Death and Dying

[soulatom]

[Ouote]
In the final stage of life after death, we get a brief glimpse of our future life, then we descend again into incarnation and are born again, as a tiny infant. We live another life, during which we advance (and do not simply repeat things). After about age 21, in each new life, we begin to truly press forward ... and there is an end to this. We do, after our last human life, "return to God." Every religion teaches this; they just say it in different way.

Love and Light,

taijasi
[/quote]
As in the quote from Taijasi, I keep returning to the idea that if we return to Heaven and God, and we were originally created by God, why would we need to learn anything, be reborn? If at the point of transition is truth is revealed would that not be enough? I know I sound lame here because I am struggling with the different ideologies and perception of the ultimate Godhead. I am trying to reach around behind the cloak of the perception of God and fathom the purpose of creation in the first place.

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Taijasi

In the final stage of life after death, we get a brief glimpse of our future life, then we descend again into incarnation and are born again, as a tiny infant. We live another life, during which we advance (and do not simply repeat things). After about age 21, in each new life, we begin to truly press forward ... and there is an end to this. We do, after our last human life, "return to God." Every religion teaches this; they just say it in different way.

Originally Posted by SoulAtom

As in the quote from Taijasi, I keep returning to the idea that if we return to Heaven and God, and we were originally created by God, why would we need to learn anything, be reborn? If at the point of transition is truth is revealed would that not be enough? I know I sound lame here because I am struggling with the different ideologies and perception of the ultimate Godhead. I am trying to reach around behind the cloak of the perception of God and fathom the purpose of creation in the first place.

SoulAtom,

I think it is precisely this question which any of us should be asking, if we are bringing logic to bear upon the idea/possibility of reincarnation. For me, the answer is not easy, because although I think I have grasped the basics, I could never begin to explain it. The problem comes from trying to take too literal an approach (or visualization) on the one hand, or having to fall back on pure symbolism on the other. And so I try to settle on the middle ground ...

The real answer is one of the Greater Mysteries of Being, and only if we have begun to familiarize ourself with the lesser mysteries might we come - in this or some future lifetime - to solve the Mystery of Identity. In the Ageless Wisdom Tradition I believe in, this is actually a secret of the 5th Initiation, such that only an Askeha Adept (Sanskrit a-sekha, `no more to learn') would be qualified to properly answer. And his answer would be gauged very carefully for each of us, according to our current degree of knowledge, understanding and experience.

Still, there are teachings that are intended for aspirants to the Mysteries, and which also suffice both for disciples and for Initiates, and over the course of hundreds of pages of explanation, one can learn much about how we evolve from Spirit ... down into and through the worlds of form, only to rise again out of closest identification with matter - until eventually and inevitably we yearn deeply from within to once again abide, increasingly and then finally eternally - with God.

The simplest answer I could give, both as I have come to understand things as well as what I think we may safely infer from logical necessity - is that in the original, primordial state of Union with God, the nature of our consciousness is indeed Pure and Holy, and is utterly innocent ... yet we are not characterized by the Wisdom, Self-Knowledge, and Perfect Awareness which truly belong only to God(s). [I would pluralize this word, because imho, our conception of Deity is somewhat childish, and we forget that the Heavens are literally FULL of Divine Beings, infinite numbers of which properly qualify as `gods' according to the properties we usually assign that word. Ultimately, all issue forth from ONE, yet our relationship to THAT Being is as a single grain of sand as compared to all the Earth.]

If we observe a candle for awhile, we will see that sparks occasionally arise within the flame, and these exist as sparks only for a split second, then resolve once again into their source flame. In the wink of an eye, this is a beautiful symbolism for our independent existence, relative to the Parent Flame, that first Being whom we call `God.' But the symbolism breaks down in helping to explain the true relationship, because the sparks are always being observed from the outside in. God always knows His creature from the inside out, thus we should be considering how the Parent Flame truly relates to the individual spark(s), and not vice versa.

For Deity, there is no separation - and there can never be. While existing in the Transcendent state (always a relative state, the Manifest vs. the Absolute), there is no duality ... the familiar question of the One and the Many. How can the many arise from the One?

It can only occur, if a temporary isolation, a seeming separation, is allowed to occur. And while we might be inclined at this point to ask Why? - I think we must refrain. We must remember that prior to this separation, this sending forth from Deity ... we did not exist at all (!) - save in that condition of at-one-ment with Parent God. But it was not a condition of being WITH God ... is WAS (being) God!

So here is the imagery that has always burned within me: That of a Fiery Being, an entity made of Living Flame, Who long, long ago reached into his own heart, the very core of His Being (yes, what an oversimplification - I know, but this is all I know) ... and withdrew His hand, opening it, and with an outflow of Divine Breath (the activity of another Aspect of this Deity), sent us forth as individual Sparks of His OWN Being. This is not the Wisdom of a `New Age,' this is the Truth of ALL AGES - for it is the Universal process of Cyclical Evolution ... whereby Spirit takes upon itself FORM, voluntarily, in order to develop, then perfect, some (as yet un-perfected) aspect of its potential Being.

The difference between that Spark of Divinity anchored deep(est) within us as the Ground of our Being - and GODHEAD - is that the latter represents the Spark AFTER it has completed ALL CYCLES of Divine Evolution that are intended ... throughout all the various Kingdoms of Evolution, which are like mileposts on this vast Journey of Becoming! There are involutionary kingdoms, some without any name that would really make any sense to us, yet they are characterized by what we would call entropic expression, in that the Spark is "falling" into form, into generation, and thus is moving away from the Primordial state of original Identity with (as) the Divine. We are the Divine Prodigal, leaving the Father's Kingdom (as instructed), turning our back (symbolically) and going forth.

The point of densest expression, wherein we are actually farthest away from Deity, is the mineral kingdom. The life of the base metal(s) ... is the incarnation of a "group soul," where nothing like Individuality as we know it can be said to exist. Yet who will deny that the life of the crystal is a measureable and a beautiful thing! Already, the imprisoned Spirit (which has nothing of what we call "self-consciousness") is beginning to dimly awaken to and respond to its surroundings. The Ideal of Perfection for this kingdom is the Diamond, with many of the precious stones representing the approximation of this Ideal. And yet the Spark itself is truly slumbering relative to the consciousness of the mineral. It is as yet utterly unresponsive and unaware of itself, since the focus of its development is worlds away - at the opposite pole of experience, so to speak.

Clearly it has nothing to do with distance, but it more a question of within vs. without. It is like saying that there is some motion and activity at the farthest edges of the Solar System. If Pluto represents outermost form (in this case, the rock we can hold), then its stirring life is reaching toward the heart of the Sun (the Spark) yet only dimly affects the planet Neptune, and then only part of the time. The rock has no clue that it was originally born from the heart of the sun, and that its innermost essence eternally abides there.

The group soul is not an individual, but it can definitely be considering as gathering or reaping the results of its mass incarnations through the mineral kingdom (over vast millions of years of SLOW evolution). The process shifts to the Vegetable Kingdom in the next cycle (a chain or ring of Seven Worlds, only 1 - or sometimes 3 - of which will sometimes occupy physical matter). Again, the cycle is vast, but moving through the various cereals and grasses, we move up through the plants, forests, flowers and fruit-bearing trees ... and this is like shifting to the planet Neptune, reaching toward Uranus. This activity of the life (and the developing consciousness) is growing steadily closer to the Sun, the Spark.

Through the Animal Kingdom, we move from the herd, to the pack, to the domesticated animals, and finally into one of the Individualizing lines - mentioned as the cat, dog, elephant and monkey. I believe the horse, rabbit, dolphin, certain birds, and obviously several other species represent highly evolved animals, as well. By this point, the Group Soul has grown smaller and smaller, splitting off as through budding until it has approximated what will be the future Individual Soul. Notice how a flock of birds moves in unison as it flies across the sky. The birds do not move independently; rather, the action (impulse) of the group soul can be seen, as the turn here & there across the sky.

Let's see ... how about a Part II (can't be helped) ...

[taijasi]

After many repeated incarnations through the individualizing lines, it is through the natural process of exposure to the higher vibrations of humans - especially kind, loving, and intelligent humans - which precipitates the passage into the 4th Kingdom, Humanity ... via Individualization. This is like having come to reside upon Uranus, and preparing for the move to Saturn. But as yet, there is no true Individual Soul present ... there is only the collection of lower vehicles (phsyical form, emotional body, and as-yet-embryonic mind, or mental body). Animals, however evolved, do not think as such, nor do they have the same type of "self-consciousness" as we do. The Spark hovers above in Highest Heaven - here represented by the Sun, and certainly the animal (Uranus) is closer than the mineral, in point of evolution, but still far, far from being able to directly respond, or to coordinate itself with that Spark. And thus an Intermediary is called in.

The Christ principle, or SOUL, which is taught Universally in all religions, does not exist for the animal, save in future potential. It is as an unfertilized ovum, purely germinal, and is, for all intents & purposes, absent - though its PROTOTYPE ever abides as the 2nd Aspect of the Parent Spark, the Individualized Flame. That FLAME, however, cannot connect directly with the animal that is ready to individualize. There is far too much of a gap in consciousness - marked in this symbolism by planets Vulcan, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn! Therefore, what must occur is the temporary loaning to us of our ensouling "Middle Principle," which bridges us (eventually) to the Parent Spark.

Thus we have a first, or Adamic lifetime, which is the first "truly human," though we are as yet - like the animals, in terms of where our consciousness is centered. Very, very few such examples exist among Humanity at this point even close to this state. The spiritual door was esoterically "closed" some several years ago, in Atlantis I believe, and won't open again until a future cycle, upon another planet. Too wide a gap in the spiritual development of the "highest" Human (Jesus of Nazareth) and least, is not efficient. Too great a conflict would occur, and progress would be slowed immeasurably, while true disasters would ensue.

Thus, the door is closed, we begin to develop through many hundreds of incarnations as primitive humanity ... but again, just as before, we are reaching closer and closer toward the next stage in our Spiritual growth - here represented by Jupiter (this is an arbitrary symbolism, btw). But the shift to Saturn is a momentous one. And at least this portion of the symbolism is appropriate. Saturn (sa-tan) is the planet of tests and trials, whereby we pass the stage of greatest FELT isolation, or separation from God ... on the way back to Godhead. In terms of point of development, the farthest point was the mineral kingdom, as can be seen in the imagery of the planet Pluto - relative to the Sun. But even the animal does not, as yet, ask `Who am I?'

WE may ask this question because of the princple of Ahamkara, the "I-making" nature of our consciousness, which is imparted to us spiritually at the moment of Individualization. The SOUL which comes to us is literally a different evolutionary entity altogether ... and is itself the product, or the `Graduate' of a prior cycle of Spiritual evolution. It is the SUCCESS of an earlier `Humanity.' But it is not perfect, and in order to advance upon the Path it voluntarily takes upon itself the incredible Responsibility (a true sacrifice) of Guiding us, and Guarding our progress, through the Human Kingdom.

If we are like Saturn at this point, then our SOUL PROPER is like Jupiter, in terms of the distinct entity which has come to impart our "I-ness" to us (a distinct and definite principle of consciousness, our Intellect, Spiritually considered). Clearly Jupiter is greater, and in fact, we ourselves will never actually take the place (in this symbolism) of Jupiter. Instead, we will gradually awaken to the magnetic influence of our Superior, and we shall come to ally ourselves with this HIGHER principle - rather than with the ensouling life of our bodies (lower mind, emotions, vitalized flesh, shown by Uranus, Neptune & Pluto respectively). It is, in a sense, a form of Identifying, but Jupiter in this case only represents our Highest Spiritual Aspect, the Parent Spark within, above, or hidden in the Sun.

Relative to ourself, the SOUL is vastly more advanced spiritually, and already it could be said to know itself as a miniature Sun, the Flame has already long ago burst forth - and it is ABLAZE with Glory, deep within. Yet its own Journey is far from completion, and thus by rendering us the Greatest Service of all - that of SACRIFICE (of its energy, its effort, its patience, and its FOCUS of attention - which IS our "I-ness") ... in this way, the Soul attains, and so do we. Yet not without ARDUOUS effort (entailing pain & suffering) do we advance, and for that reason Earth's Masters are called `the Graduates of painful endeavor.'

Part of the secret here lies with Planetary Karma, or that of the Demiurge. Our is an `imperfect God,' in the sense of "Him in Whom we live and move and have our Being." Before long, however, this status shall change, and conditions on Planet Earth will "improve" dramatically, both materially and spiritually.

When we have allied ourselves fully enough with Jupiter (esoterically this is the 4th Initiation, the Renunciation or `Crucifixion') ... we do not shift to that planet. Rather, Jupiter - the Individual SOUL - has fulfilled its work, and IT LEAVES US. No longer are we moved by the lesser nature of Saturn, or the "outer" planets. Our consciousness has gradually been awakening to the next three Inner Planets as we came to identify with the SOUL, and this is the Spiritual Triad - itself an immediate reflection of the Triune Spark, Will, Love-Wisdom, and Intelligent Activity. Respectively, these would be planets Mars, Venus and Earth, where Earth corresponds to Higher Mind, Venus to the Christ within, and Mars equates to Will. But we are still far, far from the consciousness of the Spark.

At best, we may approach the Highest Worlds, yet even a Christ has not quite completed His evolution. He must become a Buddha, esoterically speaking, and then must pass through the Refusal Initiation - highly symbolic, because it suggests that finally, after perfecting all that was Divinely intended of his Spiritual capacities (as we know them) - such a being passes to the Way of Higher Evolution, never to return to Generation in these worlds. Until then, even as `graduated Humans,' we will be drawn back, as were our Souls, ONCE MORE to assist a future Human evolution. The sacrifice is great, yet we DO NOT DESCEND below the Higher Mental Sphere - thus, for the Soul, SUFFERING as we understand it IS NON-EXISTENT. Conflict exists. Growth exists. Increased capacity to repond to Spirit proceeds ... yet none of what we call sin, or evil. Only a measure of "error," but even that is "judgment-free," so to speak.

So, from a totally non-self-conscious existence, even PRIOR to the mineral kingdom, then up through the kingdoms to Humanity, we have developed the Spark within - not in & of itself, but rather, relative to or IN RESPONSE TO our environment (and everyone/everything in it). THIS we call consciousness, or basically, THE SOUL. But with the 4th Initiation, even the Soul leaves us, because by then we are very close to solving/understanding the true Mystery of our Being. I would submit, on good Faith, that this has everything to do with our actual NON-duality at the level of God's Flame-Spark consciousness, and that an Asekha Adept knows himself on these highest levels as ONE with GOD. He even knows this as a PRESENT condition, but He still shares a (voluntary) karma - or actually a Dharma, a responsibility - relative to his parent Planet, as well as neighboring schemes, and even the System as a Whole. Thus His Journey is not quite over.

The Prodigal is almost back to the Father's House, and Christ & Buddha represented for us - for all intents and purposes - what that return can look like (for each of us, and THIS is the true Covenant, the Promise of our Redemption and Liberation from the necessary cycles of lesser existence). But even they were still one step removed from their spiritual Perfection, as far as the Spark is concerned. Their shift is like a move from the Trinary Divine Consciousness of Mars, Venus and Earth ... to Mercury, Vulcan and the Spark itself. For LONG AGES will they have identified with the Spiritual Triad, as have our own Souls - who are as the Masters in their own world. The Soul itself, just as the Spark, does not actually descend into incarnation through Humanity - but rather, it draws us inward and onward. Only as the final stage of our spiritual awakening does the Soul fully manifest itself, such that mind, emotions and body are fully consecrated by the triune power within. And on a higher turn of the spiral, the same relationship develops to its natural conclusion between the Liberated human (partially, or relatively liberated) - and the SPARK above.

For a Christ, or a Buddha, long ago this `Spark' has ceased to be a Spark, just as for a Master, the Christ within is no longer a potential, it is nearly ACTUAL. The Master is already essentially what He will be, relative to Humanity and our limited understanding, UPON his becoming a Master. Chohanship (`Lord of the Dharma') and Christhood qua Christhood, are the two next stages ... followed by two possible grades of Buddhahood, then PERFECTION - and no future contact with (any) Humanity, save in extraordinary cases. But the point is, the Divine `Spark' of a Christ or Buddha, is a BLAZE of GLORY - and He has finally become, at this point, a FUTURE SUN - literally.

Several Spiritual Paths exist for him (at least Seven), and Sonship to the Logos (Solar Logos) is only one of them, yet by our definitions, he is by this point a GOD. The Spark that began as the tiniest portion of its Parent Flame, has LONG inwardly fueled - in terms of the Highest Life Essence - its every least expression through the worlds of form, finally into and beyond the Human Kingdom. The 5th Kingdom, or Kingdom of Souls, sees the shifting of the consciousness from the triple-human nature to the triple-Spiritual nature, and the relationship shifts as we awaken to our Triple DIVINE Nature. This is sublime Truth (however poorly expressed in my verbosity). ANYTHING ELSE - is HERESY. THINK about it ...

But what we find, is that EVEN a Christ or Buddha, even one `GONE-BEYOND,' is not quite the same as the GOD Who emanates or projects the Sparks. The BLAZE of GLORY of a Christ is still a small Sun as compared to the Divine PARENT, the SUN (SON) of our System. Once, the Solar Logos was a human, or the equivalent - but it was MANY, MANY Solar cycles ago. Beyond the stage of Buddhas and Christs, once we have left contact with Humanity as we know it, ours is to evolve through higher & higher worlds, but we are still subject to COSMIC cycles, rather than Solar, Planetary, and Human cycles. And on that much vaster scale of evolution, a Mighty Being incarnates AS A PLANET.

And so a planet is simply the equivalent of a physical body for this being. A Planetary Logos evolves through various Initiations, and esoterically the Seven & Ten Logoi are the students or disciples of the SOLAR Logos, who is Himself evolving - although our consciousness, to Him, must be like a QUARK is ... for us. OH yeah, but wait, I "TALKED TO" God yesterday! (Oh, and He told me, SEND MORE MONEY!!! )

So the Spark, burst into a Flame, set ABLAZE with the GLORY of the original Parent SOURCE ... is presently nearly as inacessible to us as the Sun is to Jupiter (or Saturn). But by the time we have shifted our attention and focus of development to the Inner Planets, we shall have long ago learned to peer through the Heart of the Sun ... and we will have begun to sense our relation to other Systems, and the Spiritual Principles of the "Men of the Heavens" will have been made known to us. Through the solving of the Mystery of Identity, we will see that that Higher Evolution is OUR Higher Evolution ... but ONLY then, will we be ready to tread it. We will not tread it AS God, in terms of the Being(s) we presently call God(s) ... but by that point, our evolution will be equivalent - and we will be ready!

And perhaps the Responsibility shall come to US - to reach into our Heart, bring forth the FIRE OF LIFE Itself (our OWN) - and GIVE THIS to ... an entire world of beings who would not ever exist were we not to perform this act of Creation. Yes, I've left MOST of it out ... and many of the questions that remain for me have to do with Number, Order, and the other 99.99999999% of the Divine Blueprint which I'm pretty sure NONE of us has yet glimpsed.

But I do know this - these are LOVING Beings, of immense Cosmic stature, some ... such that even the Planetary Logoi are VASTLY beyond what ANY of us has ever dreamed of relative to the word `God.' Christ showed us something of the very SOLAR LORD Himself, yet the disciples were all-too-ready to confound the `Father' with even the least among the 6th Spiritual Kingdom of Planet Earth ... the lesser Archangels. How could they have understood? Christ Himself - is learning (evolving, advancing)!

Yes, EVEN GODS, evolve. Only the Unmanifest, the One beyond ALL His manifestations ... is changeless. A bit of simple Logic shows us how & why this must be. Relationship ENTAILS CHANGE. Without this change, there is either Identity - or its opposite. And every last one of us ... is on the LONG Journey from the latter condition (utter entropy) - to the Fulfillment of the Former.

Peace ...

taijasi

[soulatom]

Originally Posted by taijasi

So the Spark, burst into a Flame, set ABLAZE with the GLORY of the original Parent SOURCE ... is presently nearly as inacessible to us as the Sun is to Jupiter (or Saturn). But by the time we have shifted our attention and focus of development to the Inner Planets, we shall have long ago learned to peer through the Heart of the Sun ... and we will have begun to sense our relation to other Systems, and the Spiritual Principles of the "Men of the Heavens" will have been made known to us. Through the solving of the Mystery of Identity, we will see that that Higher Evolution is OUR Higher Evolution ... but ONLY then, will we be ready to tread it. We will not tread it AS God, in terms of the Being(s) we presently call God(s) ... but by that point, our evolution will be equivalent - and we will be ready!

taijasi

Thank you for such an in depth reply. There is so much to respond to, I picked out this one aspect as it touches on one of the foundations of how I view life itself. I view the universe as being structured the same way we as humanity structure our family unit. It stretches into all aspects of life. Whether a group, a country or nation, religion. We are following the blueprint of the ultimate creator and that plays down to everything we do. Finally having mastered the intention of existence we return on the inhale of consciousness and reunite with that which we were before the exhale.

Why so afraid? Memory? Afraid that we will forget? Be unable to take back the knowledge and experience we have gained and be unable to share it? Why does it worry our family and loved ones so?

Going out of town for a few days will catch up with you again.

[inhumility]

Originally Posted by Penguin

I think we are all part of something that either the human brain and science can't comprehend or that it is something so simple that everybody is overlooking it.
Whatever, I would like to know what you think (briefly if possible) what happens after somebody has died.

Yes, Sir, death is something that neither the human brain nor the science can comprehend. It is something so simple that everybody is overlooking it, since it is beyond the realm of brain and science which can only comprehend things called Temporal. It can only be comprehended from the Revealed Books since God our Creator has fixed it as our destiny and unless He reveals his secrets to somebody/Prophet/Messenger there is and there can’t be any other source of knowledge in this regard.
Sir, to me, this question has been well answered by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835-1908), under the head "Second Question: What is the State of Man after Death", please read just five pages of his book “The Philosophy of the Teachings of Islam”, http://www.alislam.org/books/philosophy/1q3.html
Thanks

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by soulatom

Thank you for such an in depth reply. There is so much to respond to, I picked out this one aspect as it touches on one of the foundations of how I view life itself. I view the universe as being structured the same way we as humanity structure our family unit. It stretches into all aspects of life. Whether a group, a country or nation, religion. We are following the blueprint of the ultimate creator and that plays down to everything we do. Finally having mastered the intention of existence we return on the inhale of consciousness and reunite with that which we were before the exhale.

Why so afraid? Memory? Afraid that we will forget? Be unable to take back the knowledge and experience we have gained and be unable to share it? Why does it worry our family and loved ones so?

Going out of town for a few days will catch up with you again.

soulatom,

I think this gets to the heart of the beautiful symbolism of all of the Divine Sparks as having been impulsed - or breathed out - by the Creative Aspect of (the) Deity. During the cycles of generation and of becoming, we do develop and maintain a (necessary) identity with the lowest 5 of 7 interpenetrating worlds, or Spheres of Being. Our superhuman development, crowning the Mastery of life in the 5 worlds, shifts our attention to the 6th sphere (counting "upward"), termed `Adi' or first in esoteric Buddhism. It is the first in which we, as ETERNAL Spirits (and not simply immortal Souls), KNOW ourselves as such - in the true effulgence of the Celestial Dharmakaya.

The emphasis, even long before this, will have been on detachment and on penetrating to deeper & deeper levels of being, although even Initiates of lesser degree are aware of a pervasiveness of the sense of `SELF' that extends far into Space - though itself timeless and transcendent of even conceptuality, much less actuality or manifestation. The "rich man" cannot enter Heaven (highest Heaven), until he is ready & willing to cast off his learning, to relinquish this knowledge, experience and the memories you mention, accepting BLISS - their fruit - in exchange.

This propels us beyond Intellect (even transcending what we can at this stage only call `Divine Reason'), through Spirit, into a realm of Cosmic Realities, which 7th state is called in Theosophical literature Aupapadaka - Sanskrit, meaning `Parentless,' or `Without progenitors.' This is the realm of the Self-Existent, and about such Being(s) we can really only say - They Just ARE (`I am That I am' - as one example of this type of Being).

I love the beautiful symbolism of the Prodigal Son (the Spark, the Eternal Pilgrim), gone out from the Father, yet finally returned home to stay - as St. John hints at in Revelation 3:12, where Jerusalem (the Place of Peace) alludes to this Highest state:

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

Cheers ... I hope your travels have been good,

taijasi

[Penguin]

Thanks for all your replies, great reading indeed!