crystals

[bgruagach]

I'll bite, Talia.

[quote author=Talia link=board=6;threadid=63;start=msg953#msg953 date=1056398753]
Am I the only person that believes that a crystal with its specific mineral properties may just happen to have some form of useful property we cannot yet describe?[/quote]

I'm more of the skeptical and scientific nature myself (and yes, I still consider myself an eclectic Wiccan). The vast majority of scientists I've encountered are level-headed people who have open minds to the possibility that current theories might be wrong. The difference with scientists, though, is that they tend to be skeptical of a claim unless there is some sort of verifiable proof to support it.

Claims about crystals' "healing powers" could certainly be true, at least in some specific circumstances. At the moment there doesn't appear to be any scientific proof for any of those claims, though. If the proof isn't there, the proof isn't there. It's up to those making the claims to come forward with the actual evidence, or to convince scientists to divert their scarce monetary resources currently earmarked for other research to investigate these claims.

I do understand the frustration that scientists feel when non-scientists try to validate unsupported claims by pretending that it is scientifically backed -- throwing in some scientific-sounding terms or phrases to impress the uneducated has worked for snake-oil salesmen in the past, and continues to work today in all sorts of scams.

To quote a bit on scientific proof from the dreaded skepdic website (specifically from http://www.skepdic.com/testimon.html )
If others cannot experience the same thing under the same conditions, then there will be no way to verify the experience. If there is no way to test the claims made, then there will be no way to tell if the experience was a delusion or was interpreted correctly. If others can experience the same thing, then it is possible to make a test of the testimonial and determine whether the claim based on it is worthy of belief.

Science is about being able to prove things are the way they say they are. Tests have to be performed and they have to work. And they have to work no matter who does the tests so long as they follow the method and circumstances correctly. Any claim, including that crystals can heal, should be possible to test. If it can't be tested then how can we be sure that it's real and not just a delusion?

As a Wiccan I want my spells to work. That means doing my best to understand what is going on in a situation and doing my very best to manipulate whatever forces are in play to my advantage, according to my religious path's ethics of course. I don't want to waste time on things that don't really have any effect. That's why science is important to me.

Using the explanation that everything is a psychological tool is a roundabout argument as well as it says that everything we believe is not real and just a psychological tool. If that is true then it doesn't matter if we call ourselves pagan or christian or jehovah's witnesses or join the solar temple because our opinions will all be wrong and just psychological tools anyway.

As a Pagan and a polytheist, I don't believe there is such a thing as a "One True Way" that is right for everyone. Where some would say, "they're all wrong!" I'd argue, "in some ways, each of them is right!" It's the old question about whether the glass is half-full or half-empty.

Regarding the opinion that at least some magickal tools such as crystals are really just psychological props... this is not really a new idea. Dion Fortune and Israel Regardie, as two examples that pop in my head right off the top, both considered magick to be more or less a form of operative or practical psychology. (They were both practicing psychologists working in the mental health field, I believe. I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that.)

Whether the things work because of psychology or because of some other reason still means that they can work. Getting a better understanding of WHY they work, though, allows us to be that much more effective with them. If we know why they work, then we can fine-tune how we use the tools to take advantage of the real power in them instead of wasting effort with parts of their use that really don't do anything.

I'm not saying we are all right when we try to explain something, but I do think went we try to explain we can go too far. When we explain away other peoples opinions we can undermine our own.

That last sentence is quite interesting... and it is a double-edged sword. When scientific viewpoints are dismissed out of hand, why shouldn't nonscientific viewpoints also be dismissed out of hand? If we take one viewpoint seriously, shouldn't we keep our minds open enough to at least consider the other viewpoints?

Science has gotten humans a lot -- modern medicine, abundant and varied food, computers, the internet. It certainly has its problems too, but then so does the religious community. I just find it hard to dismiss science out-of-hand when it's clear that science is not just a matter of opinion and ego.

[brian]

Hi, Ben, and welcome to comparative-religon.com! Nice to see you came in - I was about to send a personal invite.

As to the nature of science versus mysticism - one of the more immediate problems is that science cannot describe what it cannot quantify.

Despite the dazzling descriptions of the physical world, science still cannot quantify consciousness, let alone the spiritual experience involved in the conscious experience.

Thus there is a place for rationalism - even cynicism - but the limits of science must always be recognised.

As for Talia's latter objection - effectively, our personal experience of reality is always described through psychological tools. Different people may use different ones.

Ultimately though, as the conscious experience remains an unquantified one, then difficulty will arise from determining possible objective reality through subjective belief.

In other words, saying that a certain perception is a psychological tool isn't a way of rubbishing that perception, but merely indicative that it also has limitations.

Effectively, any perception of Divinity can be regarded as a psychological tool, regardless of how that belief is expressed or practiced.

[Elizabeth May]

As a sort of agnostic rationalist my big problem is that the spiritual is not rational, and the rational is not spiritual. That's why I play straight and admit I don't know.

[WHKeith]

Hi, bgruagach! Welcome. And may I call you Ben too? Your handle is a mouthful!

At the risk of saying "Me, too," I strongly echo both Ben's and brian's statements. I possess a number of crystals that I use for various healing and/or magical purposes. They work. Is it because they possess a special internal and objective quality? A certain crystalline alignment? A special vibratory rate? Or is it because I BELIEVE them to work? And, more important, does it matter?

My most precious stone is a half-fist-sized meteorite I found while walking on the beach while engaged in prayer-meditation with the Goddess. It resonates with me in indescribeable ways... but that's because of my astronomical/SF interests, the fact that this sort of accidental find is so rare, and the fact that I truly believe the Goddess led me to this creature literally of earth (it's a lump of iron), air (it fell out of the sky), fire (as a fiery shooting star), and water (the sea brought it up to the beach for me to find)!

Apologies. I haven't figured out how to pick up quotes on this thing yet. But, Talia . . . about where you said, "If that is true then it doesn't matter if we call ourselves pagan or christian or jehovah's witnesses or join the solar temple because our opinions will all be wrong and just psychological tools anyway."

As a matter of fact, I do believe this to be the case--all except for the part of all of us being wrong. No--we will find that we are all RIGHT, since all of those religious forms are expressions of our individual quests for our own spiritual path. THAT's what's important, not the name of the church we go to, IMHO. I used to be a born-again fundy Christian (my dark and secret past coming out of the closet!) and thought that MY way was the only way that was right. Everybody else was wrong. B***S***!

None of what we've said on this thread is meant as a definitive, "This is how it is, and everybody else is wrong." Hell, no! But it is difficult to scientifically and objectively verify some of the New Age statements about crystal properties, and much of what IS said is demonstrably false--such as my statement about the woman channeling her gills. (Dolphins--the mammal variety, not the fish--don't HAVE gills!)

I especially appreciate Brian's statement that calling something a psychological tool isn't meant to trash it. "Psychological" doesn't mean "imaginary." And "imaginary" does not mean "not real!" One of my toughest lessons as a newbie witch was getting past the hurdle of, "but, I'm just making that up!" And my teacher would say, "Yes, what's your point?" The human mind is the most powerful instrumentality there is. When I teach a class on witchcraft, one of my first lessons is, "The most powerful and useful magical tool you will ever use is yourself." I can cast a circle--or heal--with a gorgeous double-ended 6-inch quartz crystal that I bought for something like $80.00. Or I can use my hand. Or I can close my eyes and bring up a powerful inner visualization of myself performing the task, all conveniently tucked away inside my mind. Which is right? The question is meaningless. There IS no right, except in whether or not I get real-world results.

One more note. (Just one, I promise! Geeze, brian, this board is WAY too addictive! Howza guy supposed to get any work done?)

Within many metaphysical disciplines, there exists a principle that recognizes power within not only our own belief, but within the collected beliefs of many people over many years. Have you ever walked into a large and imposing cathedral, and felt an indescribable upwelling of awe and spiritual presence? That's not just the archetecture speaking to you; it may well be the collected beliefs and prayers and emotions of millions of worshippers all on that one spot, going back for generation upon generation. Certain holy spots--Stonehenge comes to mind--have the same impact. (True, some of that may also involve ley lines or other poorly understood physical phenomenon.)

As a witch, I can either go to a spellbook and do a working by recipe, or I can write the thing new, for myself, using what is meaningful for me. Which is right? Both are. I can get tremendous power out of using whatever tools I find personally meaningful--that meteorite, for instance. But I can also draw on tremendous power by using a spell that has been done and done and done successfully by generations of witches for hundreds of years. I think of it as "ruts on the astral." The more people do something successfully, the more likely it is to be successful in the future.

Certain qualities of crystals and minerals have become more or less set by llong repeated use and belief. Amethyst, for instance, supposedly can prevent drunkeness. (The ancient Greeks sometimes carved drinking goblets out of amethyst for this reason!) Is there some poorly understood property of amethyst crystal that neutralizes alcohol? I don't think that's likely. Amethyst, scientifically speaking, is silicon dioxide (SiO2) with a trigonal crystalline archetecture, and with a touch of iron to give it its color. Carnelian, Agate, Bloodstone, Jasper, Quartz, Chrysoprase, Citrine, Aventurine, Tiger's Eye, and many others ALL are SiO2 in a trigonal cyrstalline alignment, some with minor inclusions like iron, some without. So far as science is concerned, there's nothing about silicon, oxygen, or iron that can prevent drunkeness. (Okay, okay, pure oxygen can alleviate hangover symptoms, but that's gaseous O2, and all of those other stones are oxides too!)

But . . . have millions of people BELIEVED that it does? Yes. And that fact may provide the psychological handle necessary for their own bodies to alleviate the effects of alcohol in their systems.

And, as it happens, amethyst has all-round healing properties, it's wonderfully calming, seems to energize the fifth and sixth chakras, and helps improve psychic awareness. If this is due to its chemical nature or to the belief structures that have accreted around it seems completely immaterial. If it works, use it!

And, if I seemed dogmatic or dismissive in my earlier posts on the topic, Talia, please forgive me. That was neither my intent nor my belief. One of the deep and abiding joys of this board is the fact that it offers a forum where we can trade ideas and ramble on about religious topics WITHOUT giving or taking offense, withour putting down others or feeling put down ourselves. It's great!

[brian]

Ah, it's a shame I forgot about the gills mention. That was quite a revelation! I simply hope she wasn't charging for lessons.

And I don't think you're coming across as dogmatic, WHKieth - I don't believe anybody here is particularly - which is quite a relief.

As for quoting:
[ quote ]
remove the spaces between the brackets to quote...[ /quote ]

...or else click on the "quote" button on a post and edit as required in the posting box you end up on.


As for the issue of crystals itself...I've tried using empathy on them before. Sometimes no effect – sometimes I feel something like a high-pitched ringing sound. Once during my asceticism I tried to use empathy to feel the state of a woman where there was a mutual attraction – but I was surprised to feel her a crystal around her neck seemingly repulse it.

What does that mean? It means I can see potential in the idea that crystals may have an objective spiritual function. What that is exact I don’t know. However, my own outlook on the world attempts to be as rationalistic as possible – I cannot accept New Age terminology because it makes little sense to myself. But if I were to read up on the mechanics of crystals – the way different minerals affect the electromagnetic spectrum, (or the force itself), not least with respect to polarisation – then that could give me some clues for a speculative theory.

On that subject – I just realised – I'm under the impression that Neolithic peoples in Britain had a habit of using quartz in their circles and burial mounds (the few I'm visited). Certainly interesting to wonder how that relates in spiritual terms, and especially curious as to whether the piezo-electric effect may be involved there.

[Talia]

Well so long as I'm not being trashed as well! I find some things work for me and some things don't that other people swear by. So I've always felt a bit of an outsider. I like using quartz as well, it seems a very pure crystal to use. And if the really ancient peoples used it then who am I to disagree that it's worth using? If they really were more sensitive to the earth then its worth learning from what they had and used. That way we won't romantisise them to much (she says being cheeky about brian's other topic.)

[Ryuuko]

Dear WHKeith,

Thank you for that post, and for the others that have posted on this topic up until now. If I can add my two cents, there seems to be a divide on this thread between the scientifically-minded and those who have used crystals and believe in their properties without scientific proof. As it was mentioned, who's right? Nobody! Both are. Let me add to that:

On one side, it's true that the healing properties of crystals has not been scientifically documented as of yet. I haven't seen any scientific papers showing empirical evidence demonstrating that amethyst cures people of hangovers, or that hematite is a good stress reliever. In this sense, I see it fit that those of you who prefer to base their beliefs in science would categorize crystals as "psychological aids".

On the other side, however, science does not offer any means of measuring energy, and hence, cannot offer empirical evidence of energy healing methods or tools. Until this is done, we are left with a matter of faith. You believe it or you don't, based on your experiences. But we're still left with cases of people using a specific crystal to heal a specific ailment either in themselves or on other people or animals. What do we do with those cases?

In my opinion, describing crystals as mere "psychological aids" is unjust. For the reasons mentioned above, there are quite a few things that science cannot explain, and to dismiss anything that cannot be scientifically proven at this time is a great fault. We are now discovering alternative methods of healing, such as Reiki and sound/color therapy, all of which deal with energy, and there are quite a few positive results in favor of these therapies, but the placebo effect theory is not applicable.

It was noted in your thread, WHKeith, that Amethyst was believed to prevent drunkenness and the dreaded hangover. While I haven't really tried this one out for myself (what a fun scientific experiment this sounds like! Any volunteers? ), it may very well be valid--the vibrational "signature" of Amethyst may produce the results we're looking for. All this talk about vibrational healing makes me think of my friend who's studying to be a homeopath. As you may or may not know, the scientific community has been up in arms about the validity of homeopathy as a valid form of treatment, since the remedy itself is so diluted there are only trace amounts of the actual remedy. I asked my friend how homeopathy works, and he said, in a nutshell, that what's left is the vibration of that medicine. I can see how THAT would make the scientific community go nuts! I believe Dr. Masaru Emoto's work with water crystals is a breaking point in scientifically demonstrating this.

One last thing: I can't help but notice how homeopathy has wonderful results with children and pets who cannot be affected by the placebo effect. This same friend of mine doesn't know much about crystals, but when he knows he'll be drinking, he'll take the nux vomica homeopathic medicine and he's fine. What I'm getting to is, I've used serpentine a number of times for muscle aches, and have also used it on pets, and all were relieved on muscle pain. I've also used Reiki on a horse that couldn't stand on her front legs and she could after two days of Reiki treatment. Science has a long way to go before it can explain energy healing, and I'm looking forward to that day. Until then, I think we need to keep a rational focus but still give credit to these methods of healing that have yet to be proven.

[I, Brian]

Good post, Ryuuko, and a fair summary of the subject.

[Sacredstar]

An excellent book on vibrational medicine written by Richard Gerber, MD. The book is based upon twenty years of nationally recognised research into alternative medical diagnosis and treatment and has become one of the definitive texts for energetic medicine.

Dr Gerber's encyclopedic treatment of subtle-energy fields, acupuncture, Bach flower remedies, crystals, radionics, chakra's, meditation, and homepathy has acheived wide spread acceptance as the textbook of choice for individuals, schools, and health-care institutions nationwide.

Publishers weekly said "This book is at the cutting edge of the whole health movement.

Kenneth R, Pelletier, Phd. UCSF School of Medicine author of Mind, as Healer, Mind as Slayer. Review of this book.

"Twenty-first century health care will be based upon the subtle energy principles and interventions involving mind, body and environmental, and spiritual dimensions which are so authoritatively documented in Vibrational Medicine. Clearly, this is a landmark book which is challenging, contraversial, and a brilliant tour de force of major historical and clinical significance. First published in 1988.

We now see many doctors embracing vibrational medicine. In the UK a healer-doctor network as been running for sometime. The young medical students of today are different, they have grown up in a different culture of CM and spirituality.

Last year at the 'Taste of Medicine' conference I was lecturing with a doctor who teaches these students to be doctors. He told us how they bring crystals to help them with their exams and that doctors are now being taught about complementary/vibrational medicine in their courses. We also discussed metaphysics and this he said was also an important aspect of healing mind, body and spirit.

There was a time when we believed the world was flat, until Geiger came along we didn't know that radiation existed, but it was always there and we were always affected by it. It was the invention of the achromactic microscope in 1830 by Joseph Jackson Lister that enabled his son to write his paper on antiseptic surgery. From this moment on we had proof that reality also exists in the invisible. Radio and televisions sets are also detecting and processing invisible energy frequencies. Scientists at the cutting edge now except that everything is an energy force operating at different frequencies.

Some scientists and rationalists are still trying to fit some metaphysical concepts into old models, and this just will not work in many cases; an example of this is remote viewing used by the CIA, Russian and Indian intelligence.

In the UK the Lords did a report on complementary medicine, the results being that therapies like Reiki and Spiritual Healing are now implementing self-regulation, and skills for health are working with trade bodies to introduce skills for health national occupational standards, so that these and many other CM therapies can be made available in the NHS due to public demand.

The Royal College at the behest of Prince Charles and integrated health as also set up a group of doctors to develop 'A New Spiritual Paradigm in Medicine'.

We live in exciting times on the brink of a whole new era in medicine and healthcare.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

[Sacredstar]

Dear Brian

You may be interested in the work of www.tillerfoundation.com here are their bio's.

Fellow to the American Academy for the Advancement of Science, Professor Emeritus William A. Tiller, of Stanford University’s Department of Materials Science, spent 34 years in academia after 9 years as an advisory physicist with the Westinghouse Research Laboratories. In his conventional science field he has published over 250 scientific papers, 3 books and several patents. In parallel, for the past 30 years, he has been avocationally pursuing serious experimental and theoretical study of the field of psychoenergetics which he thinks will become a very important part of "tomorrow’s" physics. In this new area, he has published to date, an additional 100 scientific papers and two seminal books.


Dr. Dibble received his Ph.D. in Geochemistry at Stanford University in 1980 and did post-doctoral studies with William Tiller in the department of Materials Science and Engineering until 1982. He worked in industry in engineering geology until 1997 when again he worked with Dr. Tiller as a visiting scholar at Stanford. Since then he has been employed at Ditron, LLC and the William A. Tiller Foundation for New Science conducting experiments using intention imprinted electronic devices. Fields of specialization include aqueous geochemistry, crystal growth, engineering geology and subtle energy research. He has published several scientific papers in the field of geochemistry and more recently in the newly emerging field of subtle energy.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Is it true that every computer as a crystal inside it and that a computer will not work without the crystal, but yet the scientists do not know why?

being love

Sacredstar

[Ryuuko]

Originally Posted by Sacredstar

Is it true that every computer as a crystal inside it and that a computer will not work without the crystal, but yet the scientists do not know why?

forgot about that one! Thanks for the reminder SacredStar!

[heavensblade23]

Originally Posted by Sacredstar

Is it true that every computer as a crystal inside it and that a computer will not work without the crystal, but yet the scientists do not know why?

Not true at all, it's just used to keep accurate time for a system clock, much like a watch.