'm not ignoring your observations.

InPeace,
InLove

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by InLove

Hi Guys

Just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in....wait, no, that's not right...that's a First Edition tune. What I meant to say is that I just dropped in to say that I have to drop out for a couple of days (gotta go pack). But I'll come check here when I get back, and maybe I can comment some more then. I just wanted you to know I'm not ignoring your observations.

InPeace,
InLove

Ok dear, wherever you are off to I wish you a wonderful time

[bananabrain]

i didn't call you any kind of fascist. i did say that you were basically lumping me in with every other "abrahamic" in order to impute to me notions of supremacy that i do not, in fact, hold. if anyone was calling anyone else fascist, it was you to me, at least by implication.

By your own words they are taught that they are G!D's children and that G!D is the G!D of Jews and Jews alone.

eh??? if that is what you have understood, you have seriously, seriously misread what i said. i said that *judaism* is for jews. *G!D*, on the other hand, Is by *definition* G!D for *everyone*, not just us. however, our *way of worshipping* G!D is intended for us alone, in contradistinction to that of islam and christianity, which maintain, to lesser and greater degrees, that their way is the best way for everyone.

all children are G!D's children, just as all humans are made in the Divine Image, as it says in genesis, from which we understand that "whoever saves one life, saves an entire world". and being "schooled from a very young age in jewish faith" means being taught how to *keep the laws*, not about the finer points of theology. furthermore, not all jewish children attend jewish schools. i myself did not. i am intending to send my son to a jewish primary, but if i found that he was being taught supremacism i a) be very surprised and b) would withdraw him immediately, complain to the governors and report it to the papers.

Whether or not Jews, like yourself, learn that it is in action not in thought that the real compliance with G!D's plan is excersised in practice powerful Jews dont give a hoot. They care about power and are as corrupt and nepotic[sic] as any other group.

what exactly is your point here? that jews are not immune to being chauvinistic, greedy and corrupt? or that their religion does not prevent them being so? either way it does not make the religion mistaken unless it is the religion itself that teaches that such behaviour is acceptable - and it doesn't. what you are describing here is people who are, by any stretch of the imagination, committing some pretty major sins which they will have to answer for sooner or later. or have you some specific jews in mind? and are you suggesting that jews are nepotistic? if so, i think i ought to ask for some examples, before i let you get away with some rather unpleasant generalisations. george soros, for example, is about as powerful as jews get. so is alan greenspan. both feel pretty free and liberal about criticising other jews when they want to.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i didn't call you any kind of fascist. i did say that you were basically lumping me in with every other "abrahamic" in order to impute to me notions of supremacy that i do not, in fact, hold. if anyone was calling anyone else fascist, it was you to me, at least by implication.

When did I liken your thoughts to the ideaology of C18? No, not by implication or otherwise. It was you that did so to me.

what exactly is your point here? that jews are not immune to being chauvinistic, greedy and corrupt?

Exactly that.


I think what I say is pretty clear. People are people regardless of their affiliation.

I can easilly compile a list of high profile people who are Jewish. People that excrsise great power in the world, are in effect unaccoutable to anyone and are most definitely corrupt and see nepotism as their right. One in the news at the moment, Paul Wolfowitz, architect of the Iraqi invasion and sacked from the World Bank for.......yes nepotism. Infact looking closely there are an inordinate number of Jews in high power postions in the US, UK and elsewhere given population demographics. I dont claim some semetic conspiracy nor brand all Jews with one mark. But it is undeniable that there is a powerful elite there and many of them, most of them, are Jews. Do I believe this to be because of their religion? No of course I dont. Alan Greenspan may criticise other jews, I dont know, but I know he was the architect of Black Friday and the Dot Com bubble in which joe-punter shareholders were ripped off to the tune of billions. His history leads right back to the Kissinger gang. So if this guy be a hero....well i dont think much of your choices.


TE

[Postmaster]

Sometimes its always idiots that make it to material glory before everyone else, regardless of there faith and help through fellowship help can be seen everywhere though, you miss the biggest group Tao, the Anglo.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Sometimes its always idiots that make it to material glory before everyone else, regardless of there faith and help through fellowship help can be seen everywhere though, you miss the biggest group Tao, the Anglo.

I think them far from idiots. They are clever, calculating and manipulative. They have to be to get to the top,

[Tao_Equus]

Bananabrain,

This has been stewing with me all night. You clearly associated me with C18, a group of Nazi style anti-Zionist thugs. And then when I challenge you on it you try to turn it round and call me the fascist!! Now in the heat of a debate I might ignore that from most people but not from the Jewish section moderator on these forums.

I make no secret of my dislike of Israeli policy toward the Palestinians. This dislike is on humanitarian grounds and nothing else. I am troubled by the foreign policy of the Republican party leadership in the US, which is disproportionately heavy with Jewish policy makers. Again this is on humanitarian grounds.

I have till date found your postings lucid and informative and where you have argued a point you do so with vigour and logic. But I will not be bullied down with slurs of anti-semitism by you or anyone else because they are simply not true.

If you read back over what I was saying I never at any stage singled out the Jews as a special case. I have no anti-semetic thoughts, let alone agenda and I find that comment of yours an effort of intimidation. I have stated throughout my knowledge of Jewish faith is poor and I appologise for any misconceptions I may have put across. But a man of your intellect should be able to correct my mistakes without such inflamatory slurs.

TE

[Postmaster]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I think them far from idiots. They are clever, calculating and manipulative. They have to be to get to the top,

But saying that Tao I wouldn't say this means there is something sinister about Judaism or the specific people which personally I don't think you do think, I think it has a lot to do with there cultural back ground. As I’ am Diaspora Greek Cypriot myself, coming from a Christian back ground from a Middle Eastern country quite literally next door. I see in my community of Diaspora in the UK a lot who have accumulated a lot of money, out of all fairness originally from hard work but it seems some people did take a devious path or who started of legit and ended up not as legit. Or I have seen people that came from a very good family backgrounds become rich and remained very moral still. I've experienced an anti-Greek attitude purely and simply because of my families social status before and had the impression of being some kind of devil (that was a first). I guess it's different when you’re talking about rich compared to out right private jet wealth though. But it does make me wonder if one should be extremely cautious on judging. With Jewish people and not all are wealthy but the ones who did accumulated a lot of it, it is a cultural right. One should understand Jewish history to see how they got in this position (quite rightfully I would say).

The consequence of a lot of wealth is you start becoming dependent on it and lose touch of the greater population this aspect has nothing to do with ethnicity, people or religion, I'm sure Bananabrain can tell you that Jews would snob other Jews that are not even in the same class too. Today Jewish people are really struggling to keep hold of the cultrual background actually since quite a while ago, they are intergrating with ease! It's more of a rich on rich problem which Im sure afew government taxations can sort out, but they are too busy making money too.

[Tao_Equus]

Aphcheristo Postmaster,

The point I originaly attempted to make was that religions are easy meat for the the power hungry. And I dont mean money hungry tho that does factor in too usually. I make no distinction between the religions in this regard. Further I contended that the nature of organised faith facilitates the manipulation of the masses, to hold power, and that this is no accident. There is a simple core message in Christs teaching: Love thy Neighbour. The rest is just window dressing put there for various reasons, not least to keep church leaders in power.(Bare in mind church leaders were the political masters through most of history and in Islam this is still the case).

I am unconcerned about people seeking wealth, as long as it is not 'at any cost'. What I am really talking about are those that keep alive false divisions in our common humanity to keep their power base. Those that start wars. And those that preach hate. Most people dont have time to think, even if they do have the inclination, and they passively do as the powerful wish. In this sense the term 'flock' is spot on.

I'm too tired now to think or type so i'l leave it at that for now.

Kalanichta filo mou

TE

[Postmaster]

giasou file! I just want to add that I went through a period of being a just alittle anti-semitic, no offense Bananabrain I'm out of the phase now. But it had something to do with this guy, Henry Kissenger who I see responsible for the separtaion of my parents home land (Cyprus) and the cause of many deaths. My anti-semitism wasn't based on racial hate, it was based on the discust that some have acted and still act as oppressive as the Nazis (just like the Jews viewed the Nazis).

The 1587 Missing Cypriots used to be 1619 but they were discovered in mass graves, in Turkey or the Turkish occupied side of Cyprus. This number doesn't included the counted lives lost during the Turkish invasion of Cyprus but DOES include innocent civilians such as women and children.

[Postmaster]

Is it possible that there is a sterelization process in nature. Although people that are vicitims of atrocity are innocent, maybe some people are more prone to crimes who are more likely to commit the same one at someother point even through the future family tree. Even though it can't be proven it's quite plausible I think but I say this with no disrespect to any vicitims of such crimes, just a hypothesis and that all it takes to avoid such process is to change the way you think.

[Postmaster]

It could also be possible to avoid such harmful process simply by changing the way you think. There is cases of people avoiding harmful situations with foresight, where it by dreams, premenition or intuition. The bible (old and new testament) documents in its scriptures of such cases and there are countless of modern day instances too. If this gift exists is it only to a select lucky few or is it the mistake of people who do not try to harness it by dwelling in devious ways. My point is God cares and loves us and does not wish bad on us. It is a negative view not to recognise this, that he didn't leave us with the right means for prosperity.