Death and Dying

[Penguin]

Although it is not a nice thing to talk about I am not afraid to admit that I am a bit scared & anxious of dying but I am even more scared of those close to me dying firstly. I couldn't imagine life without them, my wife, my mum and dad etc and thinking about something happening to them just devastates me. I think we are all part of something that either the human brain and science can't comprehend or that it is something so simple that everybody is overlooking it. Whatever, I would like to know what you think (briefly if possible) what happens after somebody has died. As for me, I still don't know really. Sometimes I agree with elements of Buddhism then I change my mind and think perhaps Jesus will be there or God or perhaps it's just blackness and there's nothing, just peace.
One of my first childhood memories was when I was 2 or 3 I guess. I remember feeling the roughness of my dads beard and crying as he picked me up, cuddled me, and pressed me against his face. If I try and remember before this there is nothing, just blackness, because the brain is still developing. This is the difference, as upon death the brain is fully developed and ready to experience the end of the life and that is what scares me a bit. It seems as I get older I can remember back further so could this be because my conciousness is coming closer and closer to ending and starting afresh again and there is a magnetism towards this? Many thanks.

[wil]

You've touched on one of the main reasons that popularize religion...their concept of life after death...there reassurance that it isn't over, when it is over on this plane...that thru some chant, good works, or allegiance to ... you may obtain salvation, glory, access to all there is....

Truth for me is we find it in our hearts. In our minds or with our faith we have a belief...based on some criteria or teaching...but we will all find out when the time comes...

Eckardt Tolle's (the Power of Now guy) book 'A New Earth' talks about how we possess things, as with our parents and friends, we internalize them, they become part of us. So when they are gone we miss them...hundreds of thousands die in Rowanda...most of us remain unaffected. 400 in car accidents around the US daily...how many more due to cancer and heart disease...but those that we have made a connection with...those that we possess when we lose that connection...we grieve...

When we can't find a favorite ring, or wreck our car, or lose our paycheck...tis a loss, and we often act out. But when we lose a loved one, it makes us want to know that while we grieve they are better...makes is wonder about our own mortality...and seek a concept that soothes our grief...

[truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Penguin

Although it is not a nice thing to talk about I am not afraid to admit that I am a bit scared & anxious of dying but I am even more scared of those close to me dying firstly. I couldn't imagine life without them, my wife, my mum and dad etc and thinking about something happening to them just devastates me. I think we are all part of something that either the human brain and science can't comprehend or that it is something so simple that everybody is overlooking it. Whatever, I would like to know what you think (briefly if possible) what happens after somebody has died. As for me, I still don't know really. Sometimes I agree with elements of Buddhism then I change my mind and think perhaps Jesus will be there or God or perhaps it's just blackness and there's nothing, just peace.
One of my first childhood memories was when I was 2 or 3 I guess. I remember feeling the roughness of my dads beard and crying as he picked me up, cuddled me, and pressed me against his face. If I try and remember before this there is nothing, just blackness, because the brain is still developing. This is the difference, as upon death the brain is fully developed and ready to experience the end of the life and that is what scares me a bit. It seems as I get older I can remember back further so could this be because my conciousness is coming closer and closer to ending and starting afresh again and there is a magnetism towards this? Many thanks.

Hey Penguin.

Life after death. Hmmmm.

I used to be worried about dying. What got me over that is learning to enjoy life as I am living right now. Not to say that you aren't, but I think it is the confusion of living that makes us scared of death. If you haven't lived your life to the fullest extent of how you want and need to truly live it then you become overly concerned with the end of a life that has hardly begun. Perhaps you've made some accomplishments that you are really proud of. Great. But there is probably some other stuff that you really want to explore - for whatever reason you feel you can't because of some boundary that you have placed on your existence.

For the most part, the teachings of Jesus have made me feel best about how to live my life. But being Christian does not define my life nor am I confined to the teachings of Jesus. What makes me feel most alive and free is embracing diffrent religious perspectives as a world unit. That may not work for you but it certainly fulfills me; and that is the point. This is what makes me feel like I am living, so should the time comes when this body will fail, I am confident that the energy within me will live on through reincarnation, rebirth, heaven, or hell - wherever my energy is needed. I personally believe that you know, as you live, where your journey will continue once the body fails.
The world views right now are reincarnation, rebirth, nirvana, heaven, hell, new paradise on earth for the good ones, and ceasing to exist all together (If there are others, I'm not aware). While some views says other views are wrong, I think that they are all possible. That is the beauty of the free will and the ability to reason that we all have. If you want to get to heaven, Christianity will show you the way. If you have the idea that you may have been here before, you probably have. If you don't even want to get up in the morning, you're probably on your way to ceasing to exist. If you live in the fires of anger and confusion and disgust everyday, you are probably burning in hell right now. And so on, and so on.

[Tien Kou]

Hi all, i know this is late but i aint been on the web for a while but i feel i had to contribute to this thread no matter how much folks laugh. I practise chi kung, and one practise that takes place in the particular style of chi kung i practise involves having a good conversation, or an argument that you cant win with the master. One day, my master and i were discussing death. After a long and heated discussion, he concluded things by saying, "I don't believe in gravity" and jumping. needless to say, he returned to the ground.
Life, and afterwards, is but leap after leap in the dark. we can never know what lies ahead and so all we can do is live life as best we can and hope that we fall the way to which we are inclined.

[flowperson]

Having recently lost my father, who lived to a ripe age of 90 and possessed all of his mental abilities up to the end, I believe that describing death as a dark passage is the best that can be done.

One second the presence that you have known for years is here, and then in a blink it goes away and is somewhere else. The presence is an energy, and if one believes in the principle of the conservation of energy, then his spirit and essence still continues somewhere else but not where I can know him again, except perhaps when I join him.

I've watched pets die, and it's the same thing. A part of your life that you have known well goes away and can't be recovered because its gone behind some barrier where we are not allowed to go. When the departed is not known and loved, the separation is not as intense. The departed may be objectified and we say, "Oh well, too bad, we all have to go sometime." We become increasingly desensitized to death over time because we have all been exposed to it's images in the media for so long.

But when the connections of love are firm, then you KNOW that the presence is still there somewhere. Contrast this with the way we all come into the world after living in a safe warm place for months, cognitively unaware. When we become aware we are, if fortunate, led thru the perils of the world by loving parents. But our beginning is also through a dark passage where, at some unknown time a presence is attached to us. In the dark passage of death, our presence is detached from us.

So life begins in a passage of chaotic darkness and ends in a passage of chaotic darkness, and from time immemorial the darkness has scared us, because we are warm blooded loving animals.

Birth, death, rebirth. It is why religions were created by us. It is the basic truth of the universe. And our threefold process is entirely reflective of every other entity of being that is accessible to our seeing and understanding.

We do not know yet if memories, emotions, and love are unique to our species, but there are lots of clues now that they aren't. We may just be the highest expression of living that has yet existed here. That doesn't make us all less unique, but more responsible to each nother each second that we are walking around and breathing.

flow....

[flowperson]

Ummm... almost forgot. I'm a huge fan of the Bill and Ted films, especially their Bogus Journey where they become friends with death and totally destroy the forces of evil, because they are, "the wild stallions".

Rent it, you'll enjoy.

flow....

[taijasi]

Penguin,

I hope the mods won't mind me linking to a recent post on the Magick forum, because it addresses the subject of death directly, and the relationship which I believe can exist between ourselves and the deceased. This is in the context of Harry Potter, so if you are familiar with those movies & stories, Penguin, it will be easy to understand ...

One of my earliest experiences, which I remember with utmost clarity, also occurred at exactly the age you mentioned, Penguin. My parents were not home, having gone to a dinner party, so I was staying across the street with a neighbor. The kids had gone to bed, me included, so it must have been somewhere around 8 or 9pm. We were all asleep.

What I remember was as clear and as "real" as things we do physically, so I must politely disagree with anyone who says, "ah, you were just dreaming." Of course I was dreaming! But others who have had an experience like this, whether in childhood or in adulthood, know good & well that the experience is exactly what it seems like - an out-of-body experience!

Looking back, I would guess that had this experience not become a frightening and unpleasant one ... I most likely would not have remembered it, so this tells us something about time, and memory, and the way this relates to the brain in connection with out-of-body travel. If I hadn't become frightened, I do not think anything unusual would have occurred, but I'm glad it did, because I consider the experience of great value, these 30 years later ...

What happened was, I went floating across the front yard at the neighbors, and the first thing which is bright in my memory was the lamppost, an electric streetlamp, about 8 feet high, which shone forth with absolute beauty and brilliance in the astral plane. I would say I went floating right past it, very close, and I certainly noticed it (!), but it didn't strike me as odd in any way, nor did I stop to admire it. This suggests that it wasn't unusual at all, and that the kinds of things I was used to seeing, even as a young kid, must have been marvellous (by earthly standards), indeed!

I floated past the lamp, moving swiftly but not that fast ... and went right across my own front yard in a direct line for my bedroom window. I was not thinking of moving, per se, or doing anything whatsoever to try to move. It wasn't like I was swimming, nor was I stretched out like Superman. I was pretty much just floating, as if you might be standing there and suddenly you became lighter than air, then got swept along on a current of wind.

I do recall moving through my own bedroom window, and then I found myself sort of hovering over the edge of my parents' bed. In all the years since then, as well as right here, right now, I have always known with absolute clarity and certainty what it was I was doing, or trying to do. I went floating from across the street, straight to my parents bedside, in one, fairly swift motion, because this was what I did probably every night (as do all children), to "get my parents out of bed" and visit, travel, play, etc. ... on the astral plane.

The entire floating experience, from the moment I left my body until the moment I have hovering in my parents' bedroom, might have been 5 seconds ... I can't be sure. But I do know what happened next, because that's why I remember this experience! I got sick! I only vaguely recall that when I didn't find my parents in their bed, it very much upset me - terrified, perhaps - and so I immediately woke up (yanked back to my body in a split second, which has probably happend to us all more times than we can count!). I do not know exactly why I got sick, but it could have been because I came back so quickly, or possibly even as just a direct, instinctual response to the fright. Either way, I was upset, and cried, and I think the neighbor may have called my parents ... but I remember going home with them some time afterward - and certainly they knew that I had been sick. No big deal, really, but I don't think I ever mentioned my out-of-body experience to them.

~~~~~~~~~

How does this relate to death? Simple. So-called `near-death experiences,' or NDEs, as well as `out-of-body experiences,' or OOBEs, are often classed together. They share many details in common, first & foremost, the definite, lucid awareness of being out of one's body. Sometimes there even a direct perception of one's physical body, usually from an angle above, as one hovers - and perhaps watches doctors trying to resuscitate one, in the case of an NDE. Either way, people often describe movement in such terms as floating, flying, or falling ... and of course, the proverbial "light at the end of the tunnel" is a prevalent detail in the case of NDEs.

This is by no means the only OOBE I have ever had, although it is one of the most lucid, and is the earliest that I recall with such clarity. I knew in my brain consciousness, from that moment on, the truth (in simplest details) about other planes of awareness, and other states of consciousness. Everything else, even including the most detailed explanations in esoteric books on this subject, is just elucidation.

When we die, we survive the death of the body. Soon afterwards, we experience a "life review," during which time we are shown the true, inner sigificance of everthing that has ever happened to us during the present lifetime. This is shown to us by our own Soul, and we see it "from above," so to speak. We understand why everything happened to us, why things didn't always go the way we might have wanted them to, and we see the true nature of the various relationships we have experienced. We see how our tiny little lives influenced and impacted the lives of everyone around us ... and vice versa. We see that actually, the way we have lived our life did have an effect - even upon the rest of the people in this world, every single one.

And I deeply believe, in my innermost being, that it does not matter whether we have believed in rebirth (reincarnation) or not. We are also shown how our present lifetime fits into the context of a short series of lives ... perhaps a string of three, or seven, or ten. The goals that we had in the lifetime that is over, are revealed as being important, but of secondary signficance in comparison with the much greater objectives of the being we call `our Soul.' And so our lives are judged, not just based on whether or not we accomplished all of these goals, but also according to how much we progressed toward the greater objectives of the Soul.

Ultimately, during this "life review" (which may last several hours, even days, I have read) ... we are shown the true nature of the law of karma, or Cause and Effect, which Christ speaks of directly when He says, "As ye sow, so shall ye reap." Many people are frightened by these words, but the Lord of Love was not trying to scare small children, or even to make adults cower and scream. He was attempting to show us that for every act of good that we do, so likewise, good will return. And for every selfish or evil act, so too will be the result. This is true, spiritual "Justice."

So after our life's review, and possibly a brief period of unconsciousness (just like sleep), we awaken on the 'astral plane,' which the Catholics call Purgatory, the Hindus call kamaloka, and the Tibetan Buddhists call the bardo. This is the world of our dreams, where we have traveled out of the body during all the years of our physical lifetime, during sleep. It is also where our aura can be seen, even during life, by those with clairvoyance.

Usually, the first few experiences will last several hours, several days, or even years, and they can be rather hellish. Yes, they are likely to be frightening, for all of us. Christians are treated no differently here. Jesus does not sweep down, and say to us, "You are special, you are different, and you do not have to go through this." If we pray to Him, we are very likely to receive a response, and it might come in different forms. Most likely He will not come to us directly, and there is a very good reason for this. Many people do not apply good, simple logic, or if they did, they would realize that Jesus cannot express Himself properly in these lowest, darkest worlds of human experience. He has nothing in His own being which corresponds to this imperfect aspect of our nature.

And so what he will do is send a representative - someone who is very pure of heart, pure of mind, and spiritually awake, yet who is still undergoing their own transition into the higher worlds. It may be someone who, like us, has recently died - yet who has been in the astral world a bit longer, and has already moved past this part of it. Or it may be a disciple, someone like ourselves, who is out of the body during sleep, and who has been trained by the Master on how to operate - lending assistance to people (like us) who have recently crossed over. Or it may even be an angel, one who also serves the Master, and who will come to comfort us. But regardless, and even if you do not pray to Jesus, if you will but look to the Light, and reach out inwardly - through prayer or meditation - to the thoughts, or visualizations, of a being that you consider Holy, you will be answered, even in this lowest astral world.

This is because God's Laws apply to all of us, and Christians are no different than Hindus, and Muslims are no different than Pagains ... in the sight of the Lord. Good actions meet with pleasant "reward," and bad actions meet with unpleasant consequences. We teach this to every child and we profess to know this as adults, yet strangely enough, there are many people who somehow wish to be exempt. They are not. To quote George Harrison (of the Beatles), who I am listening to right now:

"The lord loves the one that loves the lord
And the law says if you don’t give,
Then you don’t get loving

Now the lord helps those that help themselves
And the law says whatever you do
Is going to come right back on you"

This is no less true during life, but sometimes we do not realize that we are facing karma, and so we think life is unfair. It is because we do not understand, and if we did, it would be clear why everything happens, good or bad. The Soul shows us this after death, but then we must move through the astral world just like this one ... relying upon what we have been taught, and we must do this alone, at first, which forces us to call upon our inner courage, and causes us to be resourceful, and creative.

Unless we have been very wicked, our unpleasant experiences after death will be over very soon. It may seem like awhile, but it will likely only be hours, days, or perhaps weeks, if we have been very naughty indeed. This is not punishment. This is the same thing happens if you throw a ball against a wall. It bounces back. You do not throw a basketball against a brick wall and expect it to be absorbed. No "magic being" is going to come along and steal it, either, or make it disappear. That isn't how life works. People are very superstitious, however, and sometimes they wish this were true. They will learn, however, that God has set up the Universe so that life is fair for everyone ... and if it were any other way, we would sooner or later complain of injustice. We only complain now, because we do not see how fair it really is, and how/why it must be this way!

So unless we have been a murderer, or a criminal, or perhaps a politican (okay, that's a joke ), we shall move quickly through the "muckiness" of the lower astral, and the world around us begins to brighten incredibly. We interact with others ... other "dead people," sometimes our friends or family - when they are asleep, and dreaming, and we may even be fortunate enough to meet other beings, such as angels. But gradually, day by day, we are moving closer to the Divine, to "God above." If we do acts of GOOD, and if we seek to help others, we shall have marvellous, wonderful experiences (!) ... and in time, it will be apparent to us that we are preparing for another transition.

Our experiences have become increasingly pleasant, maybe even almost blissful ... until finally, as the whole world we have been starts to fall away, we shall see our aura expand, and we become free of that last little portion of our astral body, and it falls away. Even our astral body (called by some the "spirit body," although this is a mistake), is not who we really are. And so we enter a much, much higher world, and by this time we do not have any outward contact with the material, physical world that we used to live in, all those years ago ....

Instead, we enter a world that is truly Heaven-like, and this world has many, many names in the various religions of the world. It is no wonder Christians call it `Heaven,' but even here, we do not "live forever." We may be there for several hundred years, but consider - this is beyond all conceptions of `time.' There are no watches, no clocks, and probably no calendars the way we have been used to seeing them. We are with all our friends and family, and in fact, we are all united with a considerable degree of cooperation and understanding. In the Christian worship service, this level of the afterlife is hinted at when the Congregation sings "And give us a foretaste of the feast to come ..." (it means many things, this is part of it)

In the final stage of life after death, we get a brief glimpse of our future life, then we descend again into incarnation and are born again, as a tiny infant. We live another life, during which we advance (and do not simply repeat things). After about age 21, in each new life, we begin to truly press forward ... and there is an end to this. We do, after our last human life, "return to God." Every religion teaches this; they just say it in different way.

Love and Light,

taijasi

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Penguin

Although it is not a nice thing to talk about I am not afraid to admit that I am a bit scared & anxious of dying but I am even more scared of those close to me dying firstly. I couldn't imagine life without them, my wife, my mum and dad etc and thinking about something happening to them just devastates me. I think we are all part of something that either the human brain and science can't comprehend or that it is something so simple that everybody is overlooking it. Whatever, I would like to know what you think (briefly if possible) what happens after somebody has died. As for me, I still don't know really. Sometimes I agree with elements of Buddhism then I change my mind and think perhaps Jesus will be there or God or perhaps it's just blackness and there's nothing, just peace.
One of my first childhood memories was when I was 2 or 3 I guess. I remember feeling the roughness of my dads beard and crying as he picked me up, cuddled me, and pressed me against his face. If I try and remember before this there is nothing, just blackness, because the brain is still developing. This is the difference, as upon death the brain is fully developed and ready to experience the end of the life and that is what scares me a bit. It seems as I get older I can remember back further so could this be because my conciousness is coming closer and closer to ending and starting afresh again and there is a magnetism towards this? Many thanks.

I have a story to tell. It's a good one. Just coming back from the Middle East and South East Asia in the early 90s, I saw some things, bad things...then I came home for a tour of duty, only to be told that my grandmother was on her last legs, and I'd better get to the hospital. So dad and I went.

There was pandimonium in the room. Daughters were panicking, Husbands didn't quite know what to do, machinery was failing and my grandmother was suffering badly. Medical people were scrambling to try to fix things, and I looked at my dad, and he looked at me...

I said, "there is no order here, and they are frightening her to death". He said, "fix the problem, son".

So, I climbed in bed with my grandmother, and cradled her. (she was 84). I just thumped gently on her chest (lots of phlegm build up, which the machines could not take away fast enough), and asked her if she wanted intervention (she had signed an affidavit stating she wanted no means of recsucitation done on her). Man she was adamite NO! I said, "ok, is there anyone here for you?" She looked around the room, and smiled, such a beautiful smile. "Owen and Rose are here!"

"Waiting for you?" She smiled and nodded vigorously. "Then, what are you waiting for? Maybe it's time to go home..."

She looked at all of us, then at me, then her eyes told us she let go. But she had a smile on her face, and the laugh lines around her eyes were creased.

The panic in the room stopped. The doctors and nurses stopped, the family stopped. I turned to the one doctor and asked why the monitor still showed heart action (no real rhythm, just defibulation). He said the heart is a muscle that will not quit until the end.

The doctors took my dad and I into a seperate room from the rest (while they said their goodbyes in grandma's ear). They said "you know people sign away rescusitation by artificial means, until it is really happening, then they panic, and want us to do everything we can to bring them back...you two came in and stopped the panic...how and why were you able to do that?"

We said, "that is what she wanted". And I added, "She had people waiting for her (husband and sister)."

Now I didn't see anyone. But I did see in her eyes recognition of people we couldn't see. And I sensed...something, so it was ok.

One of my uncles came by later, and asked me how I could be so calm and cool about death?

I told him, because it isn't the end, just the beginning. And for a moment, I understood everything. Now, I can't tell you what I understood. Only that for a moment everything was clear as crystal. Now, I have vague recollection.

Of course that was over a dozen years ago. But, my friend, I don't think there is anything to worry about. Kind of like being born actually. For nine or so months we're content to be in the world we are in, then our world begins to collapse around us, We're queezed and pushed out of our life, and the next thing we know, we're in the arms of someone cooing over us, and we're warm, and there is love, and we start over again (bottom of the next ladder).

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

[Tao_Equus]

Very nice story Quahom

[wil]

Namaste Q, What a blessing...wonderful story.

[Dondi]

Excellent story, Q. I like your analogy about being born again (no pun intended).

[cavalier]

Everyone should read that, thanks for sharing it.

[truthseeker]

Definately warmed my heart. Thanks, Quahom

[soulatom]

I popped in here for a look as I am usually just a "lurker" and found these stories refreshing and real. As a person who has faced terminal disease for the last four years I have given alot of thought to the idea of death and perception of dying. As an added thought to this I would like to take it into the area of what everyone thinks is the reason for taking a birth in the first place? Why are we created? Cheers.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by soulatom

I popped in here for a look as I am usually just a "lurker" and found these stories refreshing and real. As a person who has faced terminal disease for the last four years I have given alot of thought to the idea of death and perception of dying. As an added thought to this I would like to take it into the area of what everyone thinks is the reason for taking a birth in the first place? Why are we created? Cheers.

Not quite certain what is meant by "taking a birth in the first place"...Do you mean why accept being born, or why would we take life from one before before it begins?...

v/r

Q