David & Jonathan, manly men?

[paul]

Originally Posted by LeoSalinas22

you are right though, maybe my mind is wandering. but David is human after all. i am just questioning this scripture. David did do alot of things. he went after another man's wife, got her husband killed, killed alot of people, was an actor, musician, soldier, poet, singer, dancer etc. he did alot of things, you know? who knows what went on through his head. i am just open to alot of possibities. maybe that is where my problem lies, i have a big imagination.

I can't remember if it was after he manipulated the situation for her husband to die in battle or before.
But whichever he definitely had adultery in his heart.

His getting her husband killed was a combined sin resulting from this lust.
He didn't actually go out and slay him, or even have someone else do it.
But if i recall right, he manipulated the situation so that he would die in battle.

Yes this was a sin of Davids, but i beleive he was probably a more righteous man than you or i, even though we may not have done these things in our lives today.
And many in such a time in such a position as Davids would have done far worse with no remorse.
But David loved God and his people and ruled them righteously under the guidence of God.

I don't think he sinned in killing a lot of people, he was more guilty of her husband, than of anyone he may of slayed in battle.
War is a fact of life.
And it can be for noble reasons.

If a tyrant people, would come and rape and slaughter your family and people, of whom you even ruled and loved.
And in such times, what type of person would you be if you didn't stand up for them?

Was he an actor?

musician, soldier, poet, singer, dancer, are these accusations as if they were wrong?

He played the harp which soothed peoples souls.
He fought for his people, with God on his side.
He wrote some of the most God inspired literature.
If he sang or danced it was in praise of God.

Yes he did a lot of things that we do know.
And what went on through his head we do know, he wrote his most intimate thoughts.
Of any man in history, we can know the mind, spirit and soul of David.
It make take our own growth in spirituality to truly understand and be connected with him, and in that i beleive even thoiugh he fell to sin as we all do, he was one of the greatest men of God.

Act 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised them up David to be king: to whom giving testimony, he said: I have found David, the son of Jesse, a man according to my own heart, who shall do all my wills.

[LeoSalinas22]

hello paul,

I can't remember if it was after he manipulated the situation for her husband to die in battle or before.But whichever he definitely had adultery in his heart.His getting her husband killed was a combined sin resulting from this lust.He didn't actually go out and slay him, or even have someone else do it.But if i recall right, he manipulated the situation so that he would die in battle.

that is what i love about David, he is human, just like the rest of us. his mistakes are out for the world to see. so what if he was gay? that wouldn't make him any worse, would it? i mean, i will be frank, getting someone's husband killed just so that you can have his wife is pretty bad! do you see my point? i don't care if he was gay or if he had gay thoughts.

Yes this was a sin of Davids, but i beleive he was probably a more righteous man than you or i, even though we may not have done these things in our lives today.

i will not argue with you there, my friend. he is God's annointed after all, no? i know for a fact he is more righteous. that is where the mystery lies in God's will. David did many things that today's society would deem "bad", but God still cherished David like a son. most people would not understand that. most people would think David to be a bad person.

But David loved God and his people and ruled them righteously under the guidence of God.

we need a King just like that. not the losers that are rulers today on this world, right?

I don't think he sinned in killing a lot of people, he was more guilty of her husband, than of anyone he may of slayed in battle.
War is a fact of life.
And it can be for noble reasons.

again, i won't argue with you there because i agree with you completely. he was only doing Gods will. can you understand that?

If a tyrant people, would come and rape and slaughter your family and people, of whom you even ruled and loved.
And in such times, what type of person would you be if you didn't stand up for them?

i don't know what kind of person i would be, all i know is that i would do anything to do God's will as crazy as that may sound to you. let His Kingdom come, His will be done...

Was he an actor?

1 Samuel 21 And David laid up these words in his heart, and was sore afraid of Achish the king of Gath. And he changed his behaviour before them, and feigned himself mad in their hands, and scrabbled on the doors of the gate, and let his spittle fall down upon his beard. Then said Achish unto his servants, Lo, ye see the man is mad: wherefore then have ye brought him to me?

musician, soldier, poet, singer, dancer, are these accusations as if they were wrong?

the only reason i brought this up was because i was kinda joking. in case you haven't noticed, in today's society most artists are gay, if not, metrosexual, and if not that, are so sensetive that they in turn are very artistic and are very much, "feminine". i am guilty as charged in this category. even though i am not gay, i love to dance, sing, draw, practice martial arts, worry about my weight, so i work out! i love to write. i cry more for the dumbest things. now, remember, i am not gay, i may seem like it, but am not! i am as this world may see an arteest!

He played the harp which soothed peoples souls.
He fought for his people, with God on his side.
He wrote some of the most God inspired literature.
If he sang or danced it was in praise of God.

amen, paul.

Yes he did a lot of things that we do know.
And what went on through his head we do know, he wrote his most intimate thoughts.
Of any man in history, we can know the mind, spirit and soul of David.
It make take our own growth in spirituality to truly understand and be connected with him, and in that i beleive even thoiugh he fell to sin as we all do, he was one of the greatest men of God.

amen and amen. praise God!
hope, i didn't offend you, man. i love having conversations like this. you should post more often because honestly, this place has gotten a bit stale. no one really likes talking about God like i do. i have noticed in your words that you do, though. thanks for reading and i hope to hear from you soon. God bless you, paul.

[paul]

I hope i don't offend you, but i don't take any joy in having such conversations where such Holy men are being dragged through the mud.

It's maybe about purity and holiness of mind, of spirit and heart.

Sexual desire between a man and a woman is quite evidently natural and if you beleive in God the way He created us physically.
This is the natural way he created us.

David saw a woman naked, not a sin quite natural the way God created us
David had sexual desires for a woman, not a sin, quite natural the way God created us.
He had sexual desires outside the bonds of love.
His sexual desires ruled him and made him act unjustly.
It was a lust not in the loving union God created for us.
But was driven by carnal lust and the results followed which took him from the love of God.
For if the love of God was the forefront of his mind, spirit and heart, he wouldn't have continued in what he did.
Lust does this to us, when our desires are no longer controlled in love, but overtake and love is pushed aside.

I beleive for someone to have sexual desire for the same sex, for animals or children, is something unHoly, unatural, and is an impurity of the mind, spirit and heart.

We all may have impurity of the mind, spirit and heart it is sin.

What we may find in life though is when even we have been mistreated by others and can have a negative effect on us.

We need healing.

To insult Holy men of God to have such an unatural desire insults God.
Your saying such men who have come to a union with Him above all men, have not purity of mind, heart and Spirit.
You make God impure that such impure thoughts have a such a great closeness to God.

We are not as David, there are homosexuals who need healing, and me and you i am sure have much sin which needs healing.
But although david was human, he fell to sin, he was at a much greater height of spirituality than most of us, and such impurity can not be associated with him.

I'll give an example.
Such a Holy person can not be a drunk or drug addict.
can you see what i'm saying?

David wasn't a drunk, he wasn't a coward, as i'm guilty of.
He wasn't afraid to praise God before all no matter how foollish he may have looked, which i am guilty of.
He wasn't actually an adulterer, he commited it once.
He wasn't a murderer, he manipulated his death once.
He wasn't a drug addict, he wasn't lazy, he didn't have unatural sexual desires.
He wasn't a criminal.

Many of these things we may suffer from and more, but David was a very courageous, very Holy man.
We need much help to get close to the spirituality that David had.
Please don't try to corrupt such Holiness to such impurities that many of us who are not as faithfull as David suffer from.

[LeoSalinas22]

kindes regards, paul:

I hope i don't offend you, but i don't take any joy in having such conversations where such Holy men are being dragged through the mud.
It's maybe about purity and holiness of mind, of spirit and heart.

wow, i am amazed. loving God should be very passionate as i see that same passionate desire for righteousness in your words, but lets get one thing straight here, i am not dragging David into the mud as you say. to me, he is amazing because he was never self-righteous like most people are today. he repented for his sins and that is all that matters. fact is he was a sinner. no one can be a sinner and be holy. but i don't give credit to him, i give credit to God. God is Holy, no man can be holy, yet. i know you have read this before:
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
tell me what you think, ok?

David saw a woman naked, not a sin quite natural the way God created us
David had sexual desires for a woman, not a sin, quite natural the way God created us.

Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

He had sexual desires outside the bonds of love.
His sexual desires ruled him and made him act unjustly.
It was a lust not in the loving union God created for us.
But was driven by carnal lust and the results followed which took him from the love of God.
For if the love of God was the forefront of his mind, spirit and heart, he wouldn't have continued in what he did.
Lust does this to us, when our desires are no longer controlled in love, but overtake and love is pushed aside.

Romans 7 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I beleive for someone to have sexual desire for the same sex, for animals or children, is something unHoly, unatural, and is an impurity of the mind, spirit and heart.

that is why i am hoping for you to understand my point of view of that being that sin is sin. no sin is greater or lesser. it is just sin. we are all guilty of it.

To insult Holy men of God to have such an unatural desire insults God.
Your saying such men who have come to a union with Him above all men, have not purity of mind, heart and Spirit.

gosh, man, i hope i am not insulting God. i only questioned the fact that David and Jonathan kissed each other. thats all. can i not do that?

You make God impure that such impure thoughts have a such a great closeness to God.

i know it is impossible for me to make God impure.

We are not as David, there are homosexuals who need healing, and me and you i am sure have much sin which needs healing.
But although david was human, he fell to sin, he was at a much greater height of spirituality than most of us, and such impurity can not be associated with him.

again, sin is sin. if i cheat on my wife it doesn't mean my sin is less than that of a homosexual or a child molester. what would matter is that if i or they repent of their sin. i agree though, i hope to reach David's spirituality someday. he was truly an amazing man.

I'll give an example.
Such a Holy person can not be a drunk or drug addict.
can you see what i'm saying?

i know exactly what you mean, but how do you interprit this verse?
Luke 7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' 34 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners.'" 35 But wisdom is proved right by all her children."

He wasn't actually an adulterer, he commited it once.
He wasn't a murderer, he manipulated his death once.
He wasn't a drug addict, he wasn't lazy, he didn't have unatural sexual desires.
He wasn't a criminal.

all it takes is once, my friend. Adam and Eve only ate the fruit once and look at where man is.

Many of these things we may suffer from and more, but David was a very courageous, very Holy man.
We need much help to get close to the spirituality that David had.

amen, paul

Please don't try to corrupt such Holiness to such impurities that many of us who are not as faithfull as David suffer from.

i am not trying to corrupt anything, paul. just merely questioning it. i hate homosexuals, man. i don't justify them one bit. thanks for reading and God bless...

[paul]

Originally Posted by LeoSalinas22

kindes regards, paul:
wow, i am amazed. loving God should be very passionate as i see that same passionate desire for righteousness in your words, but lets get one thing straight here, i am not dragging David into the mud as you say. to me, he is amazing because he was never self-righteous like most people are today. he repented for his sins and that is all that matters. fact is he was a sinner. no one can be a sinner and be holy. but i don't give credit to him, i give credit to God. God is Holy, no man can be holy, yet. i know you have read this before:
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
tell me what you think, ok?

Only God is perfect, but don't you see a Holiness in David.
You seem to agree he reached a righteous state greater than most of us.
In that he is refered to as a Holy man.
Yes Isaiah speaks true.
And why do you listen to the words of even Isaiah.

Do you see the difference in men like Isaiah and David, to maybe me and you and most of the world?

Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

God created men and women with sexual desires and obviously to have sex.
God created our naked bodies.
My point is in this sex between a man and woman is natural, unlike between two of the same sex.

This passage is talking of lust, what David did, Paul even talks of being carfeful in marriage and even advices to abstain from once in a while sex for a short time.
In my interperatation so marriage is not overtaken to be about sex.

If marraige is more about love, and sex is controlled and enjoyed in it's right place then it is not lust, same as food, it can be enjoyed and shared and we can give thanks, but we can also be glutonous and a lust of food can overtake us.

Because if we lust after a woman as David did, what's to stop us when the chance arises to commit the adultery, in heart we have already done it.
And for the lust of women, men have done far worse than David.

that is why i am hoping for you to understand my point of view of that being that sin is sin. no sin is greater or lesser. it is just sin. we are all guilty of it.

Yes but your attbributing a continunous state of sin to a Holy person.
Like being a drunk, drug addict or homosexual.
You put them down in the mire, not up in the heavens.

If these men in scripture were drunks, drug addicts, criminals, and whatever else, they would not be witnesses of God.
They were great witnesses of God, His love shone through them.
Most of us are at a lower stage in our spiritual growth and we are not the witnesses they were can you agree?

Or do you say you have reached the height David did.
That any homosexual has?
Drug addict, drunk?

gosh, man, i hope i am not insulting God. i only questioned the fact that David and Jonathan kissed each other. thats all. can i not do that?[

Your not questioning the fact that David and Johnathan kissed each other, for there is no question they did.

But you are insulting the innocence and purity of their love.

What if someone was questioning your sexuality, or one of your loved ones who had died, or even accusing them of other sins they didn't have.
What if the accusation was of peodophilier.
We know Davids sin and his greatness, you are questioning him to add sin to his name which there are no grounds whatsover

i know it is impossible for me to make God impure.

That it undoubtedly is.
But it doesn't stop you insulting his greatest witnesses, those closest to him as having reached Him with such a mind of impiurity.
You insult His name, it doesn't change His name, but it's still an insult.

again, sin is sin. if i cheat on my wife it doesn't mean my sin is less than that of a homosexual or a child molester. what would matter is that if i or they repent of their sin. i agree though, i hope to reach David's spirituality someday. he was truly an amazing man.

Sin is sin, but states of sin are different, why do you see David as such an amazing man.
Would you still see him as an amazing man if he was an homosexual or child molester?

Problem is we then assuming he would be the same man and still be a child molester and homosexual.
But if he was in that state he wouldn't have reached the Holiness he did.
Homosexuals, peodophiles, are not Holy people accept for that one sin in their lives.
Do you really think they can reach the heights of spirituality that David did and still be those sorts of people?

know exactly what you mean, but how do you interprit this verse?
Luke 7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' 34 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners.'" 35 But wisdom is proved right by all her children."

Not sure what you mean.
John the Baptist came in poverty, Jesus sat down and ate and drank, but he wasn't a glutton or drunk.
He was a friend of sinners, as he sat down and talked to them, told them the truth, showed them the right way.

Maybe it is they thought John mad because of his strict diet of locusts and honey, his stirct abstinace of the world in many ways.
But then even when Jesus came as they were and ate and drank as them, as i said not in sinful ways, but just a normal way, they would then even accuse Him.

They accused John for not being as the norm, and accused Jesus for not being as John.

all it takes is once, my friend. Adam and Eve only ate the fruit once and look at where man is.

Sin has it's consequences.
But Holy men don't stay in the lowest state of sin.
What i mean is we all are to grow. and they have truly men and women that have reached the very heights.
Homosexuality in it's state is the mire, that's what i mean you dragging them down through the mud

amen, paul
i am not trying to corrupt anything, paul. just merely questioning it. i hate homosexuals, man. i don't justify them one bit. thanks for reading and God bless...

Why do you hate homosexuals.
You hate homosexuals, but even question that David a man you find amazing could have been one?

Please don't hate homosexuals.
I thought you had said one sin is no worse than another.

I beleive homosexuality is a sick act, but they are people and maybe gone through much hurt to end up that way.
And can be very far from God.

And you know the only way to show someone God, is to let His love shine through you.

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by paul

(snip)

Do you see the difference in men like Isaiah and David, to maybe me and you and most of the world?


(snip)

Paul, I am not Leo but I do not see the difference in men like Isaiah and David to maybe me and you. I do not see God as being a respecter of persons.
James 5:17
Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

Originally Posted by Paul

Yes but your attbributing a continunous state of sin to a Holy person.
Like being a drunk, drug addict or homosexual.
You put them down in the mire, not up in the heavens.

I think you read too much into what Leo has said. He said David was "human just like the rest of us". I find no evidence to support otherwise. That David was guilty of premeditated murder and stealing another man's wife is a matter of biblical record. He repented and was forgiven same as anyone else who committs such acts and repents. Nobody said anything about David being in a continuous state of sin.

Originally Posted by Paul

If these men in scripture were drunks, drug addicts, criminals, and whatever else, they would not be witnesses of God.
They were great witnesses of God, His love shone through them.
Most of us are at a lower stage in our spiritual growth and we are not the witnesses they were can you agree?

On the contrary, God sometimes chooses the worst of sinners to be the best of his witnesses. Take Saul/Paul for example who admittedly had many Christians killed in the name of God but was later one of his greatest witnesses.

Originally Posted by Paul

Or do you say you have reached the height David did.
That any homosexual has?
Drug addict, drunk?

Why get personal? God knows the hearts of men. In Leo's defense, he said no such thing.

Originally Posted by Paul

Your not questioning the fact that David and Johnathan kissed each other, for there is no question they did.

But you are insulting the innocence and purity of their love.

What if someone was questioning your sexuality, or one of your loved ones who had died, or even accusing them of other sins they didn't have.
What if the accusation was of peodophilier.
We know Davids sin and his greatness, you are questioning him to add sin to his name which there are no grounds whatsover


That it undoubtedly is.
But it doesn't stop you insulting his greatest witnesses, those closest to him as having reached Him with such a mind of impiurity.
You insult His name, it doesn't change His name, but it's still an insult.

Perhaps a moment of prayer and chilling out would be in order.

Love and Peace.
JM

[paul]

I see a difference in men like Isaiah and David to myself.
They were much greater witnesses of their faith than me.
.
Act 10:34 And Peter opening his mouth, said: in very deed I perceive that God is not a respecter of persons.
Act 10:35 But in every nation, he that feareth him and worketh righteousness is acceptable to him.

Paul didn't remain the man he was, but as you say later became one of the greatest witnesses.

I see a very great difference in Paul in his faith to myself in mine.

Thank you Joseph.
And sorry Leo if i've insulted your faith or offended you personally.

Pray for me.
Paul

[paul]

I admit i don't really like the question of this subject, but because of the accusations today, i would like to try to show the love between David and Johnathan, and the great injury in these accusations.

David and Johnathan had a pure love.
If only we could see and learn from it, and see what it was that abode within them.

We fail to see it, in how we supress this love, if we were as full in this love as them we would not fail to see it and would see how injurous such accusations are.

Look at the love between David and Johnathan.
The love between Paul and those that fell on his neck weeping at his departure.

Do we have such brotherly love today, for that's what they had, they had the love of God, greater than most of us.
That is what is shown in this writings.
And that is what we need to submit to more.

In our socieites, in our world, we've sometimes lost these pure emotions, this pure love, we surpress it, are afraid to even express it and live it.

They are an example to us, in them lived, is shown to us the love of God.

I beleive we have to submit to such love in our lives.
That we would weep on each others necks in our love for each other.

I see such love, but i fail in it.
But that is a love i need more, want more in my life and in others.
I don't think i could want anything greater for myself or others

[bob x]

To me it is entirely self-evident that the love between David and Jonathan was physical. There is not a single passage where their feelings are not described in physical terms.