Cultural Ties and Religion

[KarimK]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Exotic???? I can assure you that living in 40 degree heat, whilst wearing so many clothes and covering your head is NOT exotic. It also suggests a degree of fickleness and perhaps even stupidity that one would convert to another religion because it seemed 'exotic'.

It's probably not your case, but you gotta admit that part of the Western interest in let's say Buddhism is only very superficial and part of the fascination is due to the fact that "it comes from far far away".

And I hope I don't burst a bubble if I tell you that yes, when people are involved, stupidity generally is involved too

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by pattimax

I asked and you gave.
Please, I am not trying to start a discussion on your point of view, but it doesn't sound like a humble perspective.

So in your view would I be more humble if I said I am right and you are wrong or perhaps I would be more humble if I called myself and fellow believers Saints or suggested that I had the powers of G-d? Perhaps humbleness is like beauty - in the eye of the beholder?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by KarimK

It's probably not be your case, but you gotta admit that part of the Western interest in let's say Buddhism is only very superficial and part of the fascination is due to the fact that "it comes from far far away".

Yes I see what you are saying and many people do have religious 'fads' if I may call it that.

Originally Posted by KarimK

And I hope I don't burst a bubble if I tell you that yes, when people are involved, stupidity generally is involved too

My bubble is burst - you big bully. Okay I shall give you that one, where there is humanity there is always stupidity.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by KarimK

you gotta admit that part of the Western interest in let's say Buddhism is only very superficial

Bit sweeping that. Interest in anything will vary from individual to individual. I know some very "committed" Buddhists and some very "superficial" non-Buddhists. (I'm a "Westerner.")

and part of the fascination is due to the fact that "it comes from far far away".

Depending on exactly what one means by “Western”, the Abrahamic religions aren’t exactly locally sourced are they?

s.

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

So in your view would I be more humble if I said I am right and you are wrong or perhaps I would be more humble if I called myself and fellow believers Saints or suggested that I had the powers of G-d? Perhaps humbleness is like beauty - in the eye of the beholder?

See, that's it right there. It is NOT my view. Calling fellow believers saints comes from the Word of God. Humility is found there also. You would be more humble in Gods eyes if you trusted Him more.

[KarimK]

Fair enough. I'm not saying all "Westerners" (yeh, the quotation marks were definitely necessary there ) that are interested in Buddhism are superficial. I'm only stating that fact that in mainstream "occidental" culture Buddhism is reduced to a set of pretty, neat notions that can be used or discarded at any time.

I'm using "Western" in the sense of "Occidental" - it's not about Abrahamic religions.

What I'm trying to say is : there's this fad (thanks, muslimwoman, I was desperately fumbling for the appropriate word to express myself ) for exotic, eastern religions in Europe and the States today - just look at all the celebrities jumping around "oh, I'm a Buddhist, I'm a Buddhist" when they have no idea what it's really about. And I'm saying this fad's source is basically the fact that Buddhism - because it originated in India (therefore not in the "West") offers a refreshing, different alternative to Abrahamic religions. Therefore, for a lot of people, the main appeal of Buddhism is the fact that they can't quite grasp its values and ideas (not saying that I do ) and it sounds "mystical".

Meh

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by pattimax

See, that's it right there. It is NOT my view. Calling fellow believers saints comes from the Word of God. Humility is found there also. You would be more humble in Gods eyes if you trusted Him more.

I am trying to decide if you genuinely have a problem understanding what I say or if you are just trying to misunderstand me because I do not follow the same religion as you? I shall explain.

I asked for your view, that means what is your opinion or what do you think about or share your personal thoughts about a given question. So any answer you give me to a question about your view is in fact your view is it not?

I found this definition of a saint on a Christian site, perhaps you could explain for me how I am misunderstanding it?

All Christians aspire to become saints, that is, persons in heaven (officially canonized or not), who lived lives of great charity and heroic virtues.

Of course I took this from a Catholic site, which I feel sure you were aware is the type of sainthood I was referring to. Or do you believe that because you follow Christ you have actually become holy? Maybe I should move this to the "where does religious arrogance come from" thread?

[pattimax]

Muslimwoman:

I asked for your view, that means what is your opinion or what do you think about or share your personal thoughts about a given question.

I went back through the thread and was unable to find where you asked me what my view was. You just told me how I view things.

I do not think a definition from a Catholic web site applies since I am not Catholic. In the bible all of God's redeemed followers are saints. What gives you the idea that being Holy is arrogant?

Hebrews 6:10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by KarimK

I'm not saying all "Westerners" (yeh, the quotation marks were definitely necessary there ) that are interested in Buddhism are superficial....
Meh

Fair enough.

Some of these "celebrities" (I seem to feel the need to use quote marks a lot!) seem to be moving on to "exotic" pastures anew; Kabbalah, Scientology...

s.

[Neemai]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

...I am also unable to accept that G-d, the All Seeing, the All Knowing, the All Merciful will reject good people based on which Prophet (pbut) they follow or which name they call their religion. Just my humble little point of view.

Hello MW - this makes perfect sense to me as well. I find this a very refreshing approach.

A teacher in my tradition once asked the question of his teacher: "How merciful is God?". To which the reply was "There is no limit to God's Mercy". From that perspective it would seem very unfair to us evaluate people based on external allegiances or labels, let alone for an All-Merciful God to do so.

All glories to the Supreme Lord!

... Neemai

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by pattimax

I went back through the thread and was unable to find where you asked me what my view was. You just told me how I view things.

This was where I asked you your view, I have a strange habit of putting a question mark at the end of a sentence when I ask a question, whereas if I am being sarcastic I leave off the question mark:

So in your view would I be more humble if I said I am right and you are wrong or perhaps I would be more humble if I called myself and fellow believers Saints or suggested that I had the powers of G-d? Perhaps humbleness is like beauty - in the eye of the beholder?

I was actually trying to determine what you view as humble, as our understanding of humble appears to be very different.

Originally Posted by pattimax

I do not think a definition from a Catholic web site applies since I am not Catholic. In the bible all of God's redeemed followers are saints. What gives you the idea that being Holy is arrogant?

It applies because as two intelligent adults we were both aware that this is the definition of Saint that I was using.

Perhaps we also have different defintions of the word holy. My understanding of the word holy is something that is worthy of worship, something sacred by virtue of divine power and therefore to be revered. Would you say this describes you?

Originally Posted by pattimax

Hebrews 6:10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Sorry you will have to explain your interpretation of this to me. Did Jesus (pbuh) not minister to such as John the Baptist, would you class yourself as in the same league (sorry that is a really bad word but I can't think of a better one at the moment) as John the Baptist?

What an intriguing question, I am not being rude, I just enjoy languages so would like to explore a little. I don't speak ancient greek and my latin is a bit rusty, so bear with me.

Hebrews 6:10 Non enim iniustus Deus ut obliviscatur operis vestri et dilectionis quam ostendistis in nomine ipsius qui ministrastis sanctis et ministratis

As I understand it (but of course I am no scholar) the word sanctus can mean sacred or holy or pious or virtuous or chaste. So could this be "you have ministered to the pious"? Whereas the word sancto means religiously or solemnly, so could it translate as "you have ministered to the religious"?

sanctis Apostolis Petro et Paulo,
omnibus Sanctis, et vobis, fratres (et tibi pater),

Meaning

holy Apostles Peter and Paul
to all the Saints, and to you, brothers (and to you father)

the same word is used for holy and saints. As with many languages a single word can have many meanings so if this is correct, does it not then seem to you a little arrogant to use the translation saints, when it could be equally translated as pious or religious?

I shall look into it further and see what I can find.

[InLove]

Leo, I thought of you this weekend. I was out in east Texas where the rivers are now cresting due to the extraordinary amount of rainfall this season. I saw fields of ruined crops near the Sabine, and in my mind’s eye, I envisioned the seeds floating away as the floods carried them onto patches of water-logged highways and byways. Then as I sat looking out over my dad’s relatively dry gardens, I thought how glad I was that he had decided to plant so many perennials. If he had tried to grow everything from seed, even his well-drained flowerbeds might very well be bare this summer.

Part of the reason I went to see Dad was to help him get started organizing a chest full of photographs. This is something he and I have been wanting to do for a while now, but we need each other’s support in this endeavor since my dear mother passed on near the end of last year. As we began to pour over the memories, I noticed how the pictures of my own back yard read like a diary, reminding me of a time when there were no flowers under my twin mulberry trees, and how they have grown to make an arch over the stepping stones and rock gardens that I personally laid there throughout the years. I realized that there was a time when I used to till everything under each spring and start over with seeds until I discovered the joy of those beautiful perennials.

All these observations got me to thinking about what you said. And I thought: Now I see what Leo was getting at, perhaps? Even if a seed is sown into good soil, if that soil is continually disrupted, then it does not have a chance to develop and take root. And so your idea about the passage in Matthew 3 relating to war-torn places made a bit more sense to me, I think. Is this along the lines of what you were trying to say? I had not really ever thought of it this way before.

InPeace,
InLove